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Task Force study fuels debate over success rates, personal toll
By PHIL LaPADULA, Southern Voice
FORT LAUDERDALE — Justin Flippen first became aware that he was different in the sixth grade. By the 11th grade, Flippen, who grew up in a Southern Baptist family in Coconut Creek, Fla., realized that his attraction to other boys was not a passing phase.
Flippen, a spiritual young man who was active in his church and sang in the choir, decided to bring what he perceived as his "gay problem" to his parent's attention.
At his parents' urging, Flippen began one-on-one and group counseling with Worthy Creations, an ex-gay ministry affiliated with Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale. The Worthy Creations counselor told Flippen, whose parents were divorced, that he was gay because he didn't bond properly with his biological father as a small child, Flippen recalled.
"The counselor said that because I lacked an everyday presence of my biological father in my life that I didn't bond with him and, therefore, developed a same-sex attraction," Flippen recalled.
Flippen, who was 17 at the time, said he was "puzzled that not all boys who came from divorced families struggled with homosexuality." He said he was also confused because he thought he had a good relationship with both his stepfather and his biological father. He said his biological father frequently took him on trips to places such as the Grand Canyon.
After a year and a half of "reparative therapy," Flippen said he began to feel deeply depressed and "abandoned by God" because "there was no progress, and I still felt the same."
"At one point, I even contemplated suicide," Flippen said.
Flippen's story is typical of what many gay youths and adults experience when they become involved with ex-gay ministries and attempt to change their sexual orientation, according to a just-released study by the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force's Policy Institute.
The study, titled "Youth in the Crosshairs: The Third Wave of Ex-Gay Activism," documents the high failure rate of conversion therapy. The study also contends that ex-gay ministries harm gay people by causing depression and damaging their relationships with family members and friends. Participants in ex-gay programs also reported loneliness and sexual dysfunction, the study says.
Do ex-gay groups cause family rifts?
"Many participants complained that conversion therapy harmed their relationships with family and friends, particularly with their parents," the study says.
"They play this game of blaming the parents," Jason Cianciotto, one of the study's authors, said in an interview. "Conversion therapy primarily focuses on supposed dysfunctional relationships with same-sex parents."
Cianciotto said the groups also focus on child abuse and molestation as alleged causes of homosexuality.
But those theories have been widely rejected by psychological and psychiatric experts, Cianciotto noted.
Dr. Douglas Haldeman, a clinical psychologist in Seattle, said he has seen firsthand "the wreckage of the ex-gay ministries." When he first started his clinical practice in 1983, Haldeman said he treated a gay Mormon who had undergone electro-shock therapy to try to change his sexual orientation. Since then he said he has treated numerous patients who dropped out of ex-gay programs.
"All of organized mental health, which is based on science and research, discredit these conversion therapy theories," Haldeman said.
Haldeman said the ex-gay ministries tend to attract vulnerable people who may already suffer from low self-esteem.
"When it doesn't work, the shame and stigma are doubly painful," Haldeman said. "People become depressed and self-loathing. It spikes suicidal feelings and propensity toward alcoholism and drug abuse."
He noted that both the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association have come out against conversion therapy.
Groups that push the theory that a lack of family bonding causes homosexuality, such as Focus on the Family, whose web pages on homosexuality focus almost exclusively on a child's relationship with his or her same-sex parent, may actually be creating rifts in families, Cianciotto contended.
He pointed to a study of 202 individuals who had participated in conversion therapy. The study, conducted by two psychologists, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder, found that only 26 of the participants (13 percent) reported believing that they had successfully changed their sexual orientation. But of that 26, only eight reported that they were not experiencing "slips" back into same-sex attraction.
Of the 176 participants in the self-perceived failure group, 155 (or 88 percent) reported significant long-term harm, including depression, "some to the point of wanting or attempting to commit suicide," Cianciotto said.
'I no longer struggle. Jesus healed me'
Rev. Jerry Stephenson, a former Baptist minister, was also a client in the Worthy Creations program and now counts himself among the ex-ex-gay. Stephenson was a Baptist minister for 15 years and taught at Miami Christian College for more than three years. In 1986, he sought Christian counseling for his homosexual attractions. When the dean of the college found out that he was in Worthy Creations, Stephenson said he was fired.
"I may be the only person to be fired for being ex-gay," Stephenson said.
After he was dismissed from the college in 1990, Stephenson became associate pastor of the First Baptist Church in Key West, where he counseled others on how to overcome homosexuality.
"I would tell them, 'I no longer struggle. Jesus healed me,'" Stephenson said. "But inside nothing had changed. You can take an orange and paint it blue and put a hula skirt on it, but it's still an orange."
Stephenson said he went through a period of severe depression before he finally reconciled his sexual orientation and his Christian faith.
"I went from teaching at a college to working at a 7-Eleven pushing a broom," he said.
Stephenson came out in a South Florida Sun-Sentinel article in 1992.
Stephenson, who has a master's degree in biblical studies from Miami Christian College and a doctorate in pastoral psychology from Atlantic Institute Bible College and Seminar in Panama City, Fla., now runs his own counseling practice called the Sanctuary. He is an outspoken critic of ex-gay ministries.
"Not only do these groups destroy the individuals, they also destroy their families," Stephenson said.
Homosexuality 'wasn't God's will for my life'
Cordy Campbell, a volunteer leader with Worthy Creations who described himself as an ex-gay, conceded that conversion therapy "is very hard work." But he insisted that people can leave behind being gay and learn to lead happy heterosexual lives.
"People want a quick fix, and it's not a quick fix," he said.
According to Campbell, Worthy Creation's drop-in group draws about 30 people per week. Campbell said that he sees "people quit all the time after just a few meetings." But he said some people had been with the group for three or four years and "are doing great." He said the group doesn't keep records on its retention rate.
Campbell said he was "in the gay lifestyle" from the age of 12 until he was 45. He said after he became a born-again Christian, "I felt like it wasn't God's will for my life."
Campbell said he thinks a lack of bonding with his father, who was an alcoholic, caused him to be gay.
"I didn't bond with him," Campbell said. "He wasn't there, and when he was there, he was drinking. A dad is supposed to call the child out of mom's circle into manhood. A lot of dads don't do that. They don't spend time with the boy."
Campbell said he also became disillusioned with being gay.
"I saw a lot of tragedy in that lifestyle," he said. "I saw a lot of depressed people, especially older people. It's a lifestyle for young people."
Campbell said he got tired of sitting on bar stools and talking to depressed older gay men. He said he worked with a man who committed suicide after his boyfriend left him.
"The relationships don't last," he said.
Campbell, who said he is a recovering alcoholic, now dates women but is not currently in a relationship. He said he wants to be a "man among men."
