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Anyone here good at ebaying? Specifically, international, high value ebaying from someone thousands of miles away with low feedback (3, though no negatives) and no credit card?
I bid, and to my surprise won, an auction for a camera from someone in Finland at perhaps half of what it is worth. The seller doesn't have terribly good English, though I spoke to him on the phone via a mobile.
The shipping is seriously expensive because the item is very heavy (about 140 Euros).
The seller says he is a film student and I am inclined to believe him, as he knows a nominal amount about film-making. The problems are: 1. he is a huge distance away, 2. the item is very expensive, 3. he doesn't have a paypal account of his own, so he wants me to send the money to his sister instead, 4. when I sent the money for the postage to his sister, she rejected it.
With the possible exception of the last one (though it could be a misunderstanding) nothing about him specifically rings alarm bells for me (and I am hopefully quite good at telling scammers as I once worked for an internet company that would encounter dozens a day). But am I justified:
i. on insisting that we use an escrow service such as escrow.com? (at huge expense, I might add - £30 for the transaction)
ii. on insisting that he pay up for the postage while my own money is kept by escrow.com (he keeps talking about his rent and how it is due on the 4th) instead of paypalling it separately to his sister?
iii. if things get out of hand and I get cold feet, am I under legal obligation to complete?
Has anyone been through something like that before?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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If you pay outside the eBay system then you lose all the protections that you have.
I suggest most strongly that you insist on paying by paypal. he can open an account in 5 minutes.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I've read the ebay/paypal regulations (the fine print) and they are far more stringent than you might have been led to believe.
Two points:
1. Paypal only offers protection on the transaction up to £120 (because of his low feedback rating). This thing costs four times that.
2. Ebay specifically recommend that you use escrow for transactions of greater than £250, and I'm doing it by the book by asking to use escrow.com, the escrow service they suggest.
Also there is the fact that he doesn't have a credit card. Even if he can open a Paypal account of his own without a credit card, Paypal barely offers any protection at all. If something went wrong, I would have to hope that Paypal could freeze his account and return the money -- very unlikely. Or resort to contacting the Finnish police. Whereas if I use escrow, I am at least on an equal footing.
Another point, though: do credit card companies disclaim all responsibility for the transaction when you pay for something through Paypal? I get the impression that they do, so I couldn't just raise a chargeback if something went wrong.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The go for the Escrow.
Why has he a low rating? Is he simply new, or doe she have a bad rating?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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iii A winning bid for an auction is a legaly binding contract.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It is. But sometimes it can be hard enforcing it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Both of you are right. However, I'm always (and often unnecessarily) anxious not to upset other people, and I'm not sure if I'm being manipulated by the man telling me he has to get the money to pay his rent, or whether I'm being a bastard for insisting on a payment method that will take a couple of weeks and extra hassle.
It doesn't help that he can only use public computers in the library, too, apparently, so the whole thing is proceeding at a snail's pace.
There's good reason to buy from people with good feedback. Not that this is actually bad feedback (3, all buys from other people), but he obviously hasn't used ebay much before.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I think insist in the payment method that guarantees the transacton. You can;t afford to lose the money. And he needs it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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You can't afford NOT to have protection in these circumstances. I accept that the vendor's explanation seems perfectly reasonable and credible, and it may well be so - but the very essence of a successful scam is to appear reasonable and credible. If the deal is genuine, he'll accept that you are being reasonable, too!!!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Sounds like escrow is your best bet. It could be that he IS just new to ebay and thus the low feedback but that in itself is a risk. Can you look at the other items he ebayed ? Was he the buyer or the seller in those transactions ? Not that that really matters too much because it looks like you are leading towards escrow. I mean his sister did deny the transaction. Too bad you don't speak finnish, that would make this probably a good deal easier.
Good Luck
david
Oh oh oh, what kind of camera is it ?
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Pay pal..... Any dope that trades thru E-Bay knows how easy it is to set up their own Pay-Pal Acct. Not taking this step is reason for hesitation.
The applicable question is: Did you know prior to the close of auction that he didnt have a Pay-Pal Acct?
Second Flag: Any college student saying he is without a computer in this day and age gives reason for pause.
You go to college... Could you survive a week without one?
On the other hand...... Everything could be Kosher......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Yes......
I'd like to know the type of camera as well.....
I see camera and video equipment all the time at the gov't auctions I frequent.
Perhaps I can help add to your arsenal.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I haven't checked the paypal countries list, but it is just possible that Finland is not on the list. But very unlikely.
All you need to set a paypal account up is a bank account. Credit cards are not required.
Paypal has made life really easy now, because it has enhanced its system so you don;t need to be a member any more in order to send money. It may be that Finland has currency conversion issues, but that is between buyer and seller. Allowances can be made for that.
Most people on eBay are honest. The few that are not usually work "fake cheque scams" rather than not supplying goods.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc:
>Pay pal..... Any dope that trades thru E-Bay knows how easy it is to set up their own Pay-Pal Acct. Not taking this step is reason for hesitation.
Mm, but I'm not sure how easy it is if you don't have a credit card, which he says he doesn't. (Which is odd in itself, but maybe it's not so common in mainland Europe as in the consumer-oriented UK.)
>The applicable question is: Did you know prior to the close of auction that he didnt have a Pay-Pal Acct?
