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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What constitutes a friendship?
What are the rules?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Is it friendship if you know no real-life details about a person and can only communicate through an indirect method such as an internet messageboard?
Is it a friendship if it is not reciprocated?
For that matter, can you be friends with a fictional person (as happens from time to time, unfortunately, on the internet)?
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I dont know if this is for everyone. I have a best friend, he knows im gay but he dont care. He always tell me the truth and wont hesitate to tell me when im wrong, or praise me when Im right. Hes the one who will comfort me when im sad and laugh with me when im happy. and all this I do for him too. I saw a saying on a web site once.
Friends! Are two hearts singing the same song, so if one forgets the words, the other can remind him.
the difference between a best friend and a lover? Is a single heart beat.
Because you havent met someone in real life, doesnt mean they cant be a friend. They are the ones, even just typing on a computer, that wont hesitate to tell you your wrong, tell you the truth. The one who will listen and try and give you advice. I think even over the internet you can tell where someones heart is.
Cossie is my friend, and Deeeej, I like you a lot. It doesnt mater who you are, it only maters that you care and you make me smile. Mark, Timmy, all the others are my friends too.
Cossie (at the risk of getting another long thread going) said he was trying to be a grandfather to me, and I wish he could be my grandfather. Even tho he is only words on a screen hes my friend. Marc is my friend too, even tho they dont always get along all the time, still they listen and talk with me.
Ok, on a soap box again.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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What consitutes friendship?"
For me - and I think that everyone will have their own views on this! - a "close friend" is pretty much as Brian has described. Or - if I got into a terrible emotional state, could I just turn up on their doorstep at 3am? Would they feel free to turn up on mine? Do I actually feel happy and elated when they have a success - a promotion, a new boyfriend, whatever, and do they feel the same for me? Close friends are unique and irreplaceable.
I'm lucky enough to have three people who are "close friends" like that - and I don't think there are any rules. Maybe expectations get built up, but that's a bit of a different issue.
Then there's "situational friends" - people that I'm close to in a specific context. Like "work friends", who I have no desire to meet outside a work context. So that is structured into the basis of the relationships - the "rules". And there tend to be "no-go" areas (such as discussing work policies where I have been directed to a course of corporate action that I do not personally support). Thinking about it, these are pretty simlar to the friendships I had at school, at least until my last couple of years ... they were friendships, but kind of hibernated during school holidays etc, and there were definitely personal things that we didn't feel free to talk about! And, in general, "situational friends" are people that I have not bothered / managed to keep in touch with when I change jobs, or move away, or whatever ... other than perhaps a yearly Christmas card.
I guess that "internet friends" for me would probably come into this area. And if they turn out not to be what they claimed, well, that's a risk with any kind of friend (I've been in the difficult situation of having to fire a "work friend", on the grounds that she had stolen in excess of £15,000 from the company ... yes, it hurts).
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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i think brian sums it all up for me.
the guy who stole £15k is not a real freind as he let you down and all the people who work for your company NW>
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I think this is within the same thread. Internet friends...does it really matter who they are or what they are? You become friends because of their willingness to listen, to try and help, to just talk and make you feel better, give you a chance to get away. I think what you become friends with is the idea, the spirit of the person. all you guys make life at home better. The chances of us ever meeting is slim and none. But when I grow up and maybe get a chance to go to England, Ill let you all know and maybe we can all meet for tea, coffiee, or a beer, who knows.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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A friendship is some"where" you and another person can share joys and sorrows, and feel wanted and needed for just being you. It respects frailties and a friend is unafraid to speak when the other is being either a fool or wonderful. In friendship you are accepted with all faults and all perfections.
Rules? True friendship has no rules or conditions. It just endures. It may dwindle if both parties to it do not work on it, but it should be able to rekindle too.
I have a friend where the friendship has dwindled. I am ready and able to rekindle it whenever he needs, but he and I have drifted apart. When last we spoke I learnt all my faults as he perceived them, yet I am still his friend. That is an example, I suppose.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, it's interesting.
Brian:
>Internet friends...does it really matter who they are or what they are? You become friends because of their willingness to listen, to try and help, to just talk and make you feel better, give you a chance to get away.