Campbell said he knew "former drag queens and others who had been in long-term gay relationships" who now regard themselves as ex-gay.
Campbell said he has nothing but empathy for gay people, whether or not they choose to overcome their homosexuality.
"I love gay people because I came from that lifestyle," he said. "I understand why people are gay. They're looking for love. But it's the result of brokenness, and we live in a very broken world."
Ex-gay ministries 'not bulging with members'
Wayne Besen, author of "Anything But Straight," a book that challenges what he calls "ex-gay myths," said the ex-gay ministries "are not bulging with members."
He said ex-gay ministries such as Exodus International exaggerate their numbers.
"[Exodus president] Allen Chambers pulls numbers out of thin air," Besen said. "In 2003, he claimed that there were thousands of members. By 2004, he said he knew of tens of thousands. Last week, it was hundreds of thousands. The ex-gay ministries are apparently the next Starbucks."
Besen said many of the ex-gay ministries are small groups started by a "charismatic leader with a checkered past."
"They are mini-cults of personality," Besen said. He said the leaders often have a history of dysfunctional behavior, such as alcoholism or drug abuse. He recalled one ex-gay leader who was a former porn actor.
"They blame homosexuality for their behavioral problems," Besen said.
Florida is an epicenter of ex-gay activity. The state has hosted 10 ex-gay conferences. It will host another one when Focus on the Family's "Love Won Out Conference" comes to the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale May 6. There are also at least 11 ex-gay ministries in the state, according to the Task Force's Cianciotto.
Besen said Texas, North Carolina and California are other states with a lot of ex-gay activity. Portland, Ore., has one of the "more active" ex-gay ministries, he said. There is not much activity in New England. surprisingly, ex-gay groups do not have much of a presence in deep South states such as Mississippi and Alabama, Besen said.
'I was born to be gay'
After a year and a half of ex-gay therapy, Justin Flippen said he finally decided to accept who he is.
Flippen, who now serves on the board of directors and the worship ministry team at the Metropolitan Community Church's Sunshine Cathedral in Fort Lauderdale, said he had an epiphany one day while driving down I-95. He recalled a passage in the Bible in which Jesus is overwhelmed by sorrow because of the burden of his role on Earth. But he finally accepts it.
"Just as Jesus was born to be the Messiah, I was born to be gay," Flippen said.
© 2006 | A Window Media Publication
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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Spiritual abuse. And now because they dont have enough members they are coming after teens like me. If my mom switched me, it would be physical abuse, so if I had to go to a conversion camp, stands to reason that what they are doing is mental abuse. Since all these shrink organizations and Dr. and such say that it doenst work, that it does mental harm, shouldnt these people be arested for mental abuse?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian:
>shouldnt these people be arested for mental abuse?
I'm sure a lot of these places could be shut down for abuse, but it would probably take an allegation of abuse for it ever to enter the legal system, and they have a network of devotees who are very good at preventing things like this from ever getting to trial. They manipulate parents ("This will save his soul!") and their victims ("We're only trying to help you! You'll never get better unless you suffer!") into going along with it; and there is also the social stigma of trying to sue a church (does it mean you are against God?). All in all, it's nasty.
Deeej
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For some of us it is indeed possible to pretend that we are not gay, for years, but it doesn't change what we are. A blue orange with a hula skirt on it is still an orange.
It is disturbing to see how the powerful neo-conservative fundamentalists (I deliberately deny them the word "Christians") in the States single out particular groups of people as 'internal enemies', for denigration, harassment and demonization, copying the post ww2 abuse of democracy by senator Joseph McCarthy and his followers. They use well known and proven tactics to manipulate media and the public, and their hunger for power and wealth seems to be without end. Religion is used to get a stranglehold on people, in their religious vocabulary the word "love" doesn't exist, and ethical reflection is notably absent.
In their world there is no place for diversity, and homosexuality is particularly singled out as one of the worst evils today. Therefore, who can blame kids and young adults, who know that they are unacceptably different, for wanting to become "straightened out". Their parents should know better. When their children are threatened it's the parents' job to love and protect them, but parents, too, are under siege.
I take it that everybody here agrees that this "conversion therapy" is serious spiritual and mental abuse, which may inflict lifelong injury on persons exposed to it. I also assume that I know less than many of my new friends here about the implications of this "treatment", and how and why this insanity is allowed to continue, but what is sinking in with me is increasingly disturbing. It raises doubt whether USA is really an enlightened society. One must hope and pray that the present administration will be replaced by people with drastically different sets of moral values.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I don't think anyone would disagree with Sailorman's assumption that no-one in this community is in favour of 'ex-gay' activity, but Deeej is absolutely right when he points out the difficulties in preventing abuse. Add to that the fact that despite the separation of church and state in the US constitution, the state is represented by individuals, and in a fundamentalist community a large proportion of those individuals are likely to hold fundamentalist beliefs. So who can be trusted to offer real help?
What I find amazing is the apparent willingness of a significant proportion of the American population to unquestioningly accept the leadership of fundamentalist preachers. Many of these guys have superficially impressive academic qualifications, but these are from institutions controlled by their fundamentalist creeds. Surely in this context 'academic qualifications' is an oxymoron? (Great! I got to use one of my favourite posh words!) The whole structure of academic discipline is founded upon scepticism - the constant questioning of received wisdom and the search for deeper understanding. The denial of the right to think for oneself is a fundamental and extremely dangerous restriction of our basic human rights.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I'd say my tendancies are over 50% toward being gay. Closer to 100% alot of the time. I do have my beliefs but the Bible doesn't say to force it on anyone.
At times, parents do have power over their children, but as soon as the kids grow up & move out , then they can start to get their head straightened out their own way. We all deal with this when we get old enough. Our life finally gets to be more or less in our own control. It's a great feeling!
It's a great freedom of life we enjoy in the free countries of this world. Others (such as Muslims) wouldn't even give you a chance or a choice.
Christianity is the only religeon that teaches to love your enemies & live with understanding of them. But not all practice it accurately. Most do not in one part or another. Overall it entails great love & patience with others, but also teaches right & wrong. Teaches, not forces. Even God won't force us to live His ways. Only Satan, the Adversary pushes his way so strongly that people can't resist.
I love you all, your brother Teddy {:-)
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I agree that the bible doesnt teach what the majority of Christians do. Its because they only read the parts that back up what they want to believe. the bible was written by men, translated by men, and is chock full of errors. More innocent blood has been shed in the name of Jeasus, than any other religion in the world. Christianity is rude and invasive. Take for instance the ones who come by your house at supper time and refuse to leave.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Love you too! 
