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pimple
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Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings All-
An opinion question without a right or wrong answer:
(at least I don't think so, but a Scotsman and an Englishman well correct me if I'm wrong)
In 1960 it was estimated that there were 7,500 spoken (written was about a 1,500 less) vital languages in the world. In 1995, the last time I saw the statistic, the estimate had dropped to less than 4,000 each.
My question is: If Windows does not have a version in a particular language - can that language long survive?
Gentlemen, opinions?
Regards-
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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No Message Body
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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I assume that Deeej knows this better than me, but isn't there a fair chance that you will find a Linux version of the language? 
Sailor
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Sailor:
>I assume that Deeej knows this better than me, but isn't there a fair chance that you will find a Linux version of the language?
Only if there are sufficient enthusiasts out there to make it so.
There are unlikely to be Linux versions except where there is a sufficiently large audience that Microsoft will have provided a version of Windows in that language too.
Simon:
>My question is: If Windows does not have a version in a particular language - can that language long survive?
If Microsoft can't be bothered to make a version in that language, it sounds like the language must be on its last legs already. So probably not.
David
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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No Message Body
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Presumably a lot of the languages which are under consideration here are spoken by obscure tribes getting on with making do without internet or computers and more than likely without even fridges and washing machines.
Since they've evidently done all right so far without us. I suspect as long as we keep our noses out and don't ruin their environment, there's no reason why they shouldn't go on thriving?
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Mike:
>Presumably a lot of the languages which are under consideration here are spoken by obscure tribes getting on with making do without internet or computers and more than likely without even fridges and washing machines.
>
>Since they've evidently done all right so far without us. I suspect as long as we keep our noses out and don't ruin their environment, there's no reason why they shouldn't go on thriving?
Are they thriving? I was under the impression that most young people these days -- wherever they come from -- want to join society for at least a few years, so they can be sure they are not missing anything. Of course, there they will pick up more international languages and -- possibly -- be inclined to discard their less useful native ones.
It seems to me inevitable that their languages will eventually die out.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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You'll probably have gathered by now that I very strongly believe in leaving languges alone to develop naturally; I am instinctively opposed to political intervention and support.
Languages which are useful in daily life will ultimately oust those which are of limited application.
BUT - and it's a very big but! - I'm as interested in history as I am in etymology. No language should be allowed to fade into oblivion without being subjected to stringent study and record. The future of mankind lies in unity, not individuality, but that's no reason to dismiss our heritage. I'm a Southern Scot - probably, therefore, of Anglo-Saxon rather than Gaelic ancestry - but I believe wholeheartedly that the Goidelic Celtic language should be recorded and preserved. What I don't support is the artificial promotion of languages like Brythonic Celtic (Welsh), which has no useful function to perform in the modern world other than to feed nationalistic divisions.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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YEH!!!! What he said ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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While I agree with you, Cossie, in principle, there are situations where a written language is closely tied with national and cultural identity, heritage and sense of pride, especially for nations or groups of people who once had other countries' languages forced on them by colonialization.
After the days of the empires it has taken a lot of political and economic effort for many countries to re-establish a national and cultural pride, where language is often a crucial part. Indigenous people, like Indians and Inuits in the Americas and the Aboriginees of Australia, were deprived of their cultural heritage for centuries.
Microsoft is here to make money, and even though Bill Gates spends a few bucks on welfare, for which he gains a lot of publicity, his company would not spend a cent on translation work for minority languages, like Saami, if there were not some kind of political pressure. However, the open source people seem to be doing such a good job for smaller languages, without political pressure on them to do so, that I'm not sure that much would happen if Microsoft suddenly withdrew from business. Which is hardly likely, though.
Sailor
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... your thoughtful post merits a thoughtful reply, but my daughter rang from Newcastle at 2.15.a.m. to say that she couldn't find a taxi, so poor ole' dad had to go an pick up said daughter and her friends - a return trip of well over an hour. Now, at 5.30.a.m., I can't keep my eyes open! I'll try again tomorrow!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Isn't that one of the joys of being a dad?! ;-D
Believe me, that's not even the beginning!
Sailor
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You know as well as I, of course, where and how being a father begins, and the better and the worse of it. Your trip to Newcastle gave me a few associations, reminding me that being a father and a grandfather is something that is there all the time. And when sons and daughters no longer need their dad to come and pick them up and take them home, there will soon be grandchildren to be collected at school or kindergarten, to babysit, to take to the cinema, and so on. Fortunately for me, most of it has been for the better.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I have at last recovered from the stress of my fatherly duties!
