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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd ed)
Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd ed)  [message #31452] Thu, 27 April 2006 04:45 Go to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

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I was doing some research for a class and happened to come across this particular books ideas regarding theories for homosexuality. I know this topic has been discussed a great deal here, but some of the information was new to me so I figured why not see if it was new to someone else.

(under sexuality)
Researchers have found
evidence of both biological and environmental origins of homosexuality. While no significant differences have been found in the levels of hormones that circulate in the blood of homosexuals and heterosexuals, exposure
to high levels of certain reproductive hormones during fetal development has been linked to homosexuality. In addition, anatomical differences have been
found between the hypothalamus of heterosexual and homosexual men, and studies of twins have found distinct evidence of a hereditary component to homosexuality. Environmental influences include early family relationships
and the modeling of behaviors observed in the parent of the opposite sex, as well as social learning throughout the life span

(under homosexuality)
Through history, various theories have been proposed regarding the source and development of sexual orientation. Many scientists believe that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological, and social factors. In most cases, sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Many reports have been recorded by people recounting efforts to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual with no success. For these reasons, psychologists believe that sexual orientation is not a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. In addition, scientific research over 30 years confirms that
homosexual orientation is not associated with emotional or social problems. Based on research conducted in the 1960s, psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals concluded that homosexuality is not
an illness, mental disorder, or emotional problem.


Oh, also in 1990 the American Psychological Association stated thatcientific evidence does not support conversion therapy; in fact, the evidence reveals that it can actually be psychologically damaging to attempt conversion. (taken as a direct quote from the text)


And now I shall again fall off the face of the earth for atleast another week.

David



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31455 is a reply to message #31452] Thu, 27 April 2006 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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I would agree that in most cases it is probably impossible to change from gay to str8t any more than you can accomplish the reverse. I don't think we have proof one way or another as to anything genetic and I myself go very strongly with socialogical influences while growing up.

I can only go by my own self and that is hardly evidence of anything at all.

I know it is thought to be a mental disorder by most who frequent here but I do believe in God and I do not think he made me this way. If He did that and made it clear to me that he did it, then I would not be able to believe in Him anymore. I tend to think of being gay as not normal and being some kind of disorder where I have a malfunction in my programming. I will not be able to propagate the species of course and not much use to human kind on that reason.

I do believe that being gay is much like the way I became afraid of heights. It was not logical to become afraid and I know the exact moment it happened and it goes against all reason in my mind for me to be afraid of heights. I almost fell where I could have been hurt severely or killed and I knew it. I had caught myself and been saved but no matter how rationally I approached this afterwards, I had become afraid of heights and could not reverse it. I firmly believe that somewhere a set of things happened, none of which would be a problem by themselves, but in total made me like boys more than girls or at least be afraid to like girls. In any case, I left adolesence as a boy who liked boys and avoided girls.

Of course since I think I can see why I am the way I am, I dont have to hate God. Makes sense to me and explains a lot of hate for God and religion I see around me. The Christ I read about would seem to me have utter disgust for the extreme religious right.



Ken
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31456 is a reply to message #31455] Thu, 27 April 2006 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

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electroken wrote:

I know it is thought to be a mental disorder by most who frequent here but I do believe in God

Hi, Ken. I really think you have misunderstood. No one here thinks that someone who believes in God is suffering from some mental deficiency. (I certainly don't think that I suffer from some mental deficiency!) I think that they would say that such a belief is not rational, or something like that. That's fair enough. But then love is not rational either.

and I do not think he made me this way. If He did that and made it clear to me that he did it, then I would not be able to believe in Him anymore.

This would bolster up the claim that your belief was not rational. I think that you meant to say that you would not be able to love God any more.

I tend to think of being gay as not normal and being some kind of disorder where I have a malfunction in my programming. I will not be able to propagate the species of course and not much use to human kind on that reason.

OK, here you and I have a serious difference of opinion. In my opinion there is nothing abnormal or 'not normal' in homosexuality. It is a variance in human sexuality: the majority of human beings are heterosexual (which is good news for the future of the species), but a minority (whose size has yet to be accurately determined) are homosexual.

I do believe that being gay is much like the way I became afraid of heights... I firmly believe that somewhere a set of things happened, none of which would be a problem by themselves, but in total made me like boys...

