|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
THE MEN WITH THE PINK TRIANGLE
by Heinz Heger
ISBN # 1-55583-006-4
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've been there, in the camp just outside Berlin, walking along the now rusty ovens, through the torture chambers and the "Leichkeller" below the "Pathologie" rooms. Our brothers were there, once, together with other "Untermenschen".
It's still a place of hell - and of contemplation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
I was there once as well.....
It left me cold..... inside.....
It reminded me of another place that I visited years before.....
For months afterward it haunted me....
Kevin tells me I still frighten him when I get the night horrors....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What frightens me is that this never seems to end. Today Sachsenhausen is but a museum, with most of the buildings removed. But there are still the notorious Abu Graeb prison and the Guantanamo base and other places of horror and death - and the sickening stories in the media about harassment, assaults and abuse, where children and teenagers are the victims.
Evidently, many of the perpetrators during WW2 were ordinary people who, for some reason, had abandoned all principles of moral behaviour. I used to have an elderly married couple as neighbours. They were nice, friendly and respectable, and his job had been one which led to frequent appearances in the local media. However, it was never a secret to those who knew them well, that they still kept their WW2 nazi uniforms and their old pictures, and that they had never expressed any regrets about their past.
Evil has many faces, but it is evil, nevertheless. Unfortunately, it seems that we may all run the risk of being caught in its nest, unless we are vigilant. Hopefully, I'll have the wisdom and courage to identify and addess its demons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust of European Jewry and sentenced to three years in prison.
He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989.
"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital.
Irving appeared stunned by the sentence, and told reporters: "I'm very shocked and I'm going to appeal."
Read the full article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
An odd law, but as the descendant of a Vienese jew who fled the nazis I am in sympathy with Austria's law.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
This is absolutly assenine.
To be sent to prison for saying something went the way of the Berlin Wall and what lay behind.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Im probly gonna get yelled at and told off, but I guess its cause I live in a country where a person can voice his opinion about whatever he wants with out being jailed or going to prison for saying it. The woman in the article was right, its censorship plain and simple. Nobody has to listen to what he says or writes and they sure dont have to believe him. I cant imagine anyone who would deny that it happened, but then the world is full of strange people (my relatives are living proff of that). Then to, what do I know.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
It comes down to the law of the land.
He made those remarks in the full knowledge that it was against the law.
He was prosecuted under that law and jailed.
If the Austrians thought it was a bad law they would have repealed it. They have democratic elections as well as anyone else in the world and are capable of repealing as well as passing laws.
If other nations feel it is bad law they may press the Austrians (and the Germans) to repeal such laws. That is global politics.
But this man committed an illegal act, and has felt the force of the law.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How bizarre...
I could have sworn I posted a long comment about this thread but it seems to have vanished. Maybe I inadvertently closed the window before posting. (?)
Brian, I agree with you that people shouldn't be locked up simply for holding an opinion. But in the case of David Irving, there are a number of factors to take into account:
i. that he is a seriously nasty piece of work. He is a Nazi sympathiser, a proven historical revisionist, wrote books on Hitler and his cronies showing them in a good light, has links with neo-Nazi groups, viciously attacked Winston Churchill and so on
ii. that he has ostentatiously made his racist views against Jews and non-whites known, with the purposes of causing offence
iii. that he denied the existence of the Holocaust (the main subject at hand)
iv. and finally, that he was banned from entering quite a number of countries, and that he went to Austria despite a warrant for his arrest -- and, surprise, surprise, was arrested. If he didn't want to be arrested, he should have stayed out!
Have a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving
Frankly, I think he deserves everything that's coming to him. It's quite one thing having unpleasant views, but pushing them onto others under the guise of a "historian" shows no respect for history or for other people.
Whether or not he deserves to be locked up is almost academic. The UK does not have holocaust denial laws. But if he goes to another country, then he is subject to its laws, for better or worse. Full stop.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
As far as the holocaust goes...
I think the pitty us drum has been beaten enough.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I rather think that is not the point about why the Austrians and Germans have each this law. It can be argued that the law is now an anachronism, but , when it was passed, Austria was fearful of a new resurgance of nazism. It thus made sure that incorrect propaganda was unlawful, as did Germany.
The law has nothing whatsoever to do with pitying anyone.
It is, instead, to prevent anyone rewriting history.
If it is now irrelevant then it shoudl be repealed by those whose law it is.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If by the "'pity us' drum" you refer to laws such as this one, then I do not think it will have "been beaten enough" until the wounds have healed, and that will take more time. A number of the people persecuted in the Holocaust are still alive and it is highly insensitive when people deliberately write things that they know will offend those people and their relatives. While I don't necessarily agree with the law, I agree with its spirit: that of preventing people from making light of one of the most horrific events in human history.