No, I thought he did. I think in retrospect that it must have been his sister's that he linked his account to. Very strange, now I come to think of it, that he's been using her account without her permission.
>Second Flag: Any college student saying he is without a computer in this day and age gives reason for pause.
His own words:
"Hi and congratulations.
I have never heard of that escrow service so I have to check that out.Ill try to do it today if possible.My own computer is not working so I have to use librarys.
Ill get back to you
Toni"
It would ring alarm bells if he were a native English speaker, but I have spoken to him on the phone and his English isn't terribly good, so it is understandable.
I don't know for sure that he's a college student, incidentally -- only that he was one. He may be unemployed.
The camera is an Eclair NPR, a 16mm movie camera. Very desirable for a film-maker, but completely irrelevant (because it is hugely expensive to run) to everyone else. Plus he has convincing photographs of the contents. If you were going to try and scam someone, you would surely choose something with greater public interest. And he knows a bit about film-making, from what he said to me. Not a huge amount, but enough not to ring alarm bells.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Users in these countries and territories can withdraw funds to either a local or a US bank account.
Finland
[/snip]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It seems to me that, while this may well be a bargain, you have simple choices:- pay and wait for it to arrive
- go to finland on a cheap flight and collect it
- mutually cancel the deal
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Finland is on the list. It's not a typical country for scammers, but it's so far away I don't want to be put in a situation where I don't have at least an equal footing.
Whether he has can use Paypal or not is slightly beside the point, though, as it's still possible to scam with a Paypal account. Or maybe he doesn't have the technical skills to set one up (unlikely, but having seen the way my parents handle a computer I'd believe anything).
I'm going to insist on escrow. The only issue I can think of is that ebay ask that any transactions relying on escrow agree BEFORE the auction ends, which I didn't. So if he tells me point-blank, "Sorry, I can't accept escrow any more" it may escalate into a somewhat grim online argument with ebay being pulled in to moderate.
Of course, if he really is a scammer the last thing he'd want to do is involve ebay, so perhaps just the threat of having to talk to ebay about it would be a safety net.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Why exactly does this camera seem expensive to operate?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Finland IS pretty in the winter.........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A bit of advice.......
Any auction is a leap of faith.... It takes a strong stomach to wager the farm based on information which is always suspect....
As for myself.... I place my trust in the idea that MOST people are forthright in their business dealings....
But.... I never bid on a lot unless I am ready to set fire to that same cash that I intend to pay for the merchandise.
I just finalized an auction and when I arrived (in the rental chevy van) to pick up my purchases I (to my total ammazement) discovered that the item descriptions were a bit askew from the reality of what the 6 forklifts placed before me. The pile of merchandise totaled 200% of the volume of the van. It took kevin and myself 2 1/2 hours to unpack the boxes and piece-load the truck. People were staring out windows and pointing in wonderous ammazment as I squished in the last piece and kevy slammed the door closed.
Bottom line is that you just have to bite the bullet if you want the best deals.
An old auctioneer once afforded a bit of advice in saying : "Hope for the best but expect the worse".
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc:
>Why exactly does this camera seem expensive to operate?
Because the film costs about £100 per 400 feet (one load, or about 10 minutes), then another £150 or so for developing and telecine (scanning the results onto tape and/or computer for editing).
Not to mention servicing every couple of years at a couple of hundred pounds (depending on use).
That's something like 500 times more expensive than video.
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Aaargh! I think there are two options here
1. he is terminally stupid
2. he is a very persistant con man
Which one? I have no idea, but it is driving me up the wall.
Essentially we've reached a stalemate because I am not going to send any more Paypal money to an account that (i) doesn't belong to him and (ii) declined the transaction (and luckily returned the money) last time I tried to send him the cost of postage.
He says he has no money to post the item even though the whole point of escrow is that you get an assurance that it is waiting in trust for you, and aside from sending a cheque I can't get the money across to him outside the wretched escrow system either. He's so broke that he can't afford to spend the £90 it takes for the postage fees on the condition that he'll get it back in a week or so??
*bangs head against the wall*
The only straw left to me is the possibility that I could ask a nice international company like UPS to pick up the item for me. A little more expensive than I would have liked but at least I can trust them.
I've asked. Now all I can do is sit and palpitate.
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XXXXXXXXXX@kolumbus.fi wrote:
> Dear David Joy,
>
>
> This email confirms that Jenni XXXXXXXXXX has refused the 139.75 EUR you sent and no money has been transferred from your PayPal account.
>
> NOTE: If you used your bank account for this transaction, the money will be transferred back to your PayPal account within three to four days. If you funded this payment with a credit card, we have credited the amount back to your card.
>
> To view your PayPal balance or other account information, log in to your account at the PayPal website.
>
> Thank you for using PayPal!
> The PayPal Team
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> PayPal (Europe) Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom as an electronic money institution.
>
> PayPal Email ID PP282
>
>
>
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well it looks either like the guy is a dork or he is running a complex scam. Maybe ask the eBay security people if they have seen anything like this before.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm hoping he's just inexperienced with ebay and computers.
Things seem to be going well now: the escrow money is in place (taken off my credit card) and he's agreed to ship the item ASAP (either tomorrow or Monday if that's not possible).
I guess if he was planning on running away with the postage fee he wouldn't have accepted the escrow. After all, he won't get the money until after I receive the item (and know for sure whether he's a con or not).
David
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