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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A very good question.......
Does writing romantic poetry about a member of the same sex?
Does having had a romantic relationship?
Does having had sex?
Does flirting?
Does having spent most of their time in the company of other men (who may or may not have been homosexual)?
Does having been rumoured to be homosexual?
Does having had a sexual attraction to others of the same sex? (Note that all of the former could have occurred without that elusive sexual attraction.)
I believe the question was best answered by Christopher Isherwood...
Paraphrased..... Being gay is not the ability to make love to a man but to be IN love with a man.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Does that make a bisexual man gay? Or are we just splitting hairs over a word with too imprecise a meaning to be useful?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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To be "in love" with either a man or a woman comes with it the issue of fidelity.
The gate might swing both ways but it has to settle to a stop eventually.
If a person presents his/her self as bisexual and enters into a loving, committed relationship it depends on the sex of the mutually selected partner.
Of course if the person fools around while in such a relationship the degree os committment becomes suspect..... but this applies for any so called committed relationship..... gay or str8.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Mr Isherwood and I concur. 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Said Marc,
>The gate might swing both ways but it has to settle to a stop eventually.
>If a person presents his/her self as bisexual and enters into a loving, committed relationship it depends on the sex of the mutually selected partner.
Mm, but no-one has ever claimed that married straight men never look twice at a beautiful woman, or that partnered gay men never look at a good looking man.
And a bisexual man may still be attracted to both sexes even in a committed relationship.
Even the most perfect relationships do come to an end eventually (even if it's by the death of one partner) and surely the mark of a bisexual man (using love as a guide) is that he could (not necessarily will, but could) go on to love a person of a different sex.
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Can a man who considers himself bisexual, who enters into a commited relationship with a man still be referred to as bisexual?
Surely the urge of being bisexual would negate the 'committed' element?
I've always thought that to be truly bisexual must be a nightmare compared with being gay. It would be forever a life of turmoil.
I'd personally rather not be gay, given the choice, but I'm happier being gay than in denial, trying to believe I'm bisexual, rather than gay.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Everyone looks....... Everyone...... but it is not the attraction that matters in the least.....
It is taking that action.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Mike.g wrote:
> Can a man who considers himself bisexual, who enters into a commited relationship with a man still be referred to as bisexual?
Of course he can "refer " to his bisexuality..... Just as a str8 couple can refer to their str8ness or a gay couple for that matter...... It is the fidelity of the relationship that draws the line that causes one not to act on that alternate desire.
>
> Surely the urge of being bisexual would negate the 'committed' element?
An urge does not constitute infidelity. Action on the urge does.
>
> I've always thought that to be truly bisexual must be a nightmare compared with being gay. It would be forever a life of turmoil.
I always figured it increases the playing field..... Not that I speak from experience..... I prefer outies.
>
> I'd personally rather not be gay, given the choice, but I'm happier being gay than in denial, trying to believe I'm bisexual, rather than gay.
No sane person would "rather be gay"...... But when it happens, butterflies soar high and blue birds fly....
I wouldn't change who I am for anything.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Mike.g:
>I've always thought that to be truly bisexual must be a nightmare compared with being gay. It would be forever a life of turmoil.
Why should there be any more turmoil than being straight or being gay? In any case you would constantly be coming across people you found attractive. If you were already in a relationship you would have to ignore them (and I don't see why a sex should suddenly become far more alluring if you were in a relationship with a different one); and if you were not, then you would be able to judge that person on their merits, not their sex. In fact, if you look at it that way then a bisexual person is much more free to pursue a relationship with anyone than to restrict him- or herself to just male or female.
There would be turmoil if you were bisexual and someone said to you, "You have to choose one sex and one sex only," but in real life you don't choose the sex. You choose the person.
>I'm happier being gay than in denial, trying to believe I'm bisexual, rather than gay.
I don't mean to be rude, but there's an insinuation there that I resent: that being bisexual is a cop-out for people who don't want to admit they are gay. Largely because I, myself, labelled myself gay about a year ago and have now found that actually the label doesn't really seem to fit terribly well. So in fact I am now coming at it from the other direction: I was in denial that I could be bisexual, and now I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. That's why I dislike labels.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You may dislike labels but they are there.....
Everything has its place and its name.....
Why does it matter wether you are gay or bi or str8 for that matter?
Until you find someone you are attracted 3enough to to act on that attraction the entire set of platitudes are moot.
It is important for you to be yourself.... for yourself.... never mind trying to fit into a nitch.... especially being so young and only just begining to sample what life has to offer.
I have known which peg I hung my hat on since I was about 10 or so. It never occured to me that I tended to be different from the other boys. I was just happy being who I was enjoying what I enjoyed.
