|
|
|
|
...A documentary this time. I made this last semester. It focuses on what may be a very poignant topic for this forum: bigotry - specifically homophobia and racism.
part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX47JZRCdsg
part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUzCWm0-CQ
I had to split this project into two parts to fit it onto youtube, so excuse the sudden jolting stop.
The documentary is made up of interviews, found footage of the "Erase-the-Hate" rally, and a third source, which serves as my opinion.
Again, comments are more than welcome and are encouraged, whether they be about the technical aspects, the ultimate message, or even what the interviewees had to say.
Thanks,
-Matthew
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's called "Erased."
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
In a documentary.... For me, the sound track realy distracts from the issues presented...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...mine in particular or just documentaries in general? And by soundtrack, you mean music?
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi Matthew,
I'm not going to -- and I can't -- criticise this film in anything like the way I did the last one, because I'm not a documentary film-maker. I'm only really interested in fictional drama, and the conventions for that are very different.
Again, this is all personal opinion. In this case I'm not sure if my comments are supported by documentary "theory", so I can only go by what felt right to me.
I thought the film had plenty of interesting "soundbites" and the interviewees raised some interesting points. But I felt there wasn't any clear narrative structure -- without the "blurb" I would have been pretty bewildered as to what the film was about. I appreciate the absence of a voiceover to tie it together was a stylistic and artistic decision, but I didn't feel that there was enough in the soundbites alone to hold it together as a single coherent whole. It was also pretty long for a short film -- parts of it seemed rather repetitive.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed watching it. I liked the "meta-documentary" section where you showed how subjects' words could be taken entirely out of context -- in fact, I would be fascinated to see a documentary on that alone. As it was, it was a sort of interesting aside -- not quite in keeping with the rest.
I think the use of inserts -- found footage, and manufactured footage -- worked in some cases, but in others it didn't quite make sense to me -- in fact, I wondered if the rationale for using them was "give the audience something pretty to look at while they listen to the interviewee". Presumably it was not?
Some random questions:
- Why the constant music? It didn't seem to correspond with the video very well -- it set a mood at first, but it didn't change very much, and it didn't serve to accentuate what was being said (in the main). (I loved the "special thanks to" in the credits, though!)
- How and why were the participants chosen?
- What did the cups mean?
As far as technical aspects go -- most of the shots "worked" (in fact, I thought a lot of the cinematography and lighting was very good), but some compositions didn't work so well (mostly contrast problems), and there seemed to be a few exposure and colour balance issues too.
When you refer to the film as experimental, I assume you mean you meant that you used it to test out certain methods of construction and editing to see if they "worked"? In that sense, I thought it was a great success -- you can build on the same techniques to produce other documentaries that are much more specific in their remit. Is that the idea?
I hope that's constructive!
Deeej
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
I have an aversion to having to listen hard to get throuigh background clutter. The interviews with huge background noise (large black girl) need better attention to sound, for me. And I found the music too heavy because it made me listen to IT, not the speakers
Were the clips all your work, or were they a compilation?
I see where you are going with this. I think the question I have is "Why was the journey so long?"
Without the relatively high level of the music I might not ask that question, but I found it hard to concentrate on the content. I felt there was not a cohesive whole, no story, and I didn't understand why they linked in that order. The most interesting questions were from the spectacled girl. But no answers and the controversial them was too late in the movie to be addressable easily
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Any in general.....
And I do mean the music.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I wonder why that is.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is easier to get an emotional response through music than it is through drama or argument. If used well, this can be used to enhance a film's impact many times. The problem is, there is a temptation on a film-maker's part to use it to "smooth over the cracks" and try and tell the audience what they should be feeling. If the audience becomes aware of this, and are not persuaded by the power of the argument, the chances are it will undo everything the film-maker is aiming for, and annoy them no end -- even to the point at which they stop watching.
I personally prefer drama and documentary without music. Some of the most nail-biting, intelligent, emotional and dramatic moments I have ever seen were in plays and films without any music whatsoever. And there are many documentaries without music that stun audiences by the power of their images and discourse. But it is harder to appeal to an audience through pure drama than it is through music; plus, on a technical level, a soundtrack needs to be much slicker when there is nothing to cover up blemishes in the location audio. That's presumably why so many programmes use music when it would have been altogether more daring and more interesting to leave them without.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
It's simple. In a documentary, I prefer to get the information presented without any distractions.
After all, what is more important, the issues or the background entertainment?
In much the same way, I would not chose to read a book in a noisy club. I prefer a guiet place.
