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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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We are definitely all the better for not critiquing stories here. A critique always deals with what is below standard, somehow, never what is great.
Is there a way we can say what we like in stories in general, and maybe use stories we know, on this site or elsewhere, as examples of what we think is good writing?
I kind of want to discuss whether we can do this before we decide whether to start doing it. After all, making a huge paen of praise is not good either
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Perhaps we could talk about what stories we have each found helpful in understanding ourselves and others, and why they were helpful to us?
These wouldn't necessarily be of any great literary merit (although they might be). I'd certainly find it interesting to know what stories have helped others, and would be happy to say a bit about the stories that have had a real influence on me ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings NW
I think that stories offer the rare opportunity to truly see something from another's point of view, and therefore; there is value in even stories that may not be of the highest craftsmanship. POV and craftsmanship not necessarily equally distributed to all writers.
I discovered this board because someone wanted me to read a story published here in hope that I would understand him better.
I also understand the fear that the Boss sighted. It is so hard to be creative and so easy to criticize. If the scale were balanced, perhaps the criticism would be more worthwhile.
Regards-
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The challenge with a critique is that it is almost always not a critique, but an attempt to edit without actually doing the work of the editor.
Every so often I get a story submitted to me that is both wholly substandard technically and a tour de force emotionally. Handling that issue is something for a good editor. Once the technicalities are dealt with then the story becomes readable. Once it is readable then emotions can flow the more easily.
If the story were posted in its substandard form any critique on it woudl probably call it trash without spotting the emotional highs and lows it provided. And yet all the critic is saying is "bad editing job", not "bad story".
Now, after a good edit the story may still be emotionally poor. Thsi is where a critique is useful. But it is also horrible to have one's friends criticise a story thatone has sweated over.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>Is there a way we can say what we like in stories in general, and maybe use stories we know, on this site or elsewhere, as examples of what we think is good writing?
Simple stories -- but ones with grand scope: stories that presents genuine, believable characters, and depict how those characters change over the course of the story. The character drives the story; the story should never drive the characters.
As for genre: I used to love science fiction, adventure, mystery and (in film) action, but I've come to realise that all too often spectacle and flights of imagination end up dwarfing character development and drama. That's why gay love stories can work so well: not because the format is necessarily in any way original, but because the restrictions of the genre force writers to focus more on character and less on situation.
Examples? I'll give it some thought and post again. I have to confess that I haven't really kept up with the latest stories on this site: I read most of them when Timmy was still writing Chris and Nigel.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First and foremost, I have always felt that Timmy's wish to avoid any adverse criticism of hosted stories on this forum was eminently sensible. There are some sites - a good example being http://www.awesomedude.com - which have literary pretentions and specifically invite comments and criticism; authors who post there are, in effect, accepting the likelihood that their work will be subjected to critical scrutiny. That has never been the case here. Timmy's hosted authors are a diverse group; there is no overtly professional atmosphere and the whole set-up is much more cosy and intimate. That makes the site rather special, and I would not like to see the ethos change. I'd strongly contend, therefore, that the 'no adverse criticism' policy should remain in place.
That doesn't mean that stories on the site cannot be quoted as examples of good practice. Good writing deserves commendation, though I have to say that there is a significant divide between commendation and adulation!
I posted a mini-dissertation of my views about who writes gay stories and why. From the same observations I conclude that there are three primary categories of reader. Firstly, there are those in search of jack-off material; I don't think they are particularly relevant to this site. Secondly, there are young gays who are seeking reassurance about their feelings; there is a good deal to help them here. A proportion of this group will try their hand at writing themselves. Thirdly, there are older gays, many of whom are drawn to stories by nostalgia - either for what once was, or in many cases for what might have been. Again, some of this group will begin to write their own stories.
Obviously, I fall with a resounding thump into the third category! I admit that the opportunity to wallow in nostalgia is a significant objective. I enjoy a wide variety of stories, with a perhaps understandable preference for British locations - which attracts me to Nigel's stories, to Mike Arram's series and of course to Timmy's own work. There's much else in this category to be found here - for example, the work of recent 'new author' David (who, incidentally, has also written a couple of good longer stories, which will presumably appear in due course) - but my comments are intended to be illustrative rather than exhaustive.
Like everyone else, I have enjoyed Grasshopper's tales, and Journeyman's epic 'Journey of Love'. I particulary enjoyed the humour and simplicity of the short stories by The Scholar, of much-lamented memory, and I have found the same easy comfort in Kiwi's 'Westpoint Tales'. A Westpoint Tale before bed is becoming almost as necessary as a glass of malt whisky!