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I am reading Jimmy Carter's latest book "Our Endangered Values", where he gives a rather somber insight into the religious and political situation in present day USA. He lashes out against the neo-conservative fundamentalists (he offers a precise definition to the word 'fundamentalist') who have hijacked his church and are posing a threat to fundamental principles of the American constitution, such as human rights, the separation of state and religion and the division of power between congress, president and judiciary. They want their own self-appointed political and religious pressure groups, exempt from any democratic process, to control and dictate what is going on in Washington and in every state. If they succeed, God forbid, democracy itself will be at stake.
I share your amazement, Cossie. Is this allowed to happen because of how American kids are taught in schools, with great emphasis on reproduction of facts, and where the ability of students to form their own opinions is less important? Whatever the reason, I can't understand why the people of a nation like USA allow themselves to be blackmailed like this. After all, many of them are descendants of minority groups who once fled from Europe to avoid religious and political intimidation and oppression.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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(Moderator: put this into new thread if need be. -Teddy)
I agree for the most part brother. I dislike anyone pushy, especially religeons. I don't know if so-called Cristianity killed more in past than the Muslims or Assyrians or others, but they weren't and aren't real Christians no matter who they say they are.
Religeon has hurt and caused problems but has also helped alot too. Maybe fewer now a days than in past, but we shouldn't go back to the past.
Any government run by Mankind will have flaws because it is made up of imperfect people. It's hard to realize & see the injustices & errors that happen in this world. I know. At one time I was almost committed to leaving the USA I thought it sucked so bad! It's far from perfect, but I hear it's better than about anywhere else on earth.
Some guys are happier after changing from their gay ways. I don't think any of those were forced to do it thru counseling, probably none. If you want to do it yourself it's ok.
Though I've felt gay tendancies about all my life, it's good to know I can choose which way I'll go. It's not easy either way. Changing takes much time, focus & retraining the mind & habits, but it's worth it. I've been working on changing myself for 20 years now. I'd like to have a good straight relationship now to reinforce that way, but circumstances prevent that now (long story).
My church even has a e-magazine for recovering homosexuals at anchorhelp.com but I've only looked at it twice. I guess I was afraid someone would see I'd been reading it. That's a silly reason isn't it? I'm changing on my own with God's help. I'm sure a support group would help.
I am much happier after going straight, but I've still not lost the old feelings entirely. In a way there's nothing abnormal with them. Even straights are attracted to good looking guys some, whether they'll admit it or not. And seeing sexual acts even excites animals, not to mention people. That's normal & natural. I just have to control my thought & eyes as anyone must do, sooner or later. They can get us into trouble if we don't.
I've always longed for a close relationship with a man. Especially to please a man because, until recently, my father was never pleased with any of us boys & let it be known too. Whatever we did was never enough for him to be happy or congratulate us. No matter what we did he said we should have done better. After a while it just takes all the fire out of a person & you think, "Why should I even try??".
Lack of good relationship with your same sex parent doesn't affect everyone the same. Some kids become violent toward others. Some it doesn't bother. Some become introverted. some reach out & get into romantic relationships at a young age (one brother did this). Sometimes an absent father & a mean father can create the same responses. I have similarities to children of alcoholics for example.
When you're a kid & adults tear you down, there's little you can do to lift your feelings back up. I'll always be melancholy because of that. We also have mental ilness on both sides of our family (both my mom & my dad's).
Now that I look back I see that before I learned about sex at age 13 I was normally attracted to both boys & girls. Probably much more to boys for the reason listed above. I didn't have sisters either. and a weak mother who spoiled us boys & really treated us more like girls in some ways (too sensitively). I had already done things with boys like go into the bathroom with them to watch & have them undress or play with themselves where I could see them even as a boy. I loved to get naked indoors & out, especially with another boy.
I spent countless hours locked in the bathroom looking at, discovering & playing with all parts of my body as a boy growing up. Being alone & focused on self, it's a lonely, sad way to go thru life. I wasn't really sad then, but not happy either. Lost & confused sums up my first 20 years. Even my own brothers rejected & spurned me, so I was a loner alot.
Getting into early puberty I remember wondering what sex felt like. I found I could tickle the end of my thing so much that I could hardly stand any more. It would get wet on the end too after playing with it under the sheets.
At school I was strangely attracted to some guys & was embarrassed to undress or shower for gym class because of my inferiority complex, my smallish thing, and my bird chest that hadn't filled out yet. I liked to see other guys though & longed to see a girl naked. A couple girls made me feel a weird new attraction. It actually made pant after them, follow them & get obsessed, but I didn't know about sex yet.
I had severe social & emotional problems, refused to go to school & entered a therapeutic wilderness camp in my late 13th year of life. I first learned homo- & lone-sex acts by watching other guys. I stayed focused on this as it came so naturally to me & I wasn't turned off by homosexuality.
Out of camp late in my 15th year, I was mostly a sexually frustrated young guy thru my teens & early twenties. I didn't connect with anyone well. I dropped out at 16 & didn't bond with other classmates or neighborhood kids. Some talked about me because I did & tried things with as many guys as I could. Rejection is harder on gays because it takes so much more strength to even approach a guy than straights need. I had some relations with guys & girls, but nothing regular & satisfying like a real relationship. Didn't practice it (homo-sex) much but sure wanted to, peeped a lot, & fantasized a lot.
During that time I probably 'got off' at least once a day for ten years. When I finally learned to try to slow down & hold back, desire began to build, my member got bigger, and I found I could be attracted and attractive to women.
I learned if I kept satisfying it I tended to think about it & focus on it alot. When I got my mind off it it helped. When desire built up my confidence got stronger. I was feeling cocky for the first times in my life. My voice got lower & I got stronger too (called cock strong.)
If you look at,think about, and satisfy your body a lot, you also end up thinking & looking at other guys an wondering what they may be doing, like you, when they're alone. The feelings keep building & mounting & filling your thoughts.
I got married at 28 but was unhappy because we didn't have a good relationship, didn't even really like each other. With my big heart & little brain I married her on her word & her promises, but she didn't do what she said. still it was nice to know what a woman really feels like & to seem more normal in other's eyes. I learned A LOT the hard way!
It helps alot that in my late 30s my desires lowered down to an easier level instead of hyper sensitive, overwhelming, can't control it kind of levels. Wow! What a break! It's still great, as much as I want, but now it's IF I want to, not EVERY time I look at someone, in my thoughts ALL day long, at all the wrong times, out prowling the streets at night like I used to. I'm glad those days have past.
Also as I get older I notice guys get uglier & uglier as they age. Women keep their smooth hairless skin longer & sweet voices, etc. And I've finally concluded that a good looking woman looks better than a good looking guy. More curves I guess! You've got to admit, even if you're not attracted to them, some of them look HOT! Yeah young guys look good too, but they're not interested in an older man usually. It's the youth just after puberty that is attractive to us all. That's when all us older guys got interested, gay or straight, was in our youth. The beauty of youth is by design to lure to marriage, sex & procreation thus contnuing the race of Man. It's all good.