Ken, can't you see the difference? You know exactly when and where you acquired your (irrational?) fear of heights; but you have no idea when, where or how you 'became' homosexual. So how do you know that? You can't, because you have no facts to go on. Your attitude towards your homosexuality is the same as your attitude to God: both are the result of belief, not knowledge. (Before you start getting all hot under the collar, Ken, please note that I am religious person: I am not against you and I am not attacking you.)

Perhaps what I am trying to say is that you are homosexual because you are homosexual: there is nothing wrong with that and there is nothing unnatural about that. Why must you look for reasons for your homosexuality? Do you know of any str8 person who seeks reasons for their heterosexuality, who claims to know the precise moment when they became heterosexual?

The Christ I read about would seem to me have utter disgust for the extreme religious right.

You see, you are quite capable of standing up for your religious opinion without having to justify it. You just state it as a sure belief: you are right and they are wrong. You should try to see your homosexuality in a similar light: you are what you are, and if someone else has a problem with that maybe they need to work on that problem, not you.

Hugs.



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Ken  [message #31459 is a reply to message #31455] Thu, 27 April 2006 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Ken,

I've read JFR's post, and I agree with everything he says.

>I know it is thought to be a mental disorder by most who frequent here but I do believe in God

A mental disorder? Believe me, I know what a mental disorder is and I also know that belief in God is not one. A mental disorder is something that seriously interferes with "normal" functioning, and it is perfectly normal to have a belief in a deity (whether rational or not). Another gross generalisation -- I thought we were going to try and avoid these.

>I do not think he made me this way. If He did that and made it clear to me that he did it, then I would not be able to believe in Him anymore.

I don't follow the line of reasoning here. You either believe in him or you do not -- and if he made it clear that he made you gay, then it would be pretty clear proof that he existed, I would have thought. Though I accept JFR's comment that perhaps you meant you would not be able to love him.

There are lots of gay Christians, by the way, who see no conflict of that sort. I'm still not sure why you have to manufacture one.

>I tend to think of being gay as not normal and being some kind of disorder where I have a malfunction in my programming.

Despite science? Despite nature?

I am sorry, but I DO NOT SEE (and I apologise for shouting, but I won't retract it) any difference between

1. "a malfunction in [your] programming"
2. God making you that way

After all, you did not have any control over your programming, did you? God was the programmer, not you.

>I will not be able to propagate the species of course and not much use to human kind on that reason.

Perhaps. Though I don't see homosexuality as a barrier to propagation.

>I do believe that being gay is much like the way I became afraid of heights. It was not logical to become afraid and I know the exact moment it happened and it goes against all reason in my mind for me to be afraid of heights. I almost fell where I could have been hurt severely or killed and I knew it. I had caught myself and been saved but no matter how rationally I approached this afterwards, I had become afraid of heights and could not reverse it.

The problem, Ken, is that you are not taking this from a strictly rational point of view. Your argument falls down because disorders such as acrophobia are usually curable. Just because you have convinced yourself they cannot does not make it true.

This means, immediately, that there is a big difference between a sexual orientation (which is generally accepted as unchangeable) and a phobia. They involve a completely different thought process -- in one case, it is a natural thing that happens to almost everyone -- to fall in love, find a partner, etc. -- and one thing is an unfortunate incident that your mind blew up out of proportion in restrospect. (I've had a phobia, by the way. One that hospitalised me, in fact. It is nothing like being homosexual. If it is, then I might as well kill myself now, because I'm not going to live through that again.)

You say yourself -- as JFR points out -- that you cannot remember the point at which you "became" gay. Perhaps that is because it was a natural progression to become gay -- as it seems to have been for everyone else?

To be quite frank, I think you are ignoring the evidence to pursue your dogma.

>The Christ I read about would seem to me have utter disgust for the extreme religious right

How do you know? This is precisely one of the problems with religion -- that people start dictating how God would behave in a certain situation, rather than only relying directly on what he said. Certainly, he disliked hypocrites, but beyond that there are no strong arguments to say that he would favour the religious right, the religious left, or anything in between. That is why they all continue to exist.

David
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31462 is a reply to message #31455] Thu, 27 April 2006 11:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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As so often, JFR and Deeej both make some good points.