After carefully reading my post and your reply, I think that in one sense there may be relatively little between us. I certainly don't advocate the suppression of any language; I simply believe that politics should not intervene. Thus, for example, in areas where Scottish Gaelic is customarily spoken, it should be taught - if you speak a language, it is only right that you should learn to use it as well as you can. I have no argument with other subjects being taught in Gaelic, provided that English is one of those subjects. That is simply because English is the national language, and if children are not taught to speak English with reasonable fluency their options in life are unfairly limited. In the nature of things, I suspect that within two or three centuries at most, Gaelic will die out as a language of daily communication, though not necessarily as a language of literature. That will be the result of social and economic change, independent (I hope!) of any political agenda.
What I do not like is - for example - the politically-motivated resurgence of Welsh. As a result of political interference in the education syllabus, the number of Welsh speakers is increasing rapidly. I cannot see any logical justification for this; the principal result is to increase nationalistic fervour. Let's face it, the English conquered Wales over seven hundred years ago, and had exerted considerable influence in the South for more than two hundred years before that. English immigration was considerable, particularly in the South, and in the South-West there were so many such immigrants that the area was referred to as 'Little England'. By the middle of the last century, Welsh was restricted to the North and West of the country.
Now I am not suggesting that it was right that the English should invade and conquer Wales; I am simply stating that it happened a long time ago. Throughout history, populations have been on the move. A few centuries before the conquest of Wales, the Welsh - or British, because that is what they were - occupied the whole of the British Isles; they were driven back to Wales (and Cornwall and Cumbria) by the invading Anglo-Saxons.
The treatment of Native Americans was, and will remain, an indictment upon the integrity of the US politicians of the time, but - in essence - they were conquered, as innumerable races were conquered before them. The same is true of the Innuit of Canada, the Aborigines of Australia and the Maori of New Zealand. Modern morality opposes the concept of 'conquest', and rightly so - but is it right to unpick the fabric of history and, if so, what are the limits?
My philosophy is that water under the bridge is gone forever; the clock can never be turned back in any real sense. Welsh is a repository for an immense amount of literature relating to the so-called 'Dark Ages', and obviously such literature must be preserved. But the same is true of Ancient Greek and of Latin. In the latter cases, scholars study the language in order to study and interpret the literature. Ultimately, that is what I believe would, without interference, happen to Welsh.
If the human race has a future, one of the primary requirements is that we begin to think of ourselves as creatures with a common cause, not as members of separate and distinct tribes. Nationalism is all to frequently manipulated as a political tool; there is a world of difference between pride in one's history and assertion of one's separateness and, by implication, superiority.
I suppose that, as we are talking about language, I must address the 'special case' of Israel. I don't think we need to consider the political justification for the creation of a Jewish homeland, nor the political issues following the 1967 war. Looking only at the language issue, it is clear that because a new state had been created, and its citizens spoke many different languages, a 'state language' was both essential and inevitable. Hebrew was the logical language, and it met not merely a political but a logistic need. Hebrew is a Semitic language, related to the Arabic group of languages but not to the Indo-European group. JFR has told us in another thread that there is an 'academy' charged with limiting the absorption of English words and constructions into the language. Whether this is in the long-term interests of humanity is a moot question; personally I doubt it, but I do acknowledge that it is a special case.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Jedediah
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Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170
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Cossie, if you don't like the politically motivated resurgence of Welsh, then you'd really love what's going on in New Zealand. There is an equally politically motivated resurgence of the Maori language - funded by the taxpayer and powered by the pollies.
Apart from new immigrants,(eg. scotsmen), everyone in this country speaks English - a rather odd American/English hybrid actually. But as Maori is now an official language of the country, every communication from every government department is written in at least two languages. In parliament, speakers with a perfectly adequate fluency in English are entitled to, and do, stumble through their speeches etc in Maori to a house full of MP's etc, not one of whom does not understand English. Meanwhile, a highly-paid bureaucrat provides a simultaneous English translation.
There's even a move to make learning Maori language,(and culture), compulsory in all schools.
I could go on about this at some length, but i think that's enough. It seems that politicians and bureaucrats are the same the world over.
Cheers
Oops - i just remembered that my signature's in Maori. ;-D
E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... that 'Politically Correct' and 'Profound Crap' share the same initials?
Yes, by all means preserve the culture, and make teaching of the language available to those who are interested - but to force it down anyone's throat is just plain wrong!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Jedediah
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Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170
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Exactly!
E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Hebrew was one of the deader of dead languages prior to 1947. I'm glad it wasn't shoved down my throat. Can you imagine what a person with my learning disabilities would do with that alphabet and right to left to boot!