Unfortunately gay-ism seems to begin in childhood or youth way before we're mature enough to figure life out, etc. With me it was a result of spiritual influences, crap I grew up with & my own tender, loving nature.
Homosexuality is a mean thing the way it puts you on the outside of society instead of in the middle which is basically where we gays want to be, isn't it? In the middle of love, open arms, happiness, acceptance, fulfillment, and all that.
We all struggle with life in many ways or different ways. I found religion, or actually God called me. I'd be dead or in jail if not for that. But no one forced me to change my life. You can call it a coping tool, crutch, or whatever you want.. Hey, it works for me!
More power to you all out there. Just do the best you can & don't worry about the rest. Man, nobody, even God, can expect any more than that!
This life's a trip. We're thrown into it with incomplete information, taught by imperfect parents & messed up schools, then dumped out onto the street to not only to try to (1)figure it all out ourselves but to (2)work, make a living & be successful, all at once.
I was still getting some of the basics straightened out in my thirties, like what a man is supposed to do in society (contribute back to society & look out for others). Now I've turned 21 for the second time & I'm loving life more than ever. It does get better as you go, at least for me. It had to, I'd have committed suicide long ago if not! I hated myself & life.
Keep doing the best you can. Try to learn from everything you go through. Gays, more than others, have a sensitive heart & are compassionate. Try arranging your life to use your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Example: I'm terrible with time so I work for myself & I don't have to listen to a complaining boss.
To all young ones still in school & living in a troubled household: Hang in there little brother! It will get a lot better as soon as you can move out on your own. Stay in school as long as you can, even college. But it's alot better when you get out on your own.
Sorry 'bout the long response in the thread. I don't get to post much & it's hard to control myself!!
I love you all. Let me know if I can do anything to help anyone out there. I live to help others now. Your big loving brother, Teddy in North Carolina, USA.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Dear Sir,
I am extremely worried. My child has fallen in with a group of people, and they are trying to trun him from his rightful path and his rela values into someone just like them. Everything about him will change if these people get their hands on him, and he will be converted to their ways, ways which are alien to me and disgust me.
I refer, of course, to Christian Missionaries.
-----------------------------------
And, in the same way, they refer to homosexuals. how odd.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Like all movements that cannot tolerate any difference from the norm, such places brainwash their vicyims into "new ways".
This is no different from any totalitarian régime.
A religion that is so weak that it cannot tolerate differences is not one I wish to be associated with.
Yes, these places, and also the religions in whose name they operate, are abusive and abusers.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Child sex suspect once was in 'ex-gay' ministry
Arrest brings group back in the spotlight
By Peter Franceschina
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
The former Summit Christian School teacher arrested last weekend after admitting having sex with a teen boy was enrolled in a controversial "ex-gay" ministry whose adherents believe people can change their sexual preference through the power of Christ.
Love in Action International in Memphis, Tenn., is the oldest and best known of the ministries that try to counsel people away from homosexuality through spirituality. With a mission at the heart of one of the nation's culture wars, it has been praised by Christian conservatives and criticized by gay-rights advocates since its 1973 inception in California.
The ministry drew scrutiny last summer when a 16-year-old boy complained on his Web site about his parents forcing him into the center. Now, Love in Action is back in the spotlight after the March 3 arrest of former Summit Christian School teacher Chad Stoffel of Palm Springs.
The "ex-gay" movement is led by Exodus International in Orlando and its some 120 North American affiliates. The ministries promote a hotly disputed concept: that people aren't born homosexual, they're made that way, often by poor parenting or sexual abuse. Since being gay is not innate, proponents say, people can change and have healthy heterosexual relationships.
They are opposed by major health associations and gay-rights advocates, who say so-called "reparative" or "conversion" therapies cause conflict and despair in individuals.
Wade Richards, who became what he called a "poster boy" for the movement after he spent a year and half at Love in Action in the late '90s, finally reconciled himself to the fact that he is gay. He said the program taught him to communicate better with his parents, for which he is grateful, but he thinks it did him more harm than good because he was wracked with guilt and shame.
"It's kind of like an abusive relationship. You have this loving God. It's all based on love, but `if you don't do what I say, you're going to hell,'" he said.
Last summer, a 16-year-old Tennessee boy, Zach, told his conservative parents he was gay, according to his Web postings. They told him he would be going to Love in Action. Zach's posts about the situation to his Web log garnered national media attention and sparked gay-rights protests outside Love in Action.
"It's like boot camp," Zach wrote in his blog. "If I do come out straight, I'll be so mentally unstable and depressed it won't matter."
Stoffel, 29, a popular teacher and coach at Summit Christian School for more than five years, resigned in December, according to school officials.
It's not clear when Stoffel went to Love in Action, but on Feb. 1 a counselor there called a Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office detective and told him Stoffel had confessed to molesting "numerous" boys in South Florida, according to Stoffel's arrest report. Stoffel also had reported himself to Florida's child-abuse hotline.
Stoffel is charged with four counts of sexual activity with a minor and four counts of battery on a child relating to a 16-year-old student from Wellington Christian School.
Sheriff's detectives are investigating Stoffel's admission that he had sex with one of his students, starting when the boy was 14, the arrest report says.
Gerard Wellman, the business administrator and a spokesman for Love in Action, said he couldn't confirm Stoffel was at the facility. He said the ministry reports illegal activity when it becomes known.
"We are bound by Tennessee state law to notify the appropriate authorities, and we abide by that policy without question," he said.
Wellman, like some other employees, is a graduate of the ministry's programs. "We don't think the words `homosexual' or `heterosexual' describe a person, they describe a behavior," he said. "What we strive to do is align their behavior with their beliefs by strengthening their faith in Christ."
He said it doesn't matter whether homosexuality is genetic or learned.
"We are responsible for what we do. We have no control over our temptations and urges. That is something we cannot control, but they can control what they do with that behavior," he said.
In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality as a mental illness, and the American Psychological Association says on its Web site, "The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable."
Earlier this month, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute issued a lengthy report called Youth in the Crosshairs, critical of the ministries for targeting parents and youth.
Exodus International President Alan Chambers issued a statement saying, "Our organization hears from thousands of teens and young adults each year who are desperate for information and resources beyond the one-sided `born-gay' message that saturates our culture... We are deeply concerned about these young men and women because so many of us, as former homosexuals, wish we had been aware of the emotional and physical devastation often found in gay life."
The debate arrives in Fort Lauderdale on May 6. Coral Ridge Ministries, led by the Rev. D. James Kennedy, is hosting Focus on the Family's touring "Love Won Out" conference, billed as "A dynamic one-day conference addressing, understanding and preventing homosexuality." Speakers include leaders from Focus on the Family and Exodus International. Gay-rights advocates are holding a counter-rally, "Love Welcomes All," at First Congregational Church of Fort Lauderdale. One speaker will be Wayne Besen, author of Anything but Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.