The material here is well above average, and I have little doubt that this is due to Timmy's careful oversight. A discussion - better still, periodic discussions - of good material elsewhere cannot, in my view, be other than a Good Thing (with apologies to Sellars and Yeatman - it's an 'in' British joke!).
Nifty is an invaluable resource for the GLBT community, but the gay male section is so vast and of such variable quality that it would be very useful to hear other posters' views on what constitutes a worthwhile read. Of course, 'The Best of Nifty' helps, but there is much more good material to be found if one is prepared to search.
I think that our band of regular posters can be trusted to focus upon positive criticism, and though in the nature of things there will be disagreements I am sure that this will not damage the huge store of goodwill and friendship we all share. Yes, I know that's cheesy, but can you seriously argue that it's wrong?
Finally, if anyone fancies trying their hand as an author but would like some assistance with editing, I'd be very happy to help. I CAN dispense with erudite words when I need to - I've been an occasional contributor to magazines for upwards of thirty years, and if you were to read some of the stuff I'd written, I'll bet you wouldn't believe I'd written it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Exhaystive???? Im trying to catch my breath after reading this. ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Ok, that was supposed to be exhaustive. )
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... you should know that Grandads are always right! I demand an apology!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I apologise. Im just trying to be the scotsman your teaching me to be. Here have another glass of whisky.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That is very much my point.
Now the stories here are "unique" only in the way I collect them. I publish the ones I like. Some are literary masterpeices, others are not. The only common thread is that something in them catches my inagination.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What I think I'd like to happen anyway is a new author having at least a little "I liked this because" feedback when his or her story is posted. Many new authors here have never written before except in school. They've had to unblearn formal language of essays and enter the rather odd world of dialogue, colloquial language, sometimes abnormal syntax, often unconventional grammer.
And they are exposing their first born child to the public gaze.
The fact that I publish the tale is somehow not "praise enough", because, despite my liking a story well enough to publish it (again by no means always because it is technically worthy, just because I like it), my act of publishing is "simply the act that exposes the story"
So I think we should each take it as, not a duty, but a privilege, to be among the first to say "Well done because......"
I am not restricting myself to stories, here. Poems are sometimes harder to write than a story. They take as long to perfect. If a poem paints a picture for you, let's tell the poet so.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Sitting back and hollowly droning on about how wonderful a work is while being abjectly forbidden from offering critical annalysis is somewhat pointless.
It kind of reminds me of reading the "letters to the editor" section of the local news rag..... They only publish what letters they deem will make them look good..... not what is newsworthy.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There is a difference between making a post praising something to the heavens (detestable, I agree) and saying "I like the way this author phrases this element", or "This segment rang a bell with me because....."
This is really why I want to discuss the topic before opening it up to segments of works.
As you will see, the works on this site have no real literary pretensions, though individual works may have some merit. Equally there may be highly literary works elsewhere that have no place on this site (my own opinion!) that could be topics for conversation here.
What I truly do not want to do is to make this forum pretentious and self important.
My thoughts, such as they were, when I started tis thread were that one might say "When [author] in [story wrote '[segment]' I found the rhythm took me at breathtaking pace through a rollercoatser of emotions. Looking at the segment in detail I think this may be because of the unusual approach to puctuation in this part, while the remainder of the punctuation was conventional."
The reason I prefer to avoid the negatives is simple. Accentuating the positive encourages all authors to be better. Commenting upon a negative, however satisfying it might be to let someone know that the work was "below par in spelling and was unatmospheric" (for example) simply discourages the author from trying again in many cases.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Rigel
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Getting started |
Registered: May 2005
Messages: 9
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I think the distinction of reply you seek is not along the lines of positive-praise/negative-pointing-out-of-flaws but rather a dimension of supportive/destructive criticism. At some of the other forums I participate in (awesomedude, gayauthors, etc.), the majority of the story discussions are respectful of the author and the work. Constructive comments about technical style, grammar niceties, and plotting improvements help writers learn their craft. Most of the bellyaches are aimed at particularly unpleasant characters rather than the author ("___ is such a slut"). Members who join these forums must be careful in their comments--we're discussing an author's baby when we analyze a story, and one way of exercising such control of contibutors is to create a forum (or subforum) where only members may post, and where disruptive posts may be deleted and disruptive members may be banned.
--Rigel
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I would say that I am looking at nurturing authors by highlighting what is good.
An example is a school experiment whsoe pedigreee I cannot recall and which may even be apocryphal.