Regards-
or should I say
sdrageR
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Simon Chaver,
Hebrew was not a dead language until 1947: it had ceased to be a colloquial language, a language that people used in everyday intercourse (get your minds out of the gutter!) It was used extensively in study and worship. All that Eliezer ben-Yehuda had to do was to wipe off the dust and show how the vocabulary and syntax could fulfill the needs of a new world.
I never cease to be amazed at the ease with which newcomers pick up this language - especially the children of of foreign workers who speak it like a native in a matter of weeks, slang and all.
'Many a time and oft' I have been chatting with an English-speaking friend on Yahoo IM when my fimgers mishandle the keyboard and they (the friends) get bombarded with what is, for them, gobbledegook. 
A couple of days ago I mentioned here the 'resurrection' of the Hebrew language in some post or other but no one paid any attention. (I believe that the Welsh have been to Israel to 'see how it is done'. )
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Jedediah wrote:
But as Maori is now an official language of the country ... in parliament, speakers with a perfectly adequate fluency in English are entitled to, and do, stumble through their speeches etc in Maori to a house full of MP's etc, not one of whom does not understand English.
How interesting! In Israel the opposite seems to apply. Arabic is a second official language (as Maori is in NZ) and the members of the Knesset are entitled to address the house in Arabic. None of the Arab members ever do. They address the house and the media in (fluent) Hebrew, even when they are in their most indignantly scathing mode.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings
> Hebrew was not a dead language until 1947: it had ceased to be a colloquial language, a language that people used in everyday intercourse (get your minds out of the gutter!) It was used extensively in study and worship.
Sorry, but that sounds as dead as say, Latin. Everyday intercourse is the requirement. (and with pseudonym like mine, my mind is NEVER in the gutter!)
Regards
Simon Rutlust
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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I am fairly pragmatic about language. To me a language is first and foremost a tool for communication between people, and the fewer languages the better. I am also happy to see that nearly all of my 14 years old kids at school understand English very well, many of them speak English almost fluently, and they write the language well enough to make themselves understood in almost any situation. Which makes them far better equipped to communicate with people all over the world than people of my generation ever were. I call that progress (, even if much of this is thanks to the popularity of stupid American tv shows).
There are indigenous groups whose languages are so inherently tied to their work and culture that to it is impossible to preserve their culture without also preserving their language. In Norway that applies to the Sami population in Lapland areas, where the Sami language is in daily use.
About tribalism and nationalism - I agree with you unreservedly.
Sailor
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but it seems to me that the question at issue is essentially both logical and simple. For so long as Sami-speakers wish to maintain their culture and that culture is capable of being maintained without requiring a significant economic and linguistic interface with another culture, there will be little or no motivation for Sami-speakers to acquire fluency in any other language, and Sami will survive. It is only when economic pressures lead to effective integration into a different culture that a language begins to die.
That's not the same as the situation in Wales, or - as illustrated by Jedediah - in New Zealand. In both cases, everyone speaks English. I'm no expert on New Zealand, but in Wales the Welsh language remained the ordinary language of daily communication between Welsh speakers in the North and West of the country. I have no quarrel with that; I would fiercely oppose any attempt at suppression. It is the expansion with which I disagree - the language is being forced down the throats of the resident English-speaking population for purely nationalistic reasons and, to my mind, that is a retrograde step on the road to civilised unity.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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And if you purchase our DVD series "how to speak Welsh in 10 easy steps", we will also include at no extra charge "How to speak Hot N' Tot in 5 easy steps". But wait! As good a deal as that is, we will also include a bottle of Johnny Walker Red to dull your mind while your learning and wait, wait!!! We will also include a Litre of Jack Daniels to clean your pipes with. Dont miss this excitting offer, yours today for only 19.99 US dollars or Euros.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... how to avoid speaking Welsh at all costs, even if your name is Llewellyn ap Gruffyd - I might well be interested! Wait a minute though, that would need to be Johnnie Walker Black Label! I don't want to speak Hottentot 'cos I'm supercool - but I do admit that Jack Daniels does a damned good job on my drains. Can't you put together a rather more tempting offer? After all, I was very impressed by your previous service!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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It just so happens that I am authorized to offer you this special deal. the Welsh DVD plus 10,000 vulgar phrases in Cherokee to use to amaze your friends and enimies, plus 2 bottles of Johnny Walker in the black lable, and a case of Jack Daniels in the black, plus not to be outdone by our compitition, we are offering at no extra charge, our exclusive DVD on how to avoid the French at all cost. All this for an astonding 24.95 US dollars or Euros.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Anything that keeps their garlic breath away from me is welcome - though I admit they do make the world's best French Frites!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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