A psychotherapist is willing to listen, to try and help, to just talk and make you feel better, give you a chance to get away. Is a therapist a friend?
I think one needs to take into account motivation. In the case of a therapist, it is primarily money. It's a professional relationship. And to a certain extent, so too are any that involve a person being paid to spend time with you -- priests, doctors, teachers and co-workers. Sometimes a professional relationship turns to genuine friendship, but it does not happen that often -- professional pressures get in the way. Spending time with those people outside beyond professional requirements doesn't necessarily mean they are friends. Often it has more to do with selfish things such as opportunism or curiosity.
I guess I'm being very specific here, but I do think that the word "friend" is bandied around a little too much, especially online. My personal definition of friendship requires that both parties are prepared to give whatever is required -- be it advice, time, even money -- regardless of cost, without remuneration, at times of need. The only requirement is that the person they are helping should be absolutely prepared to do the same if the situation were reversed.
I guess you can only really know the strength of a friendship at times of crisis, and by how much each party is willing to sacrifice to keep it.
I'm often a little suspicious of people's motivations on the internet. Sometimes (and I categorically DON'T refer to anyone here) people will help, but only up to a point. They will give advice, but only when it suits them. They profess friendship, but their motivations for doing so are entirely selfish -- they do it to feel better about themselves. When somebody else suffers a crisis, they disappear, or cannot devote the time to console that person. When you elevate someone to the status of a friend, you should be prepared to drop everything and help when their well-being depends on it.
It's not by any means a bad thing to give advice, therapist-style, on a board such as this. It's just important that those receiving it keep their perception of the relationship in perspective.
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You are right Deeeej, And really that is what I was getting at. Its give and take on both sides, I didnt intend for it to be one sided. That would be like one sided love. My point is that if you become friends on the net, I dont think that whats physical is important. Ihave friends on line and I have aquaintences and some are just very casual. Only tiome can tell if someone is a real friend.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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David, you decide to come out of hidding? ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian,
Absolutely, I agree with you. The problem is that, on the internet, it's very difficult to measure the amount of committment that the other party is prepared to put in. Sometimes you meet people you talk to for hours, off and on, for weeks, and you start classifying them as a friend -- then suddenly they disappear, and you never know what went wrong. It's happened to me once or twice, and I'm never sure if it was something I did or not.
As you say, only time can tell. The good thing about this board is that it has a core of people who have been here for a long time. So you can be sure that they're not messing around with other people's lives arbitrarily.
Deeej
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I could write one of my infamous dissertations about this but as it's Marc's thread I wouldn't dare!
I think we all tend to use the word loosely to cover a variety of situations; NW explains this very clearly in his post. So I'll change the question to 'What is a real friend?'.
To me, the essential quality of real friendship is that - whether or not you agree with his reasoning - you hurt when your friend hurts and you are happy when your friend is happy. In fact, you hurt BECAUSE your friend hurts, and you are happy BECAUSE your friend is happy.
This kind of friendship can grow over time, or it can be pretty well instantaneous. It certainly doesn't require physical presence; it can be formed on the internet as, in previous generations, it could be formed in correspondence - as anyone who has read '84 Charing Cross Road' by Helene Hanff (or has seen the 1987 film) cannot fail to be aware.
I am honoured that Brian regards me as a friend, and by the above definition he certainly qualifies as a friend of mine.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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IM the one who is honored Cossie. See, I dont believe you would ever tell me I was a mistake and I wasnt really wanted.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Friendship, to me, does not require recopricity. If present the bond then becomes something more, I think. Possibly that nasty four letter word not normally used between males?
Hugs, Charlie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and that's a promise!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but love without reciprocity seems to me to be a painful option!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I can't understand how it is possible to tell anyone that he is a mistake and not really wanted! It's their loss, and your friends here will go on knocking that into your bright skull, Brian! (..and every skull here.)
Good friends thrive in each others company, but I think it is possible (aptly proven here), to make real friends on the internet, despite the obvious pitfalls. Wherever they are, good friends make a happy life happier and burdens a lot easier to bear.
But you can't give someone hugs on the net, it's only possible tell them that you want to. Cyberspace has its limitations!
{{Hugs}}
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But how many (especially men) are willing to say that a person is a friend because they love them. And that, IMHO, is the basic ingredient of friendship.