Personally, I tend to think that there are probably multiple reasons for being gay or bisexual - for some people it may be almost all genetic; for some it may be almost all the environment in the uterus and pre-natal exposure to slightly unusual hormone balances; for some it may be experiences in the first few months of life. For many, it may be an interaction of some or all of these! Ultimately, it doesn't really matter much why - a bit like gravity: if you have that kind of a mind it is quite interesting to look into theories of the curvature of space-time, but what actually matters day-to-day is knowing that if you hold something up and let go of it, it will fall down.

I won't deny that there may be a few people who are gay because they have a phobia about liking women ... in much the same way as there are undoubtedly some people who are lefthanded because their right arms are paralysed or absent. But I think it is a *tiny* minority of "gay" men who are "gay" for this reason.

Personally, I like women. Two of my closest half-dozen friends are women (one, who I've known for over 40 years, I have had sex with, the other I haven't). But I've had no doubt, since the age of five, that my sexual orientation is 99% towards men - that's why I describe myself as "gay". I'm happy with it, and don't find that it conflicts with my (broadly Christian) religious position.

And I take issue with the view that "I will not be able to propagate the species of course and not much use to human kind on that reason". Social animals work in complex ways to ensure survival of the society and the species - think of the sterile workers in a colony of ants or bees, for example: they are essential to the survival of their kind. There may be plenty of good and positive things about being gay that contribute to human-kind: certainly enough to make it sufficiently pro-survival of society and species that any genetic cause/predisposition continues to exist (as a balanced polymorphism, for those who want to get technical).

Without getting too involved in religious debate, I do believe that we need to love, respect, care for, cherish *ourselves* in order to be able to love, respect, cherish, care for *other people*, and that it's important to pay attention to both halves of "love thy neighbour as thyself".



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31467 is a reply to message #31456] Thu, 27 April 2006 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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Hey David I really dont want to hurt feelings of anyone and I think you are a nice guy; some of the things are say are a bit like the guy in that movie who shouts out the window venting his anger or hurt. I do get defensive a bit and I know that so I hope you guys can see past that and I think you do that and I thank you.

I pretty much agree with what comments you made about my post except for one thing. I have had a long long time to try to understand "why" I am gay and I have a pretty good idea for the reasons. I can remember kissing this girl once when I was about 12 or 13 and I did like it; I think at that time in my development I was having normal thoughts about girls. I was, however, the sort of boy who could be easily teased as I took so much to heart. I would be just crushed by comments made to me about how I acted or did things when such comments were not meant to be hurtful or maybe even in a teasing manner. I would simply over react to things. I look back and can see that I had this overwhelming desire to fit into the group and took even slight comments as to my masculinity as being very profound and harsh. I dont think I was ever called gay by anyone. I did develop this thick sheild around me to ignore any kind of teasing. I was very small for my age and always played with kids about 2 years younger than me so I would be able to compete physically with them. I was not the worst player at baseball, but nearly so. I avoided all the things that could expose me as being physically inferior and hid in my own world.

I think I actually am what is termed arrested development as I do not become attracted to guys who are older looking or much beyond their teens. The more masculine a guy looks, the less attractive to me and the more feminine a girl looks, she is less attractive to me. I do find I am attracted in a small way to girls who have a sort of masculine look to them. It is though I had stopped progressing sexually in mid teens. I can see a lot of reasons which pushed me towards being gay.

A side note here. When I had my first openly gay encounter in the Navy with one of the younger guys (I was 26 at the time) I was fine with things until it got to the point he was going to give me a bj and then I was totally turned off by it. I was really confused by this as I always assumed it was what I wanted to have. So I found that I wanted to give gay sex to someone else but not have it in reverse to me. I told you I was a f.....d up!

I believe in my heart that I could have gone on to having a relationship with a girl but I dug such a deep hole for myself, I couldnt figure out a way to do it any more. Having been kicked out of the Navy for gay conduct was something I would have to explain to any girl I would attempt to date and I didnt think I could do that.

Well I just wanted to give some insight to my past to let you know it is just a bit more complicated than some. I have not been happy being gay and dont ever envision having a gay partner either and never did for that matter. If I had been able to come to one of these sites when I was 26 or 27 my life might have turned out much different than it did.

Sorry to ramble about like this. I will close with saying that my belief in God kept me from suicide but I also thought for years that God kept me alive as punishment for what I did. I still struggle with the idea that I can be forgiven for my past and it is fairly sordid, believe me.