Besen is among those who say the programs set people up for failure down the road.
"What should be the most beautiful thing in your life, sexual attraction and love, is turned into one of the most horrible, hated things," he said. "This is something that tears your heart apart and creates tragedies, everything from addictions to suicide."
Peterson Toscano, who puts on a one-man play about his experience in the ministries called Doin' Time in the Homo No Mo Halfway House, also went through Love in Action. "Not knowing how psychology works, they are creating a great lot of turmoil for people," he said.
Copyright © 2006, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That sucks for so many different reasons:
The man had access to vulnerable kids being brainwashed (allegedly) by the "ministry"
He was in a position of trust and abused kids
He was working to cure homosexuality (please ignore for the moment the fact that it is not an ailment and thus cannto be cured), but he was a practising homosexual
And, damn him, homosexuality is again linked with abusing children becais eif his actions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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My error. What a badly written and confusing article. He has "turned himself in" and "Has gone to Love in action". Is that "to be cured?
I think I got it right on the fourth read through. But he's a jerk anyway. I don't care who fantasises about having sex with 14 year olds, but actually touching one is a very different thing.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Teddy, I can understand what your saying. Im probably one of the youngest posters in here, so I dopnthave a whole lot of life experience to draw on. I do take exception top one thing. If a gay man stops having gay sex and stops doing things that gays do. and does only the things str8t dudes do, Hes still gay!
Anybody can believe anything they want to, they can believe in whatever god they want. Just dont force it down my throat, cause I dont believe it, period. Dont mean I dont love everybody here cause I do, and especially a Scotsman I really like a lot. I believe in God, and I try to do the right things and treat everybody with respect. I figure if who ever god is cant handle that the to hell with it. I cant believe that any god can hate what he created.
Oh look in your history books and check out the crusades. One of them lasted a 100 years. A lot of people got lilled in 100 years.
anyway Im rambling again
I love you to Sailorman ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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A slightly better story in the same paper:
Parent says he raised red flag a year ago about teacher accused of sexual abuse
By Marc Freeman
South Florida Sun-Sentinel Education Writer
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pteacher08mar08,0,545356.story?coll=sfla-news-palm
While teacher Chad Stoffel's popularity soared at Summit Christian School, parent Anthony Falzarano says he smelled trouble more than a year ago over Stoffel's many close friendships with students.
"All of these red flags started popping up," Falzarano recalled Tuesday, as the campus coped with the weekend arrest of its cheery former music teacher and boys basketball coach, nicknamed the "Pied Piper."
The 29-year-old teacher from Palm Springs is free on $25,000 bail, charged with four counts of unlawful sexual activity with minors and four counts of battery of a child -- all involving a 16-year-old Wellington Christian School boy Stoffel met during a Lake Worth Playhouse production of Cinderella.
Palm Beach County sheriff's detectives are continuing to investigate Stoffel's sworn statement that he also molested one of his 16-year-old students at Summit Christian.
Pembroke Pines police on Tuesday said Stoffel molested two boys there in 1995. However, both alleged victims, now adults, have refused to prosecute, police said.
At a meeting of parents Tuesday morning in the gym of the school, west of West Palm Beach, security and school officials forced Falzarano to leave after he confronted Headmaster Sam Skelton about Stoffel and the circumstances surrounding the teacher's sudden resignation in December after 51/2 years.
After the hourlong session, the administration told reporters, "We have and will continue to take all reasonable steps to protect our students and families in a safe and nurturing environment."
Skelton, who has declined interview requests this week, said people should contact law enforcement if they have information regarding the case. Since his release from Palm Beach County Jail, Stoffel could not be reached for comment, despite attempts by phone and a visit to his house.
Falzarano, who removed his son Carter, 17, from the school in March 2005 because of a disagreement with administrators and concerns about Stoffel, says he brought his suspicions to Skelton a year ago.
"I just knew he was spending too much time with the boys," said Falzarano, a self-described "former homosexual" from Palm Beach. "I felt very uncomfortable with him."
He says he knows the warning signs due to his experience as executive director of the group Parents and Friends Christian Ministries, part of the so-called national "ex-gay" movement that says it can help turn gay people straight. The organization's Web site calls it a "Bible based ministry offering Christ-centered hope to persons struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions."
Sheriff's investigators initially met with Stoffel on Feb. 9, when he was undergoing counseling at Love In Action International Inc., a Memphis-based ministry dedicated to rooting out homosexual behavior. It was at the ministry that Stoffel confessed to a counselor, who contacted the Sheriff's Office, according to reports.
He was arrested Saturday.
Stoffel reported his activities to the Florida Abuse Hotline before authorities contacted him, according to a statement.
Pembroke Pines police said Stoffel admitted to Palm Beach County sheriff's investigators that he molested two boys there. The boys were 8 or 9 at the time, police said.
Pembroke Pines police interviewed both alleged victims, now adults, and thought they could charge Stoffel with sexual battery upon a child and lewd and lascivious molestation on a child under the age of 12, they said in a news release.
Both men, though, said they didn't want their cases prosecuted, according to the release.
The news from Summit Christian has hit the area's Christian-school community hard, said Jonathan Otto, president of Christian Schools of Palm Beach County.
"We not only hurt for the schools that are involved but for the individual as well," said Otto. "We are praying for the schools."
Copyright © 2006, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Hi brian, I understand.
I must say most all religion is intolerant of outsider to some extent. If not it wouldn't be called a religion. The word religion can mean any belief upheld or persued with zeal & devotion. There are some tolerant ones in religions though. those are smarter ones. They're smart enough to see not everyone has to believe of follow the same way they choose. There's a big world there outside their box.
One of the worst things some believe & teach is that if you don't do as they do then you're lost, condemned or some similar. I don't see that anywhere in the bible. God isn't trying to convert the whole world now. If He is, He sure is losing because so many don't seek or follow Him now. And yes, He does love all his creation.
Whether all this is true or not may have to wait to be proved until after this human life is over. Then if we're resurrected from the dead we'll know a higher power did it. (I think that it'll be a 'trip'! A better life after this one, where we can fly, be invisible, go thru walls, thru outer space, etc!)
I've read the bible & followed it & it's OK for me. I appreciate freedom to live & practice what I want. We don't judge others or try to force or convert them. I guess i just talk about it so much because it's been good for me.
We don't keep christmas, easter or go to church on sundays. Instead we follow the bible. Most so called christians don't even know what the bible says. I would never, either, if someone else hadn't gotten my attention (God).
