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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In Europe the UK is not the most nor the least modest.
The modesty covers all things (pun intended) from beach to locker rooms at gyms and in schools.
My gym has open changing areas and like 2 cubicles for the modest, and now has installed doors on the showers where before there were none. But schools have become obsessed with rights to privacy in showers where all used to be communal. Speedos were once the norm, now flappy baggy swimwear is. Games shorts were once short, now long and baggy.
Can you describe the level of modesty where you live? Are today's kids more relaxed about their bodies than yesterday's or less relaxed?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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We have never been an immodest nation, far more covered than anywhere it Europe, but even by our own rigid standards we are far more covered now than in my youth.
I am the last generation that had mandatory nude swimming in high school and college. gang locker rooms and showers were the norm.
Now, among young mothers there are discussions about the age at which it is no longer proper for young boys to use the women's restrooms or locker rooms with their mothers. At our 'Y' the age has gone from 5 to 7 in the last few years.
In my humble opinion, the real discussion should be one of over protecting the kids. I was at a used bookstore a few weeks back, and noticed a young mother and daughter, no more than four. Every time the mom let go of the child's hand to pick up a tome the child wailed, "but mommy - I might be stole!' Caution is one thing, but abject fear is way out of line.
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I don't want to hijack the thread and move it in another direction, but I have to say that the 'do-gooder' lobby has distorted public perception alarmingly.
I don't know whether the UK experience parallels that in the USA; I suspect that it does. Certainly over here we would have to acknowledge that abuse of children was not taken sufficiently seriously until the 1980s. A large number of children were abused in family homes and - especially - in children's homes, and some of them suffered appalling physical and/or mental anguish as a result. However, large as that number was, it was a tiny proportion of the child population, and over-reaction has swung the pendulum far too far in the opposite direction, to the extent that some schools ban photography of pupils, even by parents proud to see their offspring taking part in a school play or sports competition.
This, in my view, is bloody stupid! There were always predators who preyed upon children, and until science comes up with an effective treatment, there always will be. The only significant change in recent years is the growth in car ownership and consequent mobility - but even now the vast majority of abuse occurs within the family or between individuals already known to each other.
I agree entirely with organisations such as 'Childline' in the UK, which exist to offer support and aid to abused children who approach them; we failed generations of kids before these organisations came on the scene in the 1980s. But over-protection can cause just as much mental anguish; it's very much akin to the 'reds under the bed' paranoia of 1950s America.
There is a time in childhood when the liberty to exercise independence and seek adventure is crucial to natural growth and development. To deny this is to damage the child.
I sincerely believe that the move away from communal showers and short shorts is part of the insidious agenda of over-protection. Countries such as Denmark and Holland have been pilloried for their relaxed attitudes, but I have seen no properly-researched evidence to show that child abuse in those countries is more prevalent than elsewhere; if anything, there are indications that the reverse is the case.
The nanny state offers little fore the future of mankind; the sooner we return to realism, the better.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Not hijacking at all. It is highly relevant to the topic. It shows a rationale for the current vogue for prudery.
I think there is one factual error. The schools banning photos was a stupid misinterpretation of the Data Protection Act 1998 by imbecicic pettifogging bureaucrats, and the UK Information Commissioner has issued a press release and guidance about this:
Assistant Commissioner, Jonathan Bamford, said: “I am pleased to say that parents, friends and family members can take photographs of their child and friends participating in school activities for the family album. They can also film events at school. Fear of breaching the provisions of the Data Protection Act should not be wrongly used to stop people taking photographs or filming videos.“
It is almost impossible to find on the appalling website (http://www.ico.gov.uk), though, and is in a press release, and not obviously under "guidance" at all
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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counselling.
I have a job as school; bus driver to pay the bills. We are told that we cannot touch a child except to break up a fight on the bus, and then only when asking the culprits to stop is not sufficient. Any other touching is strictly verboten, including returning a child's hug that is freely given. We also must be aware of the constant presence of "Big Brother" as evidenced by the little red light of the video camera mounted in the front of the buses. One little complaint from a parent and we are out of a job and possibly facing criminal charges.
I also volunteer as a mentor for at-risk teens. I must insist on an office with a window in the door. I cannot talk to a child without prior permission from the parent(s) or guardian. I do not give any of my mentees my home phone number (use a cell number instead) or home address. All meetings must be in public places and full view. No overnight excursions. I will not enter a mentees place of residence unless accompanied by the parent or guardian. Yet I am expected and encouraged to become close enough to the child for them to open up to me their deepest secrets and provide guidance in all subjects (including sex/puberty/intercourse because most of their parents will not). One of the most effective tools of a counselor is to develop a feeling of intimacy with their counselee to encourage free exchange of thoughts and ideas, but in today's climate it is almost impossible.
