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Do some people actually believe and practice this?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess it depends what they have to say......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Come on Brian- give us some point of reference here- what exactly do you mean? The old fashion 'don't speak unless you are spoken to' or the more modern take on things 'be respectful of adults'?
The real question is are you interested in raising good children - or good adults? The very qualities that we admire in 'good' children are exactly what we DO NOT want in adults.
I think our goal is to raise good adults, so I have always expected my children to be opinionated, loud, and self assured. And then I have attempted to mold and moderate that into something I could live in the same house with.
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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That's an interesting take on it Rutlust! How did it work? Ted
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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That's real old fashioned brian.. Your redneck family still in the dark ages?? Ted
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I have never subscribed to the view that age entitles a person to being respected. I find unpleasant young people tend to becime deeply unpleasant older people. I also never find that their death is anything to make them better respected.
I believe in listening to children and talking to them, not at them. And agreeing or disagreeing with them rationally. And most important I believe in apologising to them when I am wrong.
Thsi is not because they are children. Children have no magic because they are young. They are simply people who are worthy of respect until they insist on proving otherwise.
The only thing a child lacks is experience, but that is something time will cure.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My red neck family still lives in caves. There are people who dont even talk at kids. They talk around them as if what they have to say is not worth listening to. If another adult is around they will speak to that adult instead of the kid about something the kid brought up.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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that's bad.. real bad. they'll get theirs someday. and you'll get away..
I agree with timmy's assessment posted above.
TeddyB.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished. (KJB, Ecclesiastes 4:13)
What? Cossie quoting Scripture? Surely not! But yes - I've never denied that there is a storehouse of wisdom in the Bible if it is read intelligently.
Yes, Brian, even in God's own realm of Scotland there are stupid parents, and I guess that they'll be around for some time to come. But they ARE stupid, because - insidiously - their arrogance is imprinting itself on their children, who may thus become equally stupid parents in turn.
I think that it is possible to talk to even very young children without talking down to them; obviously you need to use a simpler vocabulary, but most kids respond remarkably well to one-on-one communication. All you need to remember is to be prepared to explain the reasons for potentially unpopular decisions and never, ever to say 'no' if there is the remotest likelihood that you will subsequently change it to 'yes'!
From 7 or 8, most kids - given a chance - can hold their own in an adult conversation, provided they have been taught the rudiments of courtesy so that they don't try to become the sole focus of attention.
It is true that teenagers - through no fault of their own - lack experience, but by the same token they lack the accumulated baggage of presumptions which characterises later life. A bright teenager may - and, in my experience, often does - demonstrate greater insight than an experienced adult, particularly in creative situations.
So the child has as much - and sometimes more - to contribute that an adult, and a refusal to acknowledge this simply reflects upon the intelligence and maturity of the adult.
I should of course make it absolutely clear that these principles apply to normal, civilised society and thus, by definition, can have no application in the caves of Rednecksville!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Cossie-
What poppy-cock! Write for the Truth - not for the reader. If I want to eat cotton candy i'll go to the side show.
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Poppycock??? Excuse me! I don't know much but I do know children and Cossie's talking plain honest sense. I have no problems with what he wrote - what's your's Simon?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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cossie wrote:
> I think that it is possible to talk to even very young children without talking down to them; obviously you need to use a simpler vocabulary, but most kids respond remarkably well to one-on-one communication. All you need to remember is to be prepared to explain the reasons for potentially unpopular decisions and never, ever to say 'no' if there is the remotest likelihood that you will subsequently change it to 'yes'!
>
The only areas where this does not hold true are where they ask for an explanation of something where there is so much to know first before you can even get to the explanation of what they need to know that they will have become very bored.
I have found that a child responds well to being told "I can give you the simple answer now. There is a lot of extra stuff to learn about for the full answer. And we can learn about it if you like."
They will also accept a "Because I say so" reason if you explain why you are saying so - a seeming paradox. What I mean is "Dad, can I see this porn film?" "No, the film is unsuitable"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.
Dear brian,
I found, as I first got out into the world, that on the whole most adults acted maturely. However I was surprised to find there remain a few that seemed to mature no further than some of the kids I remembered in my first years of school.
These acted & reacted with the same silly child like responses & mindset of children!! They\\'d pick on others or dislike them because they were different, form little cliques, etc, etc.
It sorta blew me away.. But they\\'re out there as you know.. actually you were born among some, so it sounds. I\\'m thankful to have born into college educated, truthful parents, though there were some faults that affected me.. Just be aware that they\\'re out there. When on your own you\\'ll be able to avoid these kind more and associate with those your comfortable with. You may have little tolerance for them though (or maybe much??) due to your years of living under their infantile ways of thinking..