Other so called christians think they need to convert people to their way of thinking or acting. that is wrong. I hate what I read about people forcing kids into religious molds. I hate to hear of anyone depressed or suicidal. I just want to hold them & love them & you know.. make them feel better. This life is HELL if your sad all the time. Been there, done that! Don't want to go back! I don't support the stupid conselors, religious or otherwise.
I'm more on your side than I can explain. Actions speak louder than words. Since you can't see my actions, I can only say "I love you. I appreciate you all. I can come out with stuff to you all that I can't other places. You all are understanding & non-judgemental. Thanks guys!"
Please forget the religious talk. It's a subject few want to discuss. i just like knowing you all because it shows I'm not alone in this world, and neither are you all. Keep practicing love & tolerance & you're doing well. No one is perfect in this world. you know that yourself. the ones that say they are & you should follow them can be the biggest liars & hypocrites.
I don't want to claim anything big, because I'm a nobody. I'm worse than most people. If even you on this forum knew some things I'd done you might look down on me. Of myself I'm trash. If there's any good in me, it is from somewhwere better than this old world. I struggle just to fit in, do right, & stay out of trouble.
so I make it pretty well most of the time but i give the credit to a power & love I never knew growing up. A spirit of love that came into me beginning about age 20 or so. With that new nature living in me I now find the strength to go forward & face life. I couldn't do that before. Even my Dad, who doesn't believe in God sees the changes in me. I now have some true happiness & occasions even of joy.
To one who was always sad & depressed this is a miracle, and all without ritalin or any drugs. I'm on your side, not the traditional christianity or organized religion. i do what i need to to get by. I appreciate your tolerance & love! {:-)
Thanks you all! Teddy the handyman.
PS maybe I should post on a forum for those who have "UNWANTED same sex attractions" like the article said. though I love everyone I may fit in better there. No offense intended. Hope I didn't piss anyone off. Nice site here, well done & real good people here too. Article:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pteacher08mar08,0,545356.story?coll=sfla-news-palm
"...hope to persons struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions."
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and I think that your point of view is interesting. What I'd really like you to explain is why you regard your gay inclinations as unwanted. Though I don't now regard myself as a Christian, I was once and I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Anglican faith because of what I saw as a very broad and inclusive approach. I wouldn't claim to be a Biblical scholar, but I do have a deep interest in the origins of the Biblical texts in both old and new Testaments - the multiple Isiahs and so forth - and placing those texts in the context of the times in which they were written I don't see anything which would make me feel that my gay inclinations are wrong, even though - like yourself - I don't put them into practice. Surely what matters is what kind of man I am, and how I relate to my fellow men?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Teddybear, I would never want you to leave this forum. I know you have faith and feel that God has helped you. If you feel better about yourself and your happy, thats all that matters. Its the old saying "whatever makes you boat float"
I know you are just tellin ghow your faith has helped you, and your need for it in your life. Whatever you feel like you have done so wrong, dont mean nothing if you arnt doing it now. So guess im saying, If i did know what you did so bad, it wouldnt bother me cause, you changed that. so thats something to be proud of.
so dont talk about leaving, you can always get support here from any of us, from me for sure, altho Im probably not your best choice. At my age I have trouble decideing if I want chocolet ice cream or vannela.
Stick around, be a friend.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I suspect all of us have, or have had at some time, "unwanted same sex attractions". I know I never wanted to be attracted to the same sex. I know I would have given a great deal wen 13,14,15 16,176,18 etc to be "normal".
That "great deal" did not include subjecting myself to brainwashing - I was perfectly capable of attemptingthat myself and succeeded for a few patchy periods - or unpleasant medical, pseudo-medical, or surgical procedures.
I had given religion up, and given faith up, too. I just existed.
I appreciate a person who has their own, quiet, non evangelical faith. I always did, despite having none myself at the darkest points in my life.
I have decided that I am gay because I am gay. if there is a God then I am gay because he has a reason for it. If not I am gay because I was always going to be gay. I am as content with it as I can be. While I wish not to be gay I also do not wish for outside interference to alter me and how I perceive the world.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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> Falzarano, who removed his son Carter, 17, from the school in March 2005 because of a disagreement with administrators and concerns about Stoffel, says he brought his suspicions to Skelton a year ago.
>
> "I just knew he was spending too much time with the boys," said Falzarano, a self-described "former homosexual" from Palm Beach. "I felt very uncomfortable with him."
>
> He says he knows the warning signs due to his experience as executive director of the group Parents and Friends Christian Ministries, part of the so-called national "ex-gay" movement that says it can help turn gay people straight. The organization's Web site calls it a "Bible based ministry offering Christ-centered hope to persons struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions."
While this results in someone who molests kids beig prosecuted, which I appluad, it does soind like this guy ios a man on a mission to hunt gay people down, whcih I despise.
> Pembroke Pines police said Stoffel admitted to Palm Beach County sheriff's investigators that he molested two boys there. The boys were 8 or 9 at the time, police said.
>
> Pembroke Pines police interviewed both alleged victims, now adults, and thought they could charge Stoffel with sexual battery upon a child and lewd and lascivious molestation on a child under the age of 12, they said in a news release.
>
>Both men, though, said they didn't want their cases prosecuted, according to the release.
Has anyone thought of the fact that the two men who did not want the cases prosecuted might have been harmed more by being approached by the police than by the original molestation? We do tend, as a society, to go at these things like a bull at a gate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Hello my dear Cossie. Thank you so much! I really appreciate your love!
...why gay inclinations unwanted..? Evidently I indicated they were unwanted??? I guess that's so... Hmmm... Let me think...
What I really always wanted is just some approving, accepting love. Somehow things deprived in infanthood & childhood can grossly affect us the rest of our lives if not actively corrected. (My oldest brother has been on many drugs over the years (recreational & prescription) and also government disability pay for his continuing mental problems which stem from his bizarre early treatment by my father. I have the same mental problems just not so badly. He's admitted to homosexual feelings too in his past.)
1) I have only been frustrated by them, spurned by others, looked down on, lost friends, etc. Notice what persecution & bad name you acquire by doing these things.
2) Never were a source of satisfaction but frustration & obsession. For example:
* Get on a gay porno site & see how long you stay there.. hours & hours & hours! You could even buy bigger hard drives, spend hours saving photos, etc.
* Or go peeping in windows of your friends & see how long you stay up without sleep & what things you'll do just to get a view of them..
* Or get obsessed with one guy or another & see how he is in your thoughts all night & day, wondering what he's doing & who he's with & straining to see his boyhood thru his pants every time you're in a group with him, but not to be seen looking..and trying to touch it was even more stress on my weak nerves!