Hugs, Charlie
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings
I hadn't realized it was that encumbering. When we were actively fostering it was a intense interview process, but then you were expected to act as a parent. I wonder how much that has changed. Maybe it's time to go to lunch with our social worker.
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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>I am the last generation that had mandatory nude swimming in high school and college. gang locker rooms and showers were the norm.
I am perhaps the last generation at British schools to have mandatory nude showers (and that may be because I went to two of the most old-fashioned schools in the private sector). Between the ages of 8 and 13, and 13 and 17, all the showers were open and no-one cared (except for a master or two, who positively relished it; ahem). At 17, cubicular showers found their way into my school through health and safety regulations, or human rights legislation, or something, and suddenly everyone was terrified of their towel slipping at an inopportune moment. Bizarre.
Modesty is infectious.
David
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The radical changes in the UK came with the implementation of the Children's Act 1989.
Children suddenly had rights; unfortunately they were not counterbalanced with duties or responsibilities.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Is it actually the law that people must have cubicular showers now, or is it merely symptomatic of some sort of hysteria? I don't remember any of us complaining about the fact that the showers were open. It was just the way things were.
Incidentally, I hope there are no plans for making dormitories illegal too. Sleeping together -- I mean, in the same room -- is a great way of bonding with other people.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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From what I see, people seem to be more relaxed or less relaxed depending on where you are at the time.
Some places have segmented shower facilities and some places have general showers.
It does seem that the more expensive the membership fees are the greater the degree of privacy is available to the client.
I don't understand why you specificaly ask if kids are more or less relaxed?????
But, for what it's worth the young people that change at the local beach (open changing areas) and at the water park at Cedar Point (open as well) seem to have no problem with slipping into their swimwear and showering and such. Some will do it facing the wall and others will not....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think in the UK the child now has the right to privacy - perfectly reasonable. Equally I am not sure that privacy is mandatory
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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along with paranoia, and it appears that it resembles AIDS in that there is no known cure!
I feel a rant coming on how much 9/11 has changed American culture for the worse, but will save my vent until it is 'on topic' sometime.
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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My oh my Charlie you really hit it right on the head. I used to be involved with Boy Scouts and with Big Brothers and the way things are required to be done these days makes it impossible to mentor, in my opinion anyway.
I know that leaders are never allowed to be alone with any boy at any time, so when does the mentoring every occur? It was always preached that it had to be one on one. I had a lot of experience at summer camp with boys in the Big Brother program who had no father in the home. It was an extremely emotional experience to be a counselor for that summer. I dont know if we actually helped many of those boys, but many who had been to the camp many years ago would return to show it to their wives and children if they were able to do that.
I find that here in the USA especially we are raising a whole generation of kids that will never trust an adult. Who believe that anyone who would profess to help them is only doing that in order to get them someplace where they are able to molest them. I am not exaggerating at all about this, but there is not enough room here or time to discuss it further.
I will give you a hug right back Charlie and thank you for at least trying to help those kids. I dont know if you are going to be able to do it, but please keep trying.
Ken
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I suffered hell in mandatory gang showers as a schoolkid. I was a year younger than the average age of my class, and males in my family tend to be pretty much late developers anyway ... I was FIFTEEN MONTHS later than anyone else in starting puberty, and to say that I was ragged about it would be a serious understatement. However, I've never been at all body-shy in front of strangers, or people I trust - it's just being naked in the presence of known bullies that did (and does) scare me.
My nephew - aged twelve - is, I think, starting to worry about this kind of thing: at any rate, he initiated a couple of short discussions about age of puberty last time I saw him (Christmas). He tells me the school showers are cubicles ... but I think he may be worrying about a trip abroad he has lined up for the end of the year to play in some kind of baseball competition.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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do you never wonder "Which of the kids who teased me actually wanted me?"
The boy I obsessed over had a very late puberty, too. It somehow made him all the more dear to me. I wanted to protect him.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> do you never wonder "Which of the kids who teased me actually wanted me?"
>
No, I had all the boys I set my eye to.... Every one....
> The boy I obsessed over had a very late puberty, too. It somehow made him all the more dear to me. I wanted to protect him.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy wrote:
> do you never wonder "Which of the kids who teased me actually wanted me?"
>
Well, none of the bullies have turned out gay - as far as I know (I'm in touch with just over half my school year ... probably 2/3rds if you count those who are still "friends of friends"). Although, once we'd reached the upper sixth, I'd played around with a number of my former tormentors ( and, I admit, I rather revelled in turning the tables by being the more advanced/experienced partner).
But the much older boy who took on the role of protector to myself (and a few younger boys), helped me avoid the dreaded gang-showers ... was the person who gave me treats, took me (as I thought) seriously, in what - ultimately - I now recognise as a not untypical groom-then-abuse type relationship. I posted enough about him just over a year ago: yes, it took me 36 years to recognise it for what it was.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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