Ken
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31468 is a reply to message #31462] Thu, 27 April 2006 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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NW I want to comment a little on what you said. I know that many guys seem to know they are gay from almost as long as they can remember and I wont argue that they are wrong or delusional or some crap like that as I think it is probably quite likely.

I hope I dont give that impression my mind is closed to some kind of genetic thing. It could well be the case, and really it doesnt mean that God made me/us that way. He created the first of us but I dont think he creates all that follows as that would be a bit much to think that God has a hand in each person being born. I think God set it in motion, but man has free will and that affects things in a lot of ways from emotional things to environmental things such as new chemicals in the air etc. All those things have consequences which we can only begin to guess at, and in some cases we havent even thought to make the guess.

I guess the part about feeling useless is just one of my depressive type thoughts and thanks for telling me otherwise.

It has helped me tremendously to talk with others about my sexuality and my past, but it has only been in the last 5 years. In the previous 61 years of my life it had never occured so I have a lot of things to unravel.

I do agree with you in part when you state it hardly matters how you come to the conclusion; for instance the law of gravity works the same way whether or not you know "how" it does it.

Oh yes and Hugs to all of you really. I have to say I might have confused the two Davids in my first response, but believe me when I say I dont hold any annymosity for either of you.

I would use a spell checker on these posts of mine if I could figure out how to do so. I continually find myself experiencing "typelexia" when I spell that as taht, etc. That, and I tend to avoid all the psy words as I dont want to appear stupid as I dont know how to spell most of them.



Ken
Hugs to electroken  [message #31471 is a reply to message #31468] Thu, 27 April 2006 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Ken

a few random thoughts on your last couple of posts:

firstly - big hugs! Like so many of us, you clearly haven't had an easy life, and are still trying to make sense of it all ... hopefully this board is (among other things) somewhere where we can all help each other to do that.

Secondly - being different is no reason to feel useless or f*cked up. So what if you don't like getting blowjobs? I don't like getting them either, actually: for me it's important to see the face and expression of my partner (my selfconfidence in bed is not too high, and I don't trust myself to read body language well enough to know if my partner is enjoying himself unless I can see his face). So what if you don't biologically father kids? If you touch the lives of those around you (whether in realworld or cyber) in a positive way, you contribute to the human species in my view!

thirdly - don't worry about spelling and stuff! Some of us do tend to go back and correct what we've written (even reaching for the dictionary if we need to!), some of us don't. Just because I personally tend towards the more obssessive end of the spectrum doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the ideas of those whose style is a lot more stream of consciousness: indeed, it is one of the areas in which I can legitimately claim to enjoy diversity.

So just try to work out who you are, and be it to the best of your ability ... leave worrying about "should" and "ought" aside!

More hugs.

NW



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd ed)  [message #31473 is a reply to message #31452] Thu, 27 April 2006 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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Good Grief Charlie Brown,

Long story – short version:

I am 65, never contemplated the word gay until I was 23, had a great home life with loving parents, (only child) always had an attraction to boys, and sucked at sports plus no interest. Had a girl friend at 20 for about a year. Liked her tits sucked (lol). Outside of you show me yours and I will show you mine, no contact sex until I was in the Navy. I am as straight looking and acting as they come, as they say I am in the closet. I met a guy in the Navy and fell in love. He got out before me. I cried. Through him I met a girl and two years later married her. (Still married 40 years later) I now have 3 children and eight grand children. Over the past 40 years I have had lovers all between the ages of 18 and 30. I have several very good friends who I have known for years they are straight not even bent, but they have never married. So shouldn’t bachelors take some of the heat off us gays? They aren’t procreating either. Ask me anything you like.

Gary
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homosexuality and mental disorder  [message #31476 is a reply to message #31467] Thu, 27 April 2006 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I just want to be clear. The American Psychological Association has removed, I think in 1995, homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. It took it a while, but it did it. Thus I am perturbed, unless you left the word "not" out, that you appear to think that people think of it as a disorder.

Note that I am not stopping you, should you do so, from viewing it as a mental disorder. I also want it noted that I do not think it is one. And we each have a perfect right to our views. I am not going to seek to dissuade you from yours (if they are as expressed in your original post)

I understand the reasons you feel you are gay. The issue is that we can rationalise our lives perfectly well one way or the other. I grew up a model heterosexual, and found I was gay at 13. It was a shock, and an unpleasant one. I also feel my own development was arrested. But I do not label them cause and effect.