Hugs, Charlie
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I think that "fond" or "fondness" is a good substitute for "love" when referring to platonic friendships. It's not quite the same thing, but regretfully in today's schizophrenic society love (except familiar love) has taken on the implication of sexuality (possibly because straight people are now paranoid not to be thought to be homosexual).
A man might not be willing to say that he loves his friends (though, if they are good and long-standing friends he should be able to say that to anyone who understands the nature of the relationship without fear of misunderstanding) but if he is incapable of saying that he is fond of them then he is either emotionally stunted or must be very lonely.
David
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I know about the rule of "dont express your feelings". Around my butt head relatives this is all to common. However, if you watch them real close (even tho they are dumb as a hand full of rocks) you see the little things that they do to tell each other how they feel. Then there are guys like my best bud, who are so comfy with themselves that they can say whatever they want and not worry about what others think. when Im really sad, or I been upset about something, he will put his arm around me and tell me he loves me. That might sound queer to someone listening, but trust me Kol is so str8t it hurts. We been best buds since the first day he came to the U.S. and spoke maybe 10 words of English. when I said that Friends are two hearts singing the same song, we always seem to know the right things to say.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Sometimes the (((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) you get from the interenet are just as warm and comfy as the ones in real life. Ive been told in diff ways what a dissapointment I am. You would really have to know my relatives. My granddad told my mom one day that she needed to buy me some dolls, cause I would never be a man, and that was what she got for giving birth to a bastard. Dont get me wrong, they have never laid a hand on me and wont, but there are other kinds of hurt. My grandma is just mean, but we wont get into that. The rule is if you dont enjoy killing living things for sport, then you gotta be a fag.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I'm glad that you have someone to tell, who are also willing to listen, because that eases some of the pain. It's also good to see that you are able to analyse what is going on and to distinguish between right and wrong. People who are treated the way you are, tend to be emotionally trapped and to believe that being a disappointment is exactly what they are.
I was a disappointment to my mother, too, and what you are telling brings back memories - and emotions of anger which I can still barely contain. Luckily, I had a couple of friends, and their mothers, whose homes were important counterweights to what I had at my own home. Probably without knowing it, they helped keeping me afloat.
Don't ever believe that you are a disappointment! People who tell you what a great person you are, are the ones who have got it right! You are one of the reasons why I keep returning to this place, because of your wit and great sense of humour, and because of the way you embrace everyone in a big hug. Those who are your friends are very, very lucky people! Like Cossie I could have been your grandfather and, if so, I would have been as proud of you as I am of the two grandchildren that I do have!
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Sailor, ok I shortened it. I have not completely escapped the the problems that come with my situation. I get depressed and very very insecure. I can step back and look at myself, but that doesnt always stop it. The one big thing about my relatives, I can out think every one of them.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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You're right. Even with the best of friends it may not be possible to abandon the wagon, but they can make the ride more comfortable, until you can jump off.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... that's the kind of friendship that can last a lifetime, and I hope it does. 'Two hearts singing the same song' sums it up very well. I'm glad you have a friend like that to lean on when you're hurting.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I also have another friend, a Scottsman, who makes me smile an awful lot, and my other friends here too.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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A true fiend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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few men are worth your tears, however, the one who is, wont make you cry.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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>A true fiend is someone who reaches for your hand, and touches your heart
Did you mean a true *friend*? A fiend is, er, almost the opposite.
I must say, though, it conjures up interesting images of someone holding a dagger in one hand, reaching out tenderly for your hand in the other and then suddenly plunging the knife into your heart... That's pretty fiendish. The analogy works however you read it.
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Thats touches, not stabs.  )
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... when the first line of the Scout Law:
'A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout ....'
was invariably rendered as:
'A Scout is a fiend to all and a bother to every other Scout ....'
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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It hurts to hear anyone kill another's spirit like that. then if you cry they'll call you something else. the ignorant cruelty of humans is nearly inexcusable in my sight. I'm at a loss for words...