True, my orientation became an issue as I entered high school but that had nothing to do with how I felt.... It was all about what THEY feared.
I remained true to my convictions because they were what defined me as a person.
The reality of your convictions will in all good time define who you are and where youre place in this world lies.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote (quoting Deeej):
> Does writing romantic poetry about a member of the same sex? Does having had a romantic relationship? Does having had sex? Does flirting? Does having spent most of their time in the company of other men (who may or may not have been homosexual)? Does having been rumoured to be homosexual? Does having had a sexual attraction to others of the same sex? (Note that all of the former could have occurred without that elusive sexual attraction.) He then added: I believe the question was best answered by Christopher Isherwood... Paraphrased..... Being gay is not the ability to make love to a man but to be IN love with a man.
I think that most of the responses so far miss the mark. What makes a person gay is their sexual orientation, and when push comes to shove only the gay person himself (or herself) can know this for sure. In that sense being gay is subjective. If a person's natural and unconscious attraction is towards members of their own sex that person is prima facie gay.
Behaviour has nothing to do with it. A person can act as str8 as they come: that will not change their orientation. They can be married to a member of the opposite sex and have six grandchildren: that will not change their orientation. Conversely, a str8 person can act as gay as can be (whetever that means) but that will not change their heterosexual orientation.
So Isherwood is probably right. But, being in love too is subjective, so it 'proves' nothing. Honest self-awareness is the only certain answer.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I almost entirely agree with Marc's paraphrase of Christopher Isherwood, except insofar as love does not always endure, and I can't accept that if and when a loving relationship comes to an end both parties retain a label for life.
I agree with Deeej that if a person is genuinely bisexual, it is perfectly possible to move from a loving relationship with someone of one sex to an equally loving relationship with someone of the other.
Fidelity is a moral concept and has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Looking at attractive girls as well as attractive boys doesn't compromise fidelity in any way.
Like Deeej, I'm not really happy with the implication thatthere is some kind of 'pretence' in claiming to be bisexual. OK, I accept that lots of people make that claim as a protective, or even self-deceptive, gesture - but then lots of guys stay in the closet, but it doesn't change who they are. All I can say is that after being actively gay throughout my teens and early twenties, I fell in love with a girl. I have a family whom I love unconditionally, and I'm unwaveringly monogomous, but in recent years I have felt the need for gay contact. If anything were to happen to my wife, I doubt very much whether I would seek another relationship but - as things stand - if I did, it would very probably be gay.
If I review my history analytically, I'd have to admit that I am instinctively gay, but I found a genuine, loving heterosexual relationship. I have no reason to suppose that the same sort of thing can't happen 'in reverse', with an essentially str8 guy falling for another male. Why should it matter, anyway? Don't we all have the right to be what we want to be, so long as pursuit of our own freedom doesn't deprive someone else of theirs?
Oh, and this label business. Well, labels are an essential tool of communication; it simply does no good to worry about them too much. What matters is not how others define you, but how you define yourself.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marc wrote:
> To be "in love" with either a man or a woman comes with it the issue of fidelity.
>
I disagree
One may be wholly in love without either being faithful if in a relationship or without there being a relationship at all.
I believe the subjects of being "in love" and "fidelity" are not linked in any way save by society's pressures.
One cannot choose with whom one falls in love, but one can choose fidelity. It is the matter of being able to choose itself which disconnects them
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Now my life is more complicated.
I fell in love with a boy. I also fell in love with a girl. Male bodies arouse me sexually. Female bodies do not. I fall in lust with males, never females.
The riddle (if it is important at all) is "What am I?"
And the answer is the answer I define it to be. "Eventually, and after much thought, I realised I am gay."
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Fidelity is an issue of relationships.
Not orientation......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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When push comes to shove you have penetration.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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True.........
Love does not always endure.......
Sometimes it is ripped from us by parties unknown and we are left alone to try and pick up the pieces.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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It depends upon what you mean by love. You can say that you are 'in love' with someone even if that person is unaware of it. In that sense, I would accept that love and fidelity are pretty well unconnected. I don't really think that such 'unrequited love' is quite the same as the love which develops within a loving relationship, and in the latter situation I'd suggest that infidelity implies a breaking down of that love.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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But love does indure. Sometimes the object of your love is taken from you, or outside forces prevent you from being withthe person you desire. And yes you wind up picking up the pieces, but the love doesnt die, its always there. You might hide it or bury it, but its there. If you love someone without question, that love can never go away.
Ok enough sop
PS the difference between a best friend and a lover! Is a heartbeat
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Is that what you call a penetrating observation???? 