While obviously I cannot speak for all Jewish people, those people of Jewish descent that I know have done anything but sought pity. They are hard-working and intelligent and the UK has been positively enriched by their contribution to our culture.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
As far as the holocaust goes... I think the pitty us drum has been beaten enough.
I don't think it's a case of "pity us"; I think it's a case of "pity them" (the original victims). As long as we permit holocaust deniers to go unchallenged we run the risk of permitting new victims in the future. Look at the president of Iran: Irving is not alone.
One other thought. If - God forbid - some enemy we to wipe out one third of the citizens of the United States do you not think that the survivors might be justified in taking every possible precaution to see that such a monstrous evil was never again perpetrated upon them? It took Pearl Harbor to get the USA into WW II - and that ended with Hiroshima.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Should we have waited a year after pearl harbor?
Should we have committed to a war that we were not dorectly involved a year sooner?
I wonder.....
Should the Isralis give the Palsetinians back their country?
I wonder.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
JFR wrote:
> One other thought. If - God forbid - some enemy we to wipe out one third of the citizens of the United States do you not think that the survivors might be justified in taking every possible precaution to see that such a monstrous evil was never again perpetrated upon them?
It was not the holocaust survivors per se who took these steps. It was ordinary, decent Germsn and ordinary and decent Austrians who saw the horror of committing jews, cripples, mentally ill, homosexuals, gypsies, blacks and any other random targets that were not "required" in society to camps and to death, and decided that no historian, no person, no-one at all would ever lawfully be able to sweep this under the carpet in their countries.
This has nothing to do with Pearl Harbour, nor the USA's entrance date into the second world war. It has to do with two nations who were "in charge" of the holocaust agreeming with their populations that this awful episide has a legitimate place in history, and that it is important enough to make denial of it a criminal offence.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
Should the Isralis give the Palsetinians back their country?
Ask Kevy who lived in that country first. The Jews were forcibly expelled from their country by the Romans (Italians); the Byzantines wrested it from the Romans; the Mamelukes wrested it from the Byzantines; the Crusaders wrested it from the Mamelukes; Saladin wrested it from the Crusaders; the Turks wrested it from Saladin's heirs; the British wrested it from the Turks. In all those 2000 years not one of those powers gave any kind of independence or recognition to the local population, which consisted of Arabs and Jews (Moslems, Christians, Jews, Druse, Circassians etc). In the Turkish census towards the end of the 19th century there were more Jews living in Jerusalem than Arabs!
The United Nations decided to return the land to the Jews and ordered partition. The Jews agreed to share it with the Arabs. The Arabs (seven independent nations) rejected the offer, attacked the infant State of Israel - and lost (1948-1949). The State of Israel survived. The Arabs tried to strangulate Israel; Israel struck back and won - in six days (1967). The Arabs (again four independent states with assistance from others) attacked Israel and again they lost (1973).
It was only in the 1960's that we began to hear of a Palestinian people. Nearly one million "Palestinians" - Arabs of three religions - are citizens of the State of Israel and do NOT want to be part of a future Palestinian state: they are represented in the Israeli parliament and in the various echelons of government. (They are excused conscription into the armed forces because the Jews don't want to force the Arab citizens to fight against their brethren; however the whole of the Druze community decided to make service in Israel's military compulsory and many Druze soldiers have become high-ranking officers in the Israeli army - to this very day.)
Fifteen years ago Israel entered into the "Oslo process" whereby the Palestinian Authority was created. (For doing so Yitshak Rabin lost his life to a Jewish fanatic.)
Since then Israel has recognized the American "Road Map" and has officially acknowledged that the ultimate objective is "two states for two peoples". Israel even voluntarily (and with great heartbreak for many of its citizens) evacuated the Gaza strip as a first stage in the implementation of the Road Map. According to the Road Map, reciprocally, the Palestinians were to put an end to all terrorism. They have not. Instead they elected the terrorists to their parliament and they will form a government.
So, Marc, why should Israel "give back" to the Palestinians 'gratis' what has never belonged to them in the first place. Sooner or later there will arise a Palestinian State - just as soon as the Palestinians agree to play ball with Israel. That state will arise long before the US and Canada return north America to the American Indians.
Enough. I really don't want to continue this issue here because it is quite off topic for this Board. In all the years I have been visiting this board I have never raised the issue. I would be happy to continue the discussion with you off board, Marc ... but you don't like e-mail  .
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Puhleeeeeeeeze......
Absolutly correct, I don't like E-Mail.....
And if you wanted to continue this elsewhere you would not have placed this here.....
Soooooooooooooooooooooooo..........
what you are saying is that the first person to set up shop in an area has claim over it forever.....
Give me a break....
The only reason the Brittish gave up their control was because of all the "look at us and all we had to endure" whinning after WWII.
Land belongs to who so ever holds it....
Fact..... The majority of the situation in the middle east is a direct result of this usurption.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