A class was sorted alphabetically and even numbers placed with one teacher and odd numbers with another. No behavioural or skills analysis took place. Teacher one was told that the class she was given were over acheivers, or were expected to be. Teacher two was told that the class s/he had were underacheivers.
After a year the class of alleged overachievers was well ahead of the alleged under acheivers, simply because of the difference in expectation of the teachers.
Intellectually I feel this is apocryphal. It is easy enough to spot real over and underachievers. But the story as a story has a point.
Show an author what is good and liked and that author will glow and will produce, we hope, more of what is good.
Now I am not in the business of giving false praise, and I do not like the idea of praising rubbish. Nor does anyone else. Thus this will not, I think, become "Praise for the sake of praise"
I understand about subforums. We do not use them here simply because I do not like them. Megaman and I thought about it some time ago and decided that, though technically possible, we would not implement them. Our view of community is different from other places. Not better, just different. "More of the same" is probably not required. Equally I do not like forums where guests may not post, though we have sometimes had to close this board to those who do not regioster I have always opened it when the disruptve element desisted, and I hate banning a member.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have gone to some of the other forums. The ones that are moderated are under any ryme or reason, IMpossible to argue against it, CENSORED. What I like about the forum here, If something is disruptive, its eliminated after the fact and Timmy tells everyone why. That way we get to see who is a true butt head. If I accidently step over the line, Timmy will tell me and Im not gonna take offense. Most of these stories are written by guys for enjoyment, not publication. I dont expect Ernest Himingway out of them. So if you cut down their work, they are gonna quit and we are the sadder off for it. Some of the guys writting are not a lot older than I am. Im not a professional critic and as far as I know nobody here is. Its like movie critics, if its not french or German it crap. If its a box office sell out, its crap, if it drives you to tears, oh its really good. They dont know how to make movies, never actually worked in the movie business, what give them the right to critique a movie? Its the same with books. If you can write better than Grasshopper, then you can critisize his work, if you cant, then dont open your mouth.
Ok, Im thru ;-D ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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>They dont know how to make movies, never actually worked in the movie business, what give them the right to critique a movie?
It depends what sort of movie critic you're talking about. If they are reviewing for a newspaper or movie enthusiast's magazine, then they are usually trying to reflect public opinion -- if a movie is good, then they will advise people to see it; and if it isn't, they will advise them to give it a miss. At least in theory. If they consistently get public opinion wrong, then they will (or at least should) be out of a job.
If you're talking about "serious" critics -- I agree with you. Sometimes they say a film is glorious when it's actually incredibly tedious to watch. But the thing is, normally they are not writing for you, the man on the street. They are writing for other "serious" critics, who will go all googly-eyed when they watch the it.
As for whether critics should be able to criticise what they cannot themselves produce -- the sad fact is that there are always many times more people who appreciate art than can generate it in the first place. And sometimes critics can voice faults better than other artists, who may not want to devote the time or risk their own careers to criticise their peers. I generally respect the opinion of those who create more than those who soley consume, but sometimes the only opinions one can find are those of professional critics. The real artists are out there creating, and are too busy or unwilling to take on the burden of criticism as well.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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But if you can write only one tenth as well as Hemmingway yu can still say whatg you like and why
That is where I'm coming from
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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they are made for viewers, so it is the consumers (viewers) who should be the final critic. If the subtext is so refined that only 'insiders' understand the context, then it is a 'bad' job.
Often times a critic goes against the flow of public opinion because they, by the nature of their work, have greater understanding and insight than the hoy ploy (sp). Most critics preview work that has yet to be made generally available, and this allows for the dichotomy.
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I've already said that I believe that the convention of avoiding criticism of hosted authors should continue. That, I think, is the crucial issue. What is special about this forum is the relatively low-key, friendly and intimate atmosphere which has developed over the years; for this reason - and, admittedly, for this reason alone - I don't think we should entertain any change which might put that atmosphere at risk.
I don't disagree with Rigel in his comments about awesomedude.com and gayauthors.com. I am sure that many of the authors whose work is hosted there do actively seek criticism in order to develop their writing skills. Those sites offer a valuable service to those who wish to tread that path. My point is simply that the authors hosted here did NOT come here in search of critical analysis, and in my view it would not be right to thrust such criticism upon them.
I am not specifically opposed to adverse criticism of writers who are not hosted here, though in the context of this site I don't think it would serve any significant purpose.
I see the discussion of stories in this forum as serving two distinct but equally valuable objectives. Firstly, there is Timmy's prime objective of encouraging new talent and potential talent among the hosted authors. Secondly, there is the opportunity to recommend good stories hosted elsewhere, so that others can read the same stories and agree or disagree about their merits.