* When you get older the ones who look good are still the young ones, who are then harder to get if not impossible, leading to more frustration and possibly quite embarrassing if not criminal behavior, not to mention hurting ones you love. It's unsustainable in this way too. Women stay younger looking, retain their pretty curves & sweet voices & smooth almost hairless skin. God knew what we men would find attractive!! Heck, guys (even myself) turn out hairy all over, growing more in new places each year that goes by. It's about yucky I'd say. who wants to kiss a hairy rat?? (I guess if I loved him & he loved me... maybe then)
3) It seemed all consuming & uncontrollable, messing up my life outside of it, affecting work, marriage, church, things I wanted to get done, anything. (This can apply to any sexual obsessions gay or straight.) The repeated masturbation even depletes the adrenal glands leading to listlessness, weakness, lethargy, etc. This is why people refer to a continually lazy person as a 'jack off' or 'pussy whipped', and a waste of time as 'jacking off'. If you're healthy your body will always be ready to respond, but it's a problem when it affects other aspects of your life negatively.
Actually I was getting away from the worst of it by my early twenties & before my bad marriage from age 28 onward. Church helped normalize me, helped me become more well rounded & well balanced in knowledge, emotions & thought. Helped me become more self aware. I finally learned the true reason for sex & how it was designed to be used & that it is good as the bible says!
Even within the last year or so a sermon about homosexuality helped me realize that even an obsession with my own body was rooted in or connected with homosexuality. I've always loved to look at & play with my beautiful body. Even made many naked pictures & videos & still imagine making more sometimes. But it was continuing & feeding all the time wasting, mind altering habits listed above. So I've cut that out too. I hardly have enough time to do my work & keep my house without those fruitless wastes of time.
It was an uncontrolled emotional and physical thing, now more controlled in a good, happy way so it doesn't hurt me. But it will probably always be a part, a component of who I am.
4) I disliked the feelings in this way; I had an innate sense it was wrong, even in my young boyhood, first or second grades (aged 7-9 approx).
5) It always seemed to be connected with my other emotional hang-ups & weaknesses. They are connected to my strong need & longing to love & be loved & accepted in return. All I wanted really was to be like everyone else & have a normal mind & relationship with a pretty girl, but my mind was so out of whack that I was FAR from that dream. The good relationship with a pretty girl has hardly been realized, but I am satisfied with what I have had.
6) It goes against logic & the physical design of our human bodies. It's an unsustainable way of life.
7) My understanding of Holy Scripture is that God doesn't want us to think or practice homosexuality.
The above is an answer to the first question you raised. I could get into bible discussion later, it's a deep, complex process to assemble all the various scriptures & doctrines that bear on any given subject.
Your statement says it all, "Surely what matters is what kind of man I am, and how I relate to my fellow men" Amen to that brother! Nothing needs added to that. I love you, Teddy B.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I was normal, still am for that matter......
I have never balked at the opportunity for an encounter with someone I was attracted to.... which incidently has never been one of the opposite sex..... I also never once wished to be other than what I am.
I don't believe that setteling for a relationship for appearances sake is anyway to live ones life.
As for faith, I have alot of that...... BUT..... none of it is directed to a "greater power" which has no basis in fact...... I prefer to place my faith in the people around me. To me that is a whole lot more real than chanting into a book or singing off tune songs in a huge building.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Dear younger brother Brian, your support & love really means alot to me! At your age you can love a person just as well as anyone.. You're special & needed just for who you are! Chocolate & vanilla both taste good together! If I was close I'd just give you one big hug!
Thanks for asking me to stay. I don't want to be anywhere people don't like me. I've had too much of that in my life already!! I got your email notification & cossie's together. the love you both show gave me a special warm feeling all over! that's how much i need true love from someone who really understands, i guess...
"Teddy Bear, I wouldn't want to chase you away ... I would never want you to leave this forum. so dont talk about leaving, you can always get support here from any of us, Stick around, be a friend."
Thanks alot! words can hardly say how good you make me feel! That really means a lot to me. and I like your avatar, that's cute! Where'd it come from? Teddy B.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Being normal and knowing one is normal are two different things, hence my quote marks
I agree about relationships for apearances. My own heterosexual marriage was a pure accident of love. It is as genuine as many, more genuine than most, heterosexual relationships.
There are also relationships "because it was the normal thing to do". How many heterosexuals marry "because that is what we do next" and are not even in "like" let alone in love?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Timmy I appreciate you writng back to me! i like your name!
yeah, i know how you feel. We just need accepting love, friendliness & a light hearted love. a heavy heart is bad for us. we have to stay cheery & positive for the good mental & physical benefits.
Man, I appreciate all you've been thru. You're doing alright! I admire you. You're doing a lot better than i could have on my own. i'll send all the good 'vibes' your way that I can.
Hey, write me back you if you want. I'm here for you buddy. i think you can email privately too. You're doing fine brother. you'll be OK. You're safe!
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Marc wrote:
I don't believe that setteling for a relationship for appearances sake is anyway to live ones life.
Marc, of course you know what you believe. But you do not know what life is like for those who "settle for a relationship" such as you described. I have been very, very lucky - certainly more so than many others that I know.
I prefer to place my faith in the people around me.
Oh, Marc, dear friend. "Let your ears hear what your own mouth is saying." Don't keep going off in a huff every time someone says something that offends you. No one here would intentionally do such a thing. But sometimes we can and do disagree with you. Please have more faith in us, because we are all "people around" you.
Hugs.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, we all do as well as we can with due regard to the environment we exist in. No-one sets out "to survive only just as well as I need to", even homeless people living on the streets. We all strive to gain as much contentment as we can and to be as good as we can be.
Never, therefore, compare yourself, either in success or adversity, with another. We each do 100%. It is our own 100%, and thus not comparable with anyone else.
We do it with as much help as we can get from people, from beliefs, from unexpected and random acts of kindness. All we need to do is to "pay it forward", and that need never be obvious, just a random act of kindness more than you would have done naturally.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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We can bitch. We can moan. We can stand on city hall steps and wave signs. We can march to the capital.
And what will it get us?
Nothing....
Why???????
Because they have control of their little congregations and have the parents right in the lamps of their hands. The parents say where their children go for whatever treatment they believe is needed. If the treatment centers are closed (for whatever reason) they will reopen elsewhere.
These people will not give up their mission. They will not because that would mean a loss of revenues. And it is all about the $$$$$.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
What do we do....... We do our best at what we are doing.
It accomplishes nothing..... but we keep on trying nonetheless.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You may or may not have married for love. But you have a deep and abiding friendship with your wife. Thus the relationship is not a "relationship for appearances"
You need to look closer at that, I think.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It accomplishes something.
Every day a real parent will see that a cure is not posisble, and will embrace their child with the new information that the child is gay. That one child has been saved.
I know that every day another parent will commit a child for treatement. My argument is that they woudl have done that anyway. Mine would have.