Looking over my life I have alwasy "been gay" (rationalisation), but society expected me not to be. Thus I am "not gay" in any manner that is recognisable to others, just to me, and just in my head.

My deity, who must be your deity too, surely, does not make errors. I view myself as havng been born gay for some purpose. Maybe this board is that purpose, who can say? But, if created by a deity, I am as I was created, and am wired up the way I am for a reason.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31477 is a reply to message #31455] Thu, 27 April 2006 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

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I have absolutely no problem with how other people feel about themselves. I sure know Im not gay by choice (who in their right mind would want to be gay with attitudes like they are). Altho I have the relatives from hell, and my mom has more boy friends than WalMart has stores, I dont feel like anything they did made me gay. I am growing up dislikeing males and femails in my family, but I still want to be with a male. If I have any kind of Mental disorder its because of the way society treats me. As far as having children. there is always adoption. There are thousands of unwanted and unloved children in this world.

I still think its genetic and beyond our ability to change it. Environment might have something to do with it, but for the life of me I cant imagine what it could be. I knew i was gay when I was 12. Looking back I have always enjoyed the company of males. Oh, as screwed up as my family is, no-one has ever laid a hand on me in that way, plus that would make me sick. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: homosexuality and mental disorder  [message #31480 is a reply to message #31476] Thu, 27 April 2006 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

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I think the APA might have removed it in 1973.



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: homosexuality and mental disorder  [message #31481 is a reply to message #31480] Thu, 27 April 2006 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Modern_Developments says "You are right" Smile



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
A couple of points  [message #31483 is a reply to message #31468] Thu, 27 April 2006 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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>that would be a bit much to think that God has a hand in each person being born.

If he has no personal interest in our wellbeing, why should we assume that it is not possible that one or two people "slipped through the net"? Why should we always assume he has our best interests at heart?

I still don't understand why God allowing someone -- through no fault of their own -- to become gay is not the same as making them gay in the first place. The intentions are the same. The result is the same.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

>man has free will

Okay, man has free will. Yet you've just said that your homosexuality just happened -- you in no way chose it. That doesn't sound like free will, in the context of homosexuality, to me.

David
Normality  [message #31488 is a reply to message #31467] Thu, 27 April 2006 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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>I can remember kissing this girl once when I was about 12 or 13 and I did like it; I think at that time in my development I was having normal thoughts about girls. I was, however, the sort of boy who could be easily teased as I took so much to heart. I would be just crushed by comments made to me about how I acted or did things when such comments were not meant to be hurtful or maybe even in a teasing manner. I would simply over react to things. I look back and can see that I had this overwhelming desire to fit into the group and took even slight comments as to my masculinity as being very profound and harsh. I dont think I was ever called gay by anyone. I did develop this thick sheild around me to ignore any kind of teasing. I was very small for my age and always played with kids about 2 years younger than me so I would be able to compete physically with them. I was not the worst player at baseball, but nearly so. I avoided all the things that could expose me as being physically inferior and hid in my own world.

All things that would be considered completely normal in a "straight" child.

And a gay one, too, for that matter. But there is nothing there that screams out to me "Damaging behaviour! Blatantly it will fuck him up for the rest of his life!".

I wonder if you have constructed your elaborate self-justification and religious opinions to justify why you are not completely normal in all other respects? Because you don't actually want to be? Because you want to punish yourself, or you want to see yourself as broken?

>I think I actually am what is termed arrested development as I do not become attracted to guys who are older looking or much beyond their teens.

So what? There's nothing the matter with that. No-one cares what you find attractive (aside from a few very ignorant people): the only requirement is that you remain legal. Even what is legal varies from country to country. Over here the age of consent is 16.

As for societal taboos against homosexuality and all manner of sexual attractions, most are totally stupid and fueled by nothing more than hysteria.

>It is though I had stopped progressing sexually in mid teens.

Whether or not that is true (and I'm inclined to think it doesn't matter), there are lots of people in that position. People who like young-looking guys. You're hardly the only one.

>Well I just wanted to give some insight to my past to let you know it is just a bit more complicated than some.

It's no more complicated than mine. And I'm only 21!