But to be fair, I rarely listen to music at all when working. If I do listen to the radio I prefer talk radio to music stations.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll notice that the soundtrack used in "Erased" is of the minimalist school of composition, utilizing a cyclical chord progression, symbolic of the cyclical nature of the arguments and general discussion of the piece.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...It seems as though a lot of the soundtrack tweeking I did on this project got lost in translation when converting it to a compatible "youtube" file.
When this was screened in my Experimental Film class, all the levels were fine, and no one complained about dialogue being unintelligible.
I think for the most part - with the exception of a few of Joncier's bits - the audio is okay, though it appears that the music (meant to be a simple mono track amongst the stereo dialogue and effects) got mixed down along with everything else to mono.
I guess that's the price I pay for a little exposure. Haha.
-Matthew
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Machelli wrote:
> You'll notice that the soundtrack used in "Erased" is of the minimalist school of composition, utilizing a cyclical chord progression, symbolic of the cyclical nature of the arguments and general discussion of the piece.
I noticed and pointed out that the soundtrack is loud and annoying as it detracts from the overall expression of views and opinion from those expressing themselves in the film.
In watching a documentary, this documentary, someone elses documentary, I prefer not to be distracted. I do not listen to music when doing serious work as it is a distraction. That being the case, if someone presents a documentary and expects it to be taken seriously I expect no preprogramed distractions. If as a producer of serious documentary you expect me as an audience then you must present your work as something that would seriously interest me.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmm, yes... I did notice it was simple and repetitive and I understand that it could be symbolic of the nature of the arguments.
But just because it echoes them does not mean it adds to the documentary's impact. You could have rotated the picture or cycled the colours or faded the picture in and out in a similarly cyclical way instead, but you didn't, because it would unquestionably have added nothing to the argument and distracted the audience. Even though it might have worked on a critical level.
I contend that the soundtrack does the same thing. I didn't find it as distracting as Marc did, but I did find it distracting enough to complain about in my review.
I'm still of the opinion: audience first, critics second.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...This is an EXPERIMENTAL documentary (a.k.a, an experimental film). I hope that clears things up.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
The experiment worked. It caused comment. It was a risk to ask for it, but I hope the results were useful, if not necessarily pleasing
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
All student film attempts are experimental...... that much is axiomatic when reguarding critique of the work.....
Nevertheless, if you place them online and expect only praise for a job well done and keep all critical assessment to ourselves then there should be some sort of questionaire to fill out at the onset......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Experimental film (as a genre) encompasses those movies which stretch, question, or otherwise draw attention to (the conventions of) cinema itself; hence, not all student films are automatically "experimental," for not all students are attempting to accomplish this.
It can be argued - and I imagine it was the original impression here - that the term "experimental" merely meant a project as an attempt to arrive at a specific end, in which case - I suppose - almost all endeavors are experimental.
However, though that technically is true in my case - as it is with most others, thus rendering the term moot - my motivation for placing that word before "documentary" in my description was to evoke those films of Brakhage, Michael Snow, Trinh T. Minh, and others - people with whom I would expect Deeej (and hopefully others) to be familiar. If you are not, though, I encourage you to look them up; they're very interesting people with very interesting projects to their name.
The point of my posting this experimental documentary, though, was not to garner praise, nor was it posted under the impression that everyone here would have taken an Experimental Film class and therefore understand what I was evoking. The point was to expose you to the events - and, more importantly, the varying opinions generated by those events - which occured on my campus last semester.
I thought it would be a good discussion piece for the forum to hear what students, members of clubs like prism, and faculty members had to say about toleration and descrimination. I had hoped that people would be able to relate, agree, or disagree with what was said, for the topics brought up in the piece are very relevant to present day goings-on.
Instead, it turned into a thread of technical criticisms and personal preferences regarding music - not what I expected but still pretty interesting.
Now, if anyone had an emotional, intellectual, or academic reaction to what was SAID in the piece, I would love to take this time to discuss it, for I feel the issues of toleration, acceptance, bigotry, and hate (in short, WHAT the project was made of) are much more important than HOW it was made.
-Matthew
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Machelli wrote:
> Experimental film (as a genre) encompasses those movies which stretch, question, or otherwise draw attention to (the conventions of) cinema itself; hence, not all student films are automatically "experimental," for not all students are attempting to accomplish this.
>
> It can be argued - and I imagine it was the original impression here - that the term "experimental" merely meant a project as an attempt to arrive at a specific end, in which case - I suppose - almost all endeavors are experimental.
>
> However, though that technically is true in my case - as it is with most others, thus rendering the term moot - my motivation for placing that word before "documentary" in my description was to evoke those films of Brakhage, Michael Snow, Trinh T. Minh, and others - people with whom I would expect Deeej (and hopefully others) to be familiar. If you are not, though, I encourage you to look them up; they're very interesting people with very interesting projects to their name.