Finally, there is the vexing question of my 'adopted' grandson. I have been diligently attempting to teach him the finer points of acting like a Scotsman. I thought I was having some success, but then he comes up with this ridiculous notion that you need to know what you are talking about before you set yourself up as a critic. No self-respecting Scotsman would regard total ignorance of the subject matter as any sort of limitation upon his right to express a definitive opinion on any subject under the sun. Brian, as an encouragement to do better in future, you will write out 'Scotsmen are allowed to be arrogant prats' one hundred times in your best handwriting!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Are you gonna tell me Roper and Ebert are smart. Those two are dumb as a hand full of rocks. All they are interested in are movies that you have to be on drugs to understand (maybe thats why they like them). They did not like Lord of the rings and it took 11 oscars, and was a sell out hit. But let a movie like Das Boot come out (which could bore a corpse) and they are all google eyed and think its the best thing since spam.I think Ill decide which movies are good or bad.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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But Grandfather!!!! I am being very opinionated about critics and I know absolutely nothing about them.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... perhaps you're learning faster than I thought!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This is precisley why I am not looking for crtics or critiques - because they criticise, which always has negative connotations. I am looking for people to encourage the good, and thus help our and other authors improve.
It's harder to encourage the good than to find the bad.
"Positive criticism" is a misnomer. It is similar to a sentence that starts "I don;t want to be rude, but (I am sure going to be)"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I thought we already had the ideal medium of criticism for stories and poems - the personal e-mail to the writer. Do we need to make our thoughts public?
The present system works for me.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You can not expect the one without the other.....
If I see something done well I will say so......
If I see something done badly I will say so......
And yes..... spelling and punctuation counts....
That is the risk of putting work into the public eye.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Then, since you are setting out your stall, so am I.
I will remove any comments about what is bad. I will do it without notice. And I will do it because, shoudl I open the board up to comments about authors, the rules will be that highlighting the bad is against them.
Alternatively I may decide simpluy not to do it. And I cite your post as the entire reason.
So we might as well close the dicussion now, might we not? it has moved form discussion into a dogmatic statement of intent:
> If I see something done well I will say so......
>
> If I see something done badly I will say so......
>
> And yes..... spelling and punctuation counts....
>
> That is the risk of putting work into the public eye.
That is so wholly against what I wnat to achieve as to make even trying to achieve it a matter for policing postds. I have not the time, and i suddenly do not have the interest.
This exemplifies the reasons why highlighting the "bad" is anathema to me. I am now discouraged. So I will probably not bother to do more about it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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"need"? No. I just hoped (past tense) we might be able to encourage talent. Emailing an author is great personal feedback. Saying something positive about even a small segment of their work in public shows other authors what has been appreciated in another.
But it seems we cannot have the good without others insisting on highlighting the bad. All authors write bad segments. All, without exception. And those are so easy to find. A flying apostrophe in trhe wrong place, a missed full stop. One person's opinion about use of the semicolon differes from another's. Someone objects to a phrase that starts with a capital letter and has a full stop - "Surely this should be a clause?"
I feel, now, that we cannot acheive this. Marc has insisted that he will highlight the bad. And I see very little reason, now, to bother to even try to accentuate the good lest it be destroyed by people who insist on criticising instead of encouraging.
The purpose of this thread was to find out if we could do it. It seems we cannot.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Which is probably the best course to steer.....
There realy is no such thing as a one sided coin..... Irreguardless of how much you or anyone might like there to be.
The very idea of a praise board or prase threads is quite frankly very hollow....
Personal notes thru email is always best.... Priveat thoughts with private answers.... You would loose the "private" nature of the exchange if it were placed in public....
And truth be told.... You can not rationaly expect a thread to read...
"Your story was GREAT" ..... because..... yada yada yada......
WITHOUT
"Your story was good" .... but.... yada yada yada......
OR
"Your story was bad" .... because yada yada yada......
It is the nature of people in an atmosphere of open forum combined with opinion to offer all sorts of opinion..... not just the opinion you mandate....
If this must for some reason be the case..... perhaps you could pen a canned set of "proper" responses..... so as to avoid any individual thought.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The good in anything is the good in it......
Whatever is otherwise...... well, is otherwise....
One does not cancel out the other..... One does not even dim the light on the other.....
They are opinions..... The wat a person looks at a piece of work and tells how or why it affected them or what parts made sense...... but also a person might be affected adversly or a part might not make sense....
