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How many in here have seen Latter Days? If you want to see how these churches try and convert gays, you need to watch this. The people who run these clinics are sick sick bullies and Masochist. this is their way to legaly inflict suffering on someone who has never hurt anyone.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... as a simple Scotsman 'Latter Days' doesn't mean too much to me - except that it turns my thoughts towards Salt Lake City, Utah.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Yep thats what the movie is about. Its about a Mormon boy who is gay and is found out. Fantastic movie.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Yeah I watched this one and have a current copy of it. It is another example of how some people twist things around to use their beliefs to hurt others. It doesnt cause me to think it has anything to do with God, not the one I believe in anyway. I felt a lot of sympathy for that boy too.
Ken
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Ken wrote:
It is another example of how some people twist things around to use their beliefs to hurt others. It doesnt cause me to think it has anything to do with God
I agree that such matters have nothing to do with God. I am always reminded of a scene in Bernard Shaw's "Saint Joan" where the archbishop tells Joan that she is not in love with God but she is in love with religion. When it becomes loveless infliction of pain and distress on someone (whatever noble reason may be claimed) that is not something done in the name of God or for the love of God: it is done in the name of religion and for love of religion. It seems to me that with some religions the love of religion completely obfuscates any possible love of God. When one person tells another, in the name of God, that they are inflicting pain or distress "for your own good" that is a sure sign that they are dominated by religion and not by love of God. The golden rule is: "Never do to somebody else what you would not like them to do to you."
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is it ..... "being in love with God"
Or ........ "Being in love with the concept of God"
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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>The golden rule is: "Never do to somebody else what you would not like them to do to you."
I think I said something along those lines here a couple of months ago and I was chided (I can't remember by whom) because even that idea can be twisted out of all recognition: suppose a zealot was convinced that if ever he was in your situation he would rather be burnt at the stake than condemned to hell?
Deeej
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A wise man once said.......
"A hot steak is better than a cold chop"
I don't know why this came to mind.....
It just did is all......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh.......
And a gold star to anyone that can name the person that said it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
Is it ..... "being in love with God" Or ........ "Being in love with the concept of God"
Marc, I am not certain whether you are questioning the origin of the quote or something else. If it was the former, here is the original quote from Shaw's Saint Joan, Scene II:
THE ARCHBISHOP [touched, putting his hand on her head] Child: you are in love with religion.
If you meant something else, Marc, you will have to clarify for me.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Deeej wrote (first quoting me):
The golden rule is: "Never do to somebody else what you would not like them to do to you." I think I said something along those lines here a couple of months ago and I was chided (I can't remember by whom) because even that idea can be twisted out of all recognition: suppose a zealot was convinced that if ever he was in your situation he would rather be burnt at the stake than condemned to hell?
Deeej, it was probably me who you think chided you (but I never intended to do such a thing  ). Once again, you are confusing the Christian version of this "Golden Rule" with the Jewish version. Your comment perfectly fits the Christian version, but it can't fit the Jewish version because you are told NOT to do to someone else what you would not like them to do to you: in other words, REFRAIN from such action.
I believe I once quoted here Shaw's famous quip about the Christian version:
Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.
For the sake of completeness here is the original teaching of the Jewish sage, Hillel, as given in the Talmud (Hillel was an older contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth):
What is hateful to you do not do to your fellow: that is the whole of God's law; the rest is explanation.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Marc wrote:
Oh....... And a gold star to anyone that can name the person that said it....
I found this by Googling:
My favorite skit from the 3 stooges is when Moe says to Curly you have 2 choices how to die. You can be burned at the stake or have your head chopped off. Curly says to Moe........ I'll take the hot steak! "A hot steak is better than a cold chop any day!" Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck.
What would we do without Google?
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR,
I see very little difference between them.
"Refrain from doing what you would not like others to do to you": okay, but
the Christian version is a pretty obvious corollary to that -- "do to others what you would have them do unto you." Even if that is technically faulty logic, the double negative is so confusing it sounds almost exactly the same to me; and I'm quite sure that if someone felt like burning you at the stake using that sort of logic, arguing in that way won't help you.
Anyway, that particular pronouncement does not prevent you from burning someone at the stake if you would like others to do it to you in their situation -- because you would not not like others to do it to you. There may be other laws that forbid it, but in itself it is just as incomplete as the Christian version.
David
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Ok, Straining to push the car back on the track. I was wondering how many guys have seen this movie. The scene where they put him in the clinic, to "Cure" him, absolutely tore me up. The people who were doing that had to enjoy it, cause they wouldnt have been able to see someone that young being tortured like that. If they say they are doing it cause it is good for the patient, are sick and the truth is not in them.
What these people are doing, the ones n real life, is earning them a special place in hell. In the bible, if I am not mistaken, where Jesus lays his hand on a child and says, What ye do unto the least of these my children, ye also do unto me.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Yes indeed Brian, that is exactly what I was saying to you in the first place in my response to this movie. Yeah I felt bad about that too. I immediately thought about Marc and what he went thru when he was young. The rightous seem to always be the ones who inflict all this on others. I know several priests and clergy who would never suggest doing that to anyone.
My own feeling about being gay is that it never brought me happiness to be gay ,but isnt it my own business of how I live my life? What right does anyone else have to make that decision for me? David is a very intellectual person and he can give some really profound answers to things and it is great to hear his thinking on these matters. He makes this old dog rethink a lot of things and I hope he never feels any animosity towards me. You guys are welcome on my jury any time.
Ken
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Deeej wrote:
I see very little difference between them.
David, there is a world of difference between telling someone not to do something and telling them to actually do something.
If you wouldn't like someone to beat you up don't to it to anyone else: even if the other person is a masochist and likes being beaten up no great harm has been caused.
On the other hand, if I like beating people up but the other person does not want to be beaten up, if I "do unto him what I would like him to do do me" - he will be very unhappy and rather beaten up.
Since you are a very intelligent person I can only assume that you really don't want to see a difference which to me seems obvious.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR,
Intelligent or not, I honestly needed quite a few readings to see the difference -- possibly because of the double negative, which so often means exactly the same thing as a positive. It may be obvious to you because you are more familiar with the Jewish way of looking at things, but until you pointed out the difference today I had simply not noticed it -- which is why I brought up the subject in the first place. I promise you, I am not trying to be difficult! If anything, I've been unobservant, and I apologise for that.
The parent post did clarify things. Thank you.
>If you wouldn't like someone to beat you up don't to it to anyone else: even if the other person is a masochist and likes being beaten up no great harm has been caused.
But what if I am a masochist, and already think it is okay to beat people up? In that case, the rule would not prevent me from beating other people up any more than the Christian version would. That is the angle from which I was looking at it throughout. Not from a position of initial stasis.
David
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Deeej wrote:
I've been unobservant, and I apologise for that.
Oh David, if I were to get one pound sterling for every time I have been unobservant I woould be a very rich man! No need to apologise.
But what if I am a masochist, and already think it is okay to beat people up? In that case, the rule would not prevent me from beating other people up
This is absolutely right. But, if you were observing the former injunction it is most likely that you would also obey another injunction, not to cause harm to another person.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Seen on a friend's MSN header:
"I have no problem with God; it's his fan club that scares me!"
Says it all I think. :-/
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Never seen it, never been able to get my hands on a copy, although I'd like to. The LDS church wasn't like that with me at least. In fact, despite the very prolific and prevalent flaws in the church, I think theologically at least, it is one of the more on-track religions.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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