Cossie wrote:
>It is true that teenagers - through no fault of their own - lack experience, but by the same token they lack the accumulated baggage of presumptions which characterises later life. A bright teenager may - and, in my experience, often does - demonstrate greater insight than an experienced adult, particularly in creative situations,
I agree so much! Not to go into the advantages brought by age, but a youth some ways thinks & dreams more clearly. Their hearts not yet hardened by the frustrations of life.. I dislike the hurts I carry & their influence in my life..
It still seems true to me that we formulate dreams, goals & ideals in the first perhaps 16 years of our lives, then spend all the rest of our time trying to make them come true. The rub comes in trying to implement said dreams & ideals among the unforeseen happenings life brings.
I strive now to keep life in perspective as big new adventure! To enjoy each event from a child-like perspective, even appreciating riding in a car as I did as a child when it was new & exciting! I succeed to varying degrees, but it\\'s the greatest mind trick I\\'ve found to date!
One happy thing to know is that heart of our youth did not die, rather remains shielded or obscured by the activities & sediment of life.. For me it doesn't take much to get back to the dreams & hopes of youth, but our minds necessarily focus more on the present step in attaining these dreams!
Fooey on anyone who represses a child either thru ignorance or intentionally. Equity comes with adulthood (as much as it can ever come in this world) as we get out on our own & try to do it better for those who follow us.
You are in our thought & prayers Brian, your plights drew me here initially.. & keep me coming back! We love you & are here to help any way we can!!
A friend to those in need.. as I need friends too.. I thank yo al for tolerating me. TeddyBear
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Rutlust must be in jest. He has that sort of humor.. Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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There is an old saying around here and it goes something like this.....
"Now you know why tigers eat their young"
It essentialy means that some kids are worth having around and then there are some that would be better off elsewhere......
Usualy when the "old saying" is invoked it is directed towards the parents of the errant children.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I just wasn't in my usual dissertation mode last night! I guess that I envisaged this sort of thing being included under the umbrella of simplified vocabulary, but you are right to clarify the matter.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... you might like to clarify your views.
All I can say is that I brought my own kids up that way, and without any major problems. Both are now pretty well-adjusted and tolerant adults.
I also spent several year involved in youth work, and (though there were of course some failures) I found that talking one-on-one without being condescending or judgemental could achieve remarkable results. Some 'trouble-makers' had clearly never before had the experience of talking on a level playing field.
What I wrote was what I truly believe; if you find it impossible to accept, I think I'm more sorry for you than angry with you.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but (though, as ever, there will be exceptions) most kids who would be 'better off elsewhere' are victims of parental inadequacy. At one extreme they may be starved of love, at the other they may be over-indulged. Perhaps we should eat the tigers and adopt the cubs!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Timmy, what a nice way to put it. I bet your kids grow up to be good people.
Ken
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My experience with children is quite limited....... I do however see alot of kids in my little shop mostly because it is a little kid magnet.... We sell army/navy surplus.... Most behave well and we most often encourage them to play with some of what is displayed.... We keep the machetes out of reach:-/ We also encourage questions of any sort.... as I am of the opinion that the only stupid question is the one one fears to ask.... Where we have to draw the line is at horseplay within our little space and I am not shy as ordering a parent to control or remove an errant child.... Usually, when it gets to this point I fast learn how the child came by this behavior....
The parents response tends to read volumes....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Brian, I have been a mentor at the elementary and middle school in my area for a few years now and have found one thing to be very true. If you encourage a child to speak his mind and really listen to what he has to say you will grow and learn yourself.
I have used that phrase in the past with my children and they know that because of the way they were raised, it was spoken in jest.
People who have been unable to speak their own minds are believers of this myth because that is how they were taught.
This board is one place where that phrase is not accepted and the opposite is encouraged.
Hugs, Charlie
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It's just occurred to me that I haven't yet posted to this thread; and, given the extreme levels of non-activity on this board over the last couple of days, it's pretty inexcusable.
>Children should be seen and not heard
>Do some people actually believe and practice this?
I suppose they do. I have been lucky enough never to encounter it myself. It used to be the maxim, or, at least, the supposed maxim, in many Victorian homes; but then families were usually larger, and the children were looked after and cared for separately by a nanny and/or governess, who would be responsible for all aspects of the children's welfare -- including interacting with them in their parents' stead. That system sounds fairly alien to us (even the Royals have largely abandoned the practice) but I don't think it did any lasting harm.