These people have the right to speak their minds as any other.....
And spelling as well as punctuation do count in writing.....
Thats why most writers choose to have someone proof their work or find someone willing to edit for them..... And there is a tool called spellcheck as well..... it works fine for me....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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To me there are two thinsg which are apparent:
First you have consistently not understood the nature of what I am trying to achieve despite my being extremely clear in all I have written. I never spoke of a "praise board", but your statements show you have interpreted it that way
Second you have shown how the dogmatic statements of one person can remove all potential for discussion, thus destroying instead of creating.
If I sound both upset and discouraged it is because I am. Your declaration of intent to criticise negative aspects has brought this to a close. It is tantamount to censorship, and has been done by stridency. I find such "written oratory" not to my taste.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ok then..... Let me see if I understand what it is that you want(ed) to do.
You want to encourage threads reguarding writing that expouse only the merits of said work?
Am I correct?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I wanted, as I have said before and said often, to look at segments of excellenece in individual works and say why these are excellent.
Look at my original reply to your first message in this thread. You will find it concurs with your view about praise after praise after praise
I did not want to praise work to the skies. I want to look at stratagems used to create atmosphere and talk about those strategems. What I did not and do not want to do is to say "Pity about the rest of this turgid prose, why could it not all have been like the 47th paragraph"
I have not said and will not say that I want a load of posts praising stories. I do not.
I have said ofetn, and it feels like I am crying in the wilderness, that I want to encourage the good elements in stories and show authors, not only the one whose segment is being highlighted, what might be accomplished.
Please note the word "segment".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Doesn't one read a story? I know when I choose to read I read the entire piece.
I see your point about selecting a segment of a work to discuss.....
Who will do the choosing?
What criteria will be utilized for the choosing?
What criteria will be utilized for the discussion?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marc wrote:
> Doesn't one read a story? I know when I choose to read I read the entire piece.
One reads a story. Or one stops reading it.
>
> I see your point about selecting a segment of a work to discuss.....
>
> Who will do the choosing?
Anyone who finds something that says to them "Wow, this bit was special. I'd like to tell people why I think so"
>
> What criteria will be utilized for the choosing?
The segment says to them "Wow, this bit was special. I'd like to tell people why I think so"
>
> What criteria will be utilized for the discussion?
Civilised and gentlemanly or ladylike discussion of why it says to them "Wow, this bit was special. I'd like to tell people why I think so"
Nothing about this was ever intended to be rocket science. We are not a literary discussion group, nor was that what I thought might be created or wanted to create. It really comes to showing people the techniques that were used to create special items. After all, anyone can write badly. It is writing well that requires thought, emotion, good sense and the acquisition of skill.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what if it is "special" because it is not special..... Or is upsetting in some way? What is a piece is special to one but harmful to another?
No you are right, it isn't rocket science.... but it doesn't take one to know that opinion will not put a rocket on the moon....
I think looking at a situation with blinders is as harmful as going at it fully head on.
Whatever you decide you will decide....
What I wonder is what impetus caused this issue to be brought up in the first place?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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We are not speaking of "the right to speak" here. We are speaking about whether or not to open a particular sort of contribution to those who write up to the floor.
We are speaking about the opening up of a previously "off limits" conversation up in a particular manner.
It seems to me to be beyond our abilities. So this discussion was useful, if onky for that.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marc wrote:
> But what if it is "special" because it is not special..... Or is upsetting in some way? What is a piece is special to one but harmful to another?
I am speaking of the writing. It seems to me to be unlikely that the writing can be harmful, though one might not always wish to look at the topic that is written about. I do not relish descriptions of wounds, for example, but I can recognise when the writing cuases a vivid picture of a wound.
As for the rest, why always look under stones for reasons? Stones conceal creepy crawlies, but may not have reasons there. I thought it would be interesting. I thought it would be helpful. I thought it would encourage the less skilled and highly skilled alike. I thought it would perhaps encourage a new reader to an author whose work they had never looked at. I thought it would be fun. I thought it would be educational. I thought it woudl stimulate conversation.
I did not think I would now be feeling highly discouraged and demotivated.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hoy ploy!
It's Greek: hoi polloi (ΟΙ ΠΟΛΛΟ&Iota) -- "the many".
>If the subtext is so refined that only 'insiders' understand the context, then it is a 'bad' job.
Absolutely. But critics have to have a basic understanding of the medium they are criticising before they can construct any sort of persuasive argument. To a certain extent, this involves knowing how to make movies, at least on a theoretical level. Many great critics have gone on to become great movie-makers, incidentally.
David
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