>
> The point of my posting this experimental documentary, though, was not to garner praise, nor was it posted under the impression that everyone here would have taken an Experimental Film class and therefore understand what I was evoking. The point was to expose you to the events - and, more importantly, the varying opinions generated by those events - which occured on my campus last semester.
>
> I thought it would be a good discussion piece for the forum to hear what students, members of clubs like prism, and faculty members had to say about toleration and descrimination. I had hoped that people would be able to relate, agree, or disagree with what was said, for the topics brought up in the piece are very relevant to present day goings-on.
>
> Instead, it turned into a thread of technical criticisms and personal preferences regarding music - not what I expected but still pretty interesting.
Well, my replies had less to do with musical preferances and more to do with being able to hear and concentrate on the issues presented. If you absolutly HAVE to have a musical background in a documentary then keep the sound level in the background..... Allow the issues to speak for themselves rather than masking them.
>
> Now, if anyone had an emotional, intellectual, or academic reaction to what was SAID in the piece, I would love to take this time to discuss it, for I feel the issues of toleration, acceptance, bigotry, and hate (in short, WHAT the project was made of) are much more important than HOW it was made.
If you want the issues presented to be discussed then present the piece so it can be heard...
It is just that simple...
>
> -Matthew
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So, show of hands: how many people couldn't hear ANY of the dialogue? Huh, I thought not.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
You obviously do not understand what I am trying to say.....
Or refuse to.... Whatever be the case..........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have no great love for documentary and have never studied it academically. So in fact the only things I can comment on with any authority are the technical things, as they apply to any film (except for wildly experimental ones, I suppose). On everything else, it is a matter of personal preference.
So far you haven't responded to my original review, so I'm not sure to what extent you are irritated at me in particular. All I can say is that my overriding perception of the film was that I found the "thread" (if there was one) very difficult to follow. You ask whether I could relate to what the interviewees were saying: well, my response to that is, how can I if I am not sure what they are saying?
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
I heard the interviews. But I found they were masked by "stuff", so I lost concentration, and just listened for sound bites.
The thing is - I did this out of courtesy to you. I know that sounds discourteous, but on TV I would have changed the channel because the structure prevebted me from becoming involved.
I lost track of the message.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...is that you could not hear what was said. However, this is not the issue, for you seem to be the only one with this problem. Perhaps you should purchase new speakers/headphones/turn up the volume.
I can sympathize with not wanting music to get in the way; I can't work with music in the background, either, but I doubt - for as of now, you are the only one who has said - that the dialogue is overpowered to the point of being obscured.
I would encourage anyone reading THIS post to go back and read my previous one, where I define "experimental film." I would also like to re-invite everyone to focus on the topics explored in the film, unless, of course, you can't hear them, which - I concede - is a possibility, remote though it may be.
ALSO, "ooh...burn" is a joke, Marc. I guess you didn't get what I was saying.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...I wouldn't ask ANYBODY to sit through a movie they couldn't hear or would have otherwise stopped watching.
It was merely my intention to begin an involved thread about the issues raised in the film, but - since no one can hear it - 'guess that can't happen.
My bad, everyone.
Though, it seemed to play fine on my computer and the others on which I checked it.
-Matthew
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The music was motivated (as mentioned before) by the minimalist school of composition and by the cyclical nature of the arguments.
The participants were members of prism (the LGBTQ..etc...organization on campus), ALA (the African Latino Society), the ACC (Asian Culture Club), and the Faculty (specifically, the philosophy department).
The cup - for there was only one - was filled with lighter fluid (hence the pan to it at the end) and was symbolic of "adding fuel to the fire."
I've already defined "experimental film" in a lower post. See that for what I mean by the term.
Personally, I don't feel the "meta-documentary" section does exist outside of everything else, for that's rather the point of the film. I put together a documentary that could exist by itself and then commented ON that product, calling into question the "non-biased" nature of documentaries. It's also meant to distance you - like modernist cinema - from the project, so you can think objectively about it. The whole thing is designed to actually take you out of the film and make you think critically about what is being said.
Thanks so much for the constructive criticism. I do appreciate it.
-Matthew
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Ok...... With reguard to all media.....
I watch ALOT of documentaries..... PBS in particular..... This may seem constricted in todays media market where hundreds of channels are available but the fact is that I only have 12 channels on my cable plan......
I have the smallest plan because I only watch PBS and with this deal I get
Toledo and Cleveland so I am good to go with it......
The second reason that I go with the smallest plan is the fact that most all programming on TV is garbage. Plain and as simple as that....
