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I can only speak for myself but I am sure this fits many guys. When I got married in the 60’s my knowledge of gay and bi was virtually zero. It wasn’t until I got a computer did I learn that there were others like me. Much too late to do anything about my past choices. I am married and a father and married and a father I will stay.
I don’t understand how many of the gay and bi guys who are out feel that everyone who is in the closet should come out. Or why many of the gay guys look down on guys who are bi.
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Navyone wrote:
>(snip)
> I don’t understand how many of the gay and bi guys who are out feel that everyone who is in the closet should come out. Or why many of the gay guys look down on guys who are bi.
I honestly think it must be rather difficult for *anyone* at *either* extreme of sexual orientation to be able to empathise with those that are not. And for some people who are only and have only ever been 100% gay I think there can perhaps be a case where they've had to fight so hard for recognition (by self and others), and feel that they've fought against a "temptation" to "sell out" by pretending bisexuality, that they find it difficult to realise that there are many people for whom bisexuality of various degrees is natural.
In these kinds of issues, the notions of "gay", "bi", "straight" do everyone a disservice, I think: I prefer the idea of scales (useful stuff on the Kinsey and Klein scales on http://www.technostud.com/public/newsite/klein.html ).
As regards "comming out", I certainly don't think that any pressure should be put on anyone whose life circumstances are that they feel it would be difficult to leave the closet. But there are degrees of this, and *for me* - although I accept it is obviously different for others - it would be a real barrier to having an intimate relationship with anyone if I did not feel able to be free about my sexual history both same-sex and opposite-sex.
But you say that When I got married in the 60’s my knowledge of gay and bi was virtually zero. It wasn’t until I got a computer did I learn that there were others like me. . For me, this kind of thing was a major factor in my decision to come out - the more of us that feel able to do so, the fewer people will find themselves in the position you found yourself in. However, it's personal choice for everyone!
For what it's worth, I've been fully out for over 25 years, with no regrets. I self-identify as "gay" - which is not to say that I did not in my youth have successful and rewarding relationships with women ... and as I'm currently single, I don't rule out the possibility that my next relationship may be opposite-sex ... although I think it's fairly unlikely!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I was a teenager in the 60s. I never associated my lingings with being gay. I married knowing I had these longings, not for "convenience" but because love struck me. Love does not respect gender.
The advent of public access to th einternet and web sites allowed me to accept my homosexuality as just that. But I was perturbed to find that "real gay men" objected to my having married a woman, remained married to her, and fathered a son.
It was a great relief to find other married gay men. None of us are in similar relationships. Being gay does put a strain on marriage, too.
If we are unfaithful we tend to be so with other men. The risks associated with this are high. I could accept risks for me, but not for my wife. Married fidelity is thus a matter of necessity as well as trust.
Your coming out point: If you are in a position where it is a social or career advantage to do so then coming out is easier. Pop singers come out with impunity and massive rises in ratings! But coming out is really a personal issue. Look, for example at Derrick Peterson. He may or may not be gay. His orientation is highly irrelevant to his abilities as a runner. But he came out and then "uncame out". He found it was not the positive per9osnal experience he hoped for, probably. And he may have simply been "A late experimenter" rather than gay or bi.
Casper, Wyoming has a gay mayor. http://tinyurl.com/9wrns tells you something about him. For him, even in a state as allegedly gay-hostile as Wyoming, being out seems to have been perosnally important.
Here, in the UK, it is not in my interest to be out and gay. It would affect my consultancy business adversely, and it is not relevant information for anyone exceopt me and those I choose to know. I choose them for different reasons, but always for me.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I been reading the answers and stuff that everybody has to say. As far as coming our or being outted. I cant because If I did, I couldnt walk down the halls of my school and life would be really bad, even dangerous. I am out to my two best friends. When I go to college I may or may not come out. Timmy is right, its my choice. Im 100% gay, girls dont do nothin for me at all. I have no problem with anybody being married as long as its not to cover up being gay, or to have something to hide behind while they fool around at the park with other men. (we have a park here, and guys are getting busted right and left for soliciting other men. guess what? 90% of them are married.
As far as being bi. Ive heard a saying "Bi now, gay later". they are also called fence sitters. They dont know which way to fall. You could have a relationship with some one who is bi and the next theing you know, they are off with some woman, or visa versa. Watch Torch Song Trilogy.
If you fall in love with a female and get married be truthfull to her. Dont cheat, dont have a man on the side and think your doing right. Timmy is honest and faithful to his wife. His son has got to be so lucky, not to just have a father (i have no idea who mine is), but to have a father who will understand him, support him, and be there for him. Ive seen so many boys at school whoes dads want them to be carbon copies of themselves. These boys are the jocks and butt heads that make my life and others like me misserable.
Well I rambled again. I might have girl FRIENDS, but not ever a girlfriend, that im gonna marry. As far as the computer goes. I got a boyfriend now and I met him on line, and yes, we have met in person and we live about 20 miles from each other. I dont know if he is the one Ill spend my life with, we will just have to see what develops.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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The best of luck, Brian!
I hope your boyfriend realizes how very lucky he is!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I've got to take issue with what you say about bisexuals.
OK, I accept that a fair number of gays hide behind the bisexual label, some consciously and some unconsciously; I think that most of them are probably trying to deceive themselves rather than to mislead others. I can't get too uptight about this - I think these guys need to be judged more by the way they act than by what they call themselves.
That doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as a genuine bisexual. I think I probably was one. Growing up in a rural backwater in the Scottish Borders, there wasn't much to do except things we shouldn't - and I was very keen on those! I had my first sexual experience with a girl (just the touchy, feely kind) when I was about seven. I was enthusiastic for a repeat performance and can honestly say that I never thought about sex with another boy. There were several other episodes over the next five years, but by the time I was twelve, there were no girls around my age still living in the village. (Anyone who says they left to get away from me ... may possibly be correct!). Out of the blue, without any premeditation, I was playing with another kid about a year younger than I was and, being uncontrollably horny, I cunningly encouraged him into the touchy-feelys. It was great, and it seemed perfectly natural to me; we played sex games with each other for a couple of years or so, though I still had the odd hetero experience arising from school contacts in the nearby town. When I was fourteen, I was 'abused' by one of my Scout leaders; I put 'abused' in quotation marks necause I was an entirely willing participator and was over the moon at my good fortune. I continued to have only male-male relationships until I was in my mid-twenties, latterly a six-year relationship which broke up when my boyfriend decided he wanted to be str8. We parted on good terms - no point in doing otherwise - and I drifted for a couple of years, with brief flirtations with partners of both sexes, until I met and fell in love with the girl who became my wife. Throughout all this time I never thought of myself as anything but a guy who enjoyed sex. I also had your gentle disposition, and I don't think I ever misled or hurt anyone; if a relationship with someone of either sex endured for more than a couple of weeks I would avoid other relationships until that relationship came to an end by mutual consent.
My point here is that I wasn't hiding from anything; I just enjoyed whatever came along. In later years, after bringing up a couple of great kids (now both through uni) I began to look back on my life, and I realised that although I still looked at attractiove girls, I much preferred to look at attractive boys. It wasn't even wishful thinking; as I've said many times before, I'm absolutely committed to the concept of fidelity, even though my wife now knows all about my past - but hey, I can look, can't I?
In retrospect, I suspect that if I'd become involved in gay sex before I dabbled elsewhere, I'd probably have stayed gay throughout my life - but I didn't, and until I married I was totally undiscriminating as regards the sex of anyone to whom I was attracted. So I think I qualified as a genuine bisexual!
I've set out the above history just to demonstrate that I have some experience of what I'm talking about, even if I now think of myself as gay. So, to come to the crunch, gays suffer a great deal because the str8 'majority' chooses not to understand them - whether through religious bigotry or for any of a hundred other reasons. There's no doubt about the side of the fence I choose to fight on, but as an oppressed minority I think we should make an extra-special effort to avoid oppressing any other minority. And if someone is genuinely bisexual, phrases like 'Bi today, gay tomorrow' are certainly hurtful. Bi-guys with any sense of commitment can be as faithful as anyone else!
Brian, sorry to go on at you! You are a great guy, with a great sense of humour which I very much enjoy prodding into action (Or reaction!). You deserve much more joy from life than you appear to have, and I truly hope that you find the guy of your dreams!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I don't get the argument about bisexuals, Brian:
>As far as being bi. Ive heard a saying "Bi now, gay later". they are also called fence sitters. They dont know which way to fall. You could have a relationship with some one who is bi and the next theing you know, they are off with some woman, or visa versa. Watch Torch Song Trilogy.
-
And if you are in a relationship with a gay guy, he can't suddenly be off with some other man? Or would it somehow hurt less? (if you are thinking statistically here, don't. I will counter that argument most vehemently  )
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The question loosely was, why do gay men mostly dislike or look down on bisexual males. I have no experience in this area really, since I dont know any bisexual males, at least that I know of. But I do talk to my web friends and listen in on chat rooms and pretty much nose around. What I said is what I hear, what others say. As far as gay relation go, Ive got more than my share of hurt and agony in that dept. even to the point of a 38 special..so Im not trying to compair, but giving the general attatude of most of the gay guys I deal with on the web.
Oh thanks guys for wishing me well. He is super neat and things are going good so far. ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Okies. I do happen to know a bisexual male - close friend of mine. However, I just don't see the argument above as valid, altho I have heard it before.
As for "hearsay" and "what people say", there is an excellent point made in the "Sword of Truth" book series, if you have read it.
Forgive my ignorance, what is a 38 special? (I do get the general idea, tho)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A .38 Special is a hand gun.....
Small, light weight...... Relativly accurate at short distances...
Very accurate at 1 inch.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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38 police special=revolver
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... reminds me of something else. What is it, now? Ah, yes, it's just the same as the view of gays you get from aggressive str8s!
C'mon, Brian - don't condemn until you have reason to do so from personal experience! And, even then, bear Silfer's comments in mind - is he a bad guy BECAUSE he's bi, or a bad guy who just happens to be bi?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I didnt think I was condeming anybody, If I came accross like that then i appologise. I just stated the opinions of gays I have met in other places when ever the subject of bi men comes up. I know that in a lot of cases scociety has forced gay men to, wear a beard, I think is a phrase used. I guess Im not old enough yet to understand how someone can like sex with either a man or woman. What I object to are gay men who will use a female to hide their true nature. Im as screwed up as any gay teen. How I feel might change in the future, nothing is carved in stone.
Cossie, Im glad you make me laugh. I tend to brood a bit. dont ever be afraid to jump on my case, I sure dont want to be treated with kid gloves. Kinda like Timmy and the s..... word, aint gonna use that again. ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Sorry to rattle your cage, brat! I accept that gays who pretend to be bi can cause a lot of heartache; my point is that gays should avoid painting bisexuals with a brush dipped in their own prejudices just as str8s should show the same courtesy to gays!
Wrap up warm, and have a good day!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Tis quite ok - I just wanted to kill your argument before it got the time to grow into a prejudice
Aha, oki. Here guns are harder to come by, but plenty of bridges and such. Anyway, point taken. Been there myself, but not too seriously.
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