I've never been hunting (maybe someday), I know how to cook & clean & sew because my mother taught me, I got called a girl when I had long hair, I used to like pretty colors & flowers, my uncle told me ,"You always were sort of strange" my brothers thought I was goofy, my dad called me a cry baby, and said if we ever accomplished anything he'd be surprised. I was a surprise, an unexpected baby at a time when my mom was in alot of turmoil... but finally I feel god about myself. There is much hope in your future dear Brian, and there is a bright sun to rise on you just over the horizon. Do whatever you have to (hopefully without violence) to get thru the hardest times. Brother, email me 7 I'll pray for you or whatever. You need all the help & support we can give you! And great big hugs help too (((((((((HHUUUGGG!!!))))))))))!
It's so much harder when you're still at your age, Brian, & stuck at home. A kid is dependant on his parents for everything, including his view of himself & the world. It's pure abuse to say the stuff your family said to you. I know how deep it cuts into your spirit. Man you need some space away from emotional abuse & time to heal. man, people should have the sense to "not provoke their children to wrath" nor break their spirit! I'd like to hit them in the face with a shovel if I heard them do that to you Brian. That's what they're doing to you emotionally! Brother, I WILL be praying for you now. It can't hurt can it? We've got to see you through the special hell that you have to endure at this time in your life. We all have crap to slog thru, so put on the hip boots buddy & we'll see you thru!
Hey, remember though, Big Brian, that they're just Flipping Ignorant & maybe they're doing the best they can. I can see why you have a LOW opinion of redneck southerners! I have a low opinion of college educated city dwellers for the same reason. that's who my Dad is who hurt me & my Mom & brothers so bad in the past. He's a big ignorant stupid college educated fool that...that... ( oh well, why bother.. )
The ones who have been the most loving to me have been simple old country people from small towns. Not redneck hicks, mind you, but real, genuine nice people. My friend David's parents for one. there have been others thru the years too, not all fitting the mold of country people.
That's why I live in this smaller town too. No high class jerks to compete with, to be compared to, to measure up to. hey, around here my simple honesty, fairness & careful good work have begun to make me stand out like I was really something good. & earn me a good name & repeat work. We can excel when we get away from the repression & depression of ignorant fools.
I have always had a big, tender heart. I love people & treat them the way I want to be treated. Black, white, Indian, Asian, it doesn't matter.
Small towns like this on (less than 10,000 residents) are more friendly, more loving, more respectful & appreciative of each other than a big city. Here you'd better treat everybody right, or the word gets around quick & your business fails!
I've been living here a little more than one year now. I'm not hitting on much but I do my best. That's so hard to do when others keep cutting your legs out from under you so to speak. it's hard to even get back up & try. But it will work out when you can get in a situation that suits you,where you're happy & can live & work as you like.
I was tested to have a genius IQ too, but crap from others can spoil a person's chance for success for a time. I'm so happy there is a better world coming after this one where all the wrongs will be righted, all mysteries explained, and all people rewarded for the good they did & the efforts they made. And the self righteous will be taken down a notch or three. all we have to do is hang in there & endure 'till the end. I needed help just to hang in there though. Maybe now I can give some to you, younger brother!
TeddyBear
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I've also had foreigners to be some of the best friends. If from smaller or poorer areas they seem more friendly, open & genuine. Exact same thing as small town people. Poorer ones realize we must love, look out for & help each other to even get by. We haven't the money to pay for all our needs. Anyway I'd rather have a loving compassionate friend than a paid compassionate psycotherapist to talk to. I've had both. I know!
The second man to ever show me love (that comes immediately to mind) was a nice guy from Persia named Gussham Mohammadi. I call it Persia because that's what he and others call their home. He was one of the Shah's security force & had to leave when the Shah was overthrown & the country taken over by what is the present, mean government of what is now called Iran. The Shah was much loved I understand. He was a benevolent King, or similar.
Gus ran a small garage called Sports & European Motors & I worked for him from age 16 thru about 18 or 19. Last I saw him he was in Washington, DC as service manager of a BMW dealership. He told me that Persia was a good, rich country with universities & freedom & all before being taken over. He spoke great English. He loved to race sports cars. He had a beautiful red headed wife from Ireland I think. They were both so loving & nice to me. He greatly influenced those years of my life.
I feel guilty talking about me so much when it is you all that I care more about. It feels a bit selfish. Teddy
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Sounds like a Reb! You got a coon dog?
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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