Now, that being said, I am a busy person. I run 2 businesses and have very little time for distractions. I opened your film effort and listened the entire program. When it got to the end I was no better off than I was no better off than when I first opened your post. I was at the time busy working on a graphic set on one computer and doing a series of updates to websites on another. I would have prefered to filter out the musical part of your project so I could have an even chance of assimilating its information. As it was that tune was bouncing around in my head for most of the day....
I would realy like to hear all the issues presented but I just do not have the time to sit and watch with both ears tuned and all four eyes rivited in order get the full impact of your presentation.
I am sorry if this rankles a bit.... but if you are going to make for yourself a career in film/video/media you must present your work to your audience as an offering, not as a test of endurance.
All this being said..... I look forward to more of your work.....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Matthew,
I know absolutely zip about movie making. The closest I get is the DVD player. I watched your documentary. Just from a kids point of view (trust me documentaries are not my kind of movie), it seemed to be ok, but! The music (the tinkle bell thing) would break up the talking. If I strained real hard I could make out what they were saying. Like I said, I dont know squat. I have watched commercial movies where the back ground music would actually over come the what someone was saying. the bell sound should never have been used, its to piercing, and the volume should have been lower and the volume of the speakers increased. Sorry I think overall it was ok, but then arnt you in college learning?
Ok, Im gonna duck befor stuff starts flying.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...Thanks anyway, buddy.
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm sorry I robbed you of your sixteen minutes.
However, please examine the second-to-last sentence in your post, and think about the ramifications that advice has on film - not as a commercial entity - but as an art-form.
Just a thought.
Also, once I get home, I have plenty of very "mainstream" productions that may fair better here.
I can't believe I failed so miserably in generating a thoughtful discussion.
A well, live and learn, right everybody?
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How did you expect to glean anything other than the most topical comprehension if you were otherwise engaged?
viðrar vel til loftárása
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
See,,, Thats my point.... You didnt rob me of 16 minutes..... While working with your film in the background I just couldnt pick up on the train of issues you were presenting at least to any specific degree.....
Of course I know the entire theme was tollerance.... I also know that there was an incident at Ithaca College sometime in the near past.....
Somethign to do with out of line remarks and graffiti....
Personaly as someone apart from the immediacy of the incidents I would have liked the opportunity to read some of the background articles that momentarily flashed across the screen.....
I fully empathise with your point that you expected an intercourse centered about the issues presented in your film. But, we all know you are first a film student and second a film maker.... Knowing this it would be assumed you were looking for some sort of critical review and or assessment of your work purely from an observational standpoint.
As far as the issues (I just watched it with full on concentration) I think you know full well how we as a group stand as reguards tollerance. Here in Sandusky our little PFLAG offers a scholarship and one of the requirements is a 5 page essay on the subject of tollerance....
Bigotry and ignorance go hand in hand.... We see it more as being outside the mainstream of society.... The people that go about reciting racial slurs or plastering walls with improper graffiti have stereotypical images of everyone who might talk or look or dress or live a little bit differently. They use these false immages - which incidently have been imprinted upon them through generations - to foster thier hate.
As we as a group become more public in our efforts to become admitted into an equalized society the hate of bigots will ever be reinforced....
Their homelife breeds hate because they see "us" as taking something away from them. Their churchlife also reinforces these notions with the added burdeon of "living against Gods plan".
The only hope we have as a society is to put these pety differences aside and exhult in the diversity we ALL SHARE.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
ECACTLY
I am busy.... very busy......
I want to hear without the distraction of the music.....
I have enough distraction as it is......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc said:
>I am sorry if this rankles a bit.... but if you are going to make for yourself a career in film/video/media you must present your work to your audience as an offering, not as a test of endurance.
Machelli said,
>However, please examine the second-to-last sentence in your post, and think about the ramifications that advice has on film - not as a commercial entity - but as an art-form.
There are no ramifications. No audience will watch a film unless they can get something out of it. That doesn't mean that a film can't be non-commercial and artistic -- there are plenty of people who want to watch films that are non-commercial and artistic. But it has to have some merit that somebody will appreciate (even if it's only yourself), or you might as well not have done it.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I thought this was a discussion, and IM sure there are many diff opinions. You dont have anything to appologise for and you shouldnt. its unfortunate that the biggest issue about your film is the music. What the people have to say should be whats important, not the background music or the settings. Those are just eye and ear candy and should be mutted. Some things that are so silly can break out into a disscussion fest for weeks, some dont, you just never know. To earn a burning file folder is pretty good tho.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
I guess this genre isn't as wide-spread as I thought.. 
Oooh....BUUURRRN! 
Apologies all around... 
HAHAHA... 