On the other hand, when it is used as an excuse to shirk proper child-rearing duties, it is abhorrent.
What defines a child is an interesting question. I am pretty much in accordance with the traditional British educational system on this one; at about 12 or 13 most children are perfectly capable of autonomous, independent thought, and, intellectually speaking, are no longer really children. Hence there is no problem sending them (for example) to boarding school. In my case, the freedom I found there was an important step on the road to adulthood: the teachers were very receptive to our ideas, and valued critical thought above learning by rote.
The more I talk to people from other cultures and educational systems, the more I become aware that that is not necessarily the norm. At many schools (and homes) the maxim is, "do the work and be quiet"; or more precisely, "regurgitate the facts and shut up". The closest I have ever got to anthing like that was at my pre-prep school, when I was 7; there was one particular teacher who (apparently; I only discovered some years afterwards, when my mother told me) resented the fact that I was often ahead of the rest of the class. I do know that she would penalise me over the most trivial errors, tell me to be quiet and pay attention whenever I queried anything, and would mark my work harshly compared to others'. I have to say I was not really aware of it at the time: at that age, what adults said, went. In retrospect, maybe I should have been: but what could I actually have done about it? Luckily, my parents did pay enough attention to see what was happening and subsequently sent me to a much better school.
Deeej
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Deeej,
I attend what is called a magnet school. It is far superior to the regular schools. The magnet schools are geared academicly. You have to have and maintain at least a 3.5 average to attend. I hated the other schools. If you tried to voice a different idea ot not think like they wanted you to, you were in trouble. I was so glad to get away from that. Whats the saying? Those that can do, those that cant teach.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... my ambition was to be a teacher, and I duly qualified. Then I decided that whilst I would be entirely happy to spend the rest of my working life in the company of kids, I couldn't stand the thought of spending it with other teachers! As with anything, there are exceptions (take a bow, Sailor!) but far too many have negligible experience of the real world but think they know everything about everything.
On second thoughts, Bri, you don't need to be careful - you're probably right!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Brian,
I'm really glad you're at a good school. You're undoubtedly very intelligent and I hope that the school can help foster your interests (in a creative and artistic way, not just an academic one).
I have absolutely no respect for bad teachers. In most non safety-critical industries, if a person does his best, but is still not terribly good at his or job, it doesn't really matter: it's a matter for him and his superiors. Teaching is one profession where poor quality work will directly and adversely affect other people -- often impressionable people who are not necessarily aware that they are not getting the quality of education they should be.
If I were a little more patient, less hopelessly disorganised, and passionately interested in a single academic subject, I might consider becoming a teacher. As it is, I don't think I'd be good enough.
David
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Hi again Deej! )
Glad to hear of the quality of the british upper schools. I dropped out of the government schools here because of severe boredom & my social probs.
Regugitating facts seemed the stupidest practice i could imagine. At least in northern USA they've had trade schools for years for kids that want to learn to do something instead of reciting things from memory. memory isn't a strong point of mine anyway!
Gotta go now, see y'all later
TeddyBear 
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Thanks, Cossie! 
I enjoy teaching and being together with my students. When I had my birthday a few of weeks ago my class stood up, singing not only one birthday song but many, in different languages. And my tears were not far away.
But, honestly, it's not always that rosy!
"My" kids are 13 to 16 years old, and are to a great extent preoccupied with what's going on during their puberty, with establishing or breaking up relationships, and looking for safety while at the same time testing rules and cutting bonds - or while their parents are finding new partners. For many of the kids building a basis for an academic or a vocational career takes a back seat during this period of time, and teaching can indeed be a challenge. A major part of a teacher's job is then to motivate, encourage and being an adult the kids can trust and maybe be friends with. Gradually, the curriculum takes front seat again, and at the age of 16 most of them know, and are satisfied with, in what directon to steer.
What frustrates me, and many of my colleagues with years of experience, is all the things that administrators, bureaucrats and politicians make me do, and which are not related to teaching. The most important job of many politicians, bureaucrats or administrators is to lick the nose of a dog higher up in the hierarchy, crawling and anxiously waving their tails, presenting paperwork with ingeniously crafted new words, with fabulous ideas of re-organizing schools to save money and attract the press.
Some teachers are, understandably, preoccupied with keeping their jobs, which means sticking to the rules of hierarchy and pecking order. Therefore, Brian, doing a good job teaching the curriculum, is therefore less important these days than saying what pleases the alpha male or female, and knowing your place in the pack.
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Re: Better is a poor and a wise child ... 