Every day a little more of the message goes to another kid. That kid chooses wisely not to come out in a hostile environment. He or she waits and watches and decides what is safe.
When you and I were kids, marc, treatment was the norm. Today it is the exception. Perhaps one day it will be unobtainable. So we make progress, even by discussing it in a seemingly insular discussion forum such as this one.
We make progress because search engines pick the forum up. Questing kids and parents search and see topics like this one. They read and make judgements. The more they see rational thought from that alien community, the homosexuqal, the more they start to see that we and they are the same flesh, just separated by an accident of orientation. And every day just a few more parents understand.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi teddybear,
Since you're new I ought to say hello. So, hello!
I have to say I'm not Christian any more, so being gay doesn't worry me. And, in fact, even when I was, it didn't: the Anglican Church is a bit schizophrenic on the issue, but I think the consensus is that it's fine to be gay and be part of the communion. Just not a vicar. The main reason I've rejected being gay in the past is that it's so damn inconvenient. And I still think it's inconvenient, but that may be because I'm not trying hard enough.
>It's a great freedom of life we enjoy in the free countries of this world. Others (such as Muslims) wouldn't even give you a chance or a choice.
Well, to get the ball rolling, I would have to disagree with that statement It sounds like you're saying that (a) all Muslims disagree with freedom and choice -- which I assume you didn't mean, but, as others will tell you, I'm very pedantic; and (b) that we have freedom in the West because our societies are Christian. On the contrary, I feel that the reason society has got freer in the UK (though, regrettably, I think it may have reached its peak now) is because it has coincided with the decline of religion (even moderate religion such as the Church of England/Anglicanism). It doesn't matter to the vast majority of people (young people, at least) in the UK whether other people are gay, despite the Church's mixed messages on the subject, because they are no longer religious. On the other hand, America seems less "free" -- whether or not it is, technically and constitutionally -- because of the vociferous views of the fundamentalists, led, of course, by its president.
Yes, there has always been a long association between the West and Christianity, but historically the UK (I would include America, except it hasn't been around that long) has had more than its fair share of religious zealots and bigots. And whether or not they qualify as genuine Christians (and I don't believe they do) they still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, and a stain on our history.
When Tony Blair admitted a couple of weeks ago that he had prayed to God about whether to send troops to Iraq, he immediately got a lot of flak about bringing religion into politics and making it a "Holy War". For us, politics and religion are well and truly separate. On the other hand, George W. Bush has always brought God into it. It's somewhat ironic that the UK has an official Church and America doesn't; because in practice, it would appear to be the other way around.
David
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Hey brother Marc, I appreciate your honesty. You seem very well adjusted, confident & happy with yourself. Wow, that's all good. You're doing a lot better than so many in this world. Better than me on my own!
I'm glad you don't follow empty traditions, engage in superficial relationships or repeat pointless & stupid songs & chants. I think you 'see' some things better than alot of people who think they have the "light". You're doing something right.
My faith in people isn't as strong as yours as I've been hurt too much in past. I think as we get close to anyone we'll always see something that disappoints us, that's when love comes in, to get past it, appreciate them & like them anyway. But faith in humanity is a good thing.
I didn't naturally ever 'see' a god. Some asked me, "How can you not believe there's a God when you look up at the trees, sky, birds & things?" Hey, well I just didn't! it didn't even seem logical to me. It didn't to my Dad either, & probably His dad too.
I've learned God is spirit & love. spirit can't be heard, seen or felt by the senses, or measure by science, except in it's action & reaction it has on other things. Sort of like gravity. But I know it's real now. It's a personal thing for anyone who believes. It has to be proved to each one's self as a basic of faith if you want to believe in God. If you say you believe but haven't proved it to yourself, then that's a person not well founded, who isn't sure of what he believes.
My faith in God came from Him proving Himself to me. I tried Him at his words & promises & He came through again & again. In situations where it couldn't have been anything else. If he was trying to reveal himself to the world he hasn't done a good job has he? God's keeping a hands off policy right now. He will reveal Himself when the time is right, according to His inspired word.
Whatever, It's a private thing to me. You do fine brother. You believe in what you can see & know. Hey, nothing bad with that! keep up the good. See ya' Teddy B.
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Hi 'Deeejay' Thanks for the Hello & comments. I appreciate it guy. You have some interesting insights. I may reply more later. I may have some questions too. You are an interesting & artistic type. Did anyone ever classify you as a.d.h.d.? Just wondering because adhd people typically also have artistic abilities & wide ranging talents.. No offense intended of course. Nice to talk with you, brother. Teddy B.
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timmy wrote:
You may or may not have married for love. But you have a deep and abiding friendship with your wife. Thus the relationship is not a "relationship for appearances"
I'm sorry I was misunderstood. My fault. I only wanted to point out that some of what Marc called "a relationship of appearances" work out very well. Some don't, I admit. Again, I have been far luckier (and happier) than I deserve. I may not have married for love, but after all these years there is a deep and abiding mutual affection. Would that the same could be said for so many other "marriages for love". If I had been born 30 years later than I was things may have been different; but I wasn't; and under the circumstances I am content.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Hi Teddy,
>Did anyone ever classify you as a.d.h.d.?
Not ADHD. Possibly (though as it's not a very useful diagnosis, I tend to ignore it) mild Asperger's syndrome, which is itself a mild form of autism. Every so often, you get someone who tries to diagnose famous historical figures with it -- Newton, Einstein, Turing, Michelangelo. That sort of thing is quite trendy these days, but not especially helpful: people's work should stand alone without requiring knowledge of their thought processes.
Nevertheless, I suspect some of it may be evident from the way I write: I'm somewhat pedantic, careful with grammar and spelling, and frequently long-winded and obsessional. (And sometimes a bit insensitive -- sorry, everyone!)
>Just wondering because adhd people typically also have artistic abilities & wide ranging talents..
Ah, well, that's a good reason I couldn't be ADHD, then.
It's nice to meet you, Teddy.
Deeej
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I said,
>I'm somewhat pedantic, careful with grammar and spelling, and frequently long-winded and obsessional. (And sometimes a bit insensitive -- sorry, everyone!)
Teddy said,
>>Just wondering because adhd people typically also have artistic abilities & wide ranging talents..
I replied,
>Ah, well, that's a good reason I couldn't be ADHD, then.
No self-respecting pedant could fail to point out that that should, of course, be:
Ah, well, that's a good reason I couldn't have ADHD, then.
There's also the question of whether "ADHD" should actually be "A.D.H.D.". Probably it should, but it looks silly, so I'll make an exception.
See what I mean about obsessive?
Deeej
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I said,
>See what I mean about obsessive?
Good grief, my brain has gone into overdrive.
It's probably better if that's:
>See what I mean by obsessive?
Please, someone, put me out of my misery!
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