David (Deeej)
Re: homosexuality and mental disorder  [message #31489 is a reply to message #31476] Thu, 27 April 2006 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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I dont think my belief in a God who had created the first man and women to be "perfect" has much to do with what my mother and father created when they had sex with each other. I think God was the creator of the first humans but not necessarily me directly and the whole human span could have produced some changes from the first model. I dont think God created me directly, only indirectly by virtue of the fact he started things going. The only place most of those who believe in evolution and I differ is how it started in the first place and not that there are changes in the human model.



Ken
Re: A couple of points  [message #31490 is a reply to message #31483] Thu, 27 April 2006 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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I dont control the free will of others and thru what they do and say etc they can impact my life. What we do with our free will is not going to have consequences ONLY for us, but for those around us also. In that way I think that what others did around me tended to mold me into what I became and I dont think that is an unreasonable assertion to make.



Ken
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31492 is a reply to message #31477] Thu, 27 April 2006 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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Oh believe me Brian I surely never chose what I am either. Just because I cant fix the exact date time and event or series of events that made me what I am does not mean they did not happen. Many of you seem to insist I prove something from the negative which is not reasonable.

I have never met anyone who would choose to be gay and there can be a number of causes for the condition, but I just dont feel God made that happen. In fact I dont believe in any kind of predestination and so I dont feel God knew I was going to be born at such and such a time etc.

Many times we tend to push someone into one mold because we see they dont fit in another one, but they may not fit that next mold either.

I understand clearly what you say here and I do tend to agree with a lot of it as I say above.



Ken
Re: A couple of points  [message #31494 is a reply to message #31490] Thu, 27 April 2006 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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You seem to have misinterpreted my previous comment. When I quote a piece of text, I am not specifically finding fault with it; I may be using it to relate to something else you said in that post.

There is nothing unreasonable about asserting that man has free will, in itself -- note that I said "Okay, man has free will." (even though I personally think it is overly facile to say that we have genuine free will).

However, it sounded to me like you are saying that free will leads, through the consequences of our actions, to homosexuality. In other words, you are saying that it is our fault that we are gay (if we are), and not God's or Nature's. I strongly disagree with that.

David
On a point of order, if it please your honour ...  [message #31496 is a reply to message #31477] Thu, 27 April 2006 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

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... homosexuality can only be genetic if it is a direct consequence of your genetic inheritance from your parents. It follows that the matter would be determined at the moment of conception. There's a fair amount of evidence (especially from studies of twins raised separately) that genetic inheritance does have a part to play, but there's a great deal still to be discovered.

In the quote from the Gale Encyclopedia, a distinction is made between 'biological' and 'environmental' factors. This is a little misleading, because in most literature both of these are grouped together as 'environmental'. Environmental factors are normally taken to comprise any influences which are not genetic, so anything happening after conception is regarded as environmental.

Until twenty or thirty years ago, there was a widespread view that having a dominant female parent was a significant factor in male homosexuality. The fact that the increasing number of single-parent families in which a female is the ONLY parent is not apparently accompanied by a corresponding increase in the incidence of male homosexuality cast serious doubts on that theory, and nowadays 'environmental influences' is usually taken to mean influences during pregnancy and in the very early years of life. Such influences are likely to biochemical, and could therefore be just as powerful and irreversible as genetic factors.

Thank you for your indulgence, your honour!



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31497 is a reply to message #31492] Fri, 28 April 2006 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

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Like I said, I have no problem with whatever. I know this, something had to occure to make me gay, but I have never been molested, beaten (well I have been switched). Nothing brutal or nasty happened. I just dont think my mom touching my cock while she changed my diaper did it. Homosexuals have been very common thru human history. The Greeks really got into it big time. The Romans wernt slouches either. They accepted it as a normal occurance. In Japan it is perfectly ok to be gay. The only really homophobic society is right here in the U.S.A. and were trying ot force this down the throats of other countries. No wonder people in Europe hate us.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31499 is a reply to message #31492] Fri, 28 April 2006 00:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

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I have an idea on predestination that you might like. Making the assumption that of course there is a God who is all-knowing and is above the concept of time, I can then surmise that God does know what our actions will be and knows basically everything. Does this mean we don't have a choice in the matter ? No, but God does know what our choices will be. That is to say that yeah, we live our life having free-will and we make choices and whatnot but since those are in fact the choices we make, then God knows them. So I guess what I'm saying is an argument for predestination, but still includes our responsibility in the matter. So we are not at the will of our predestined path, but since that is the path we take, then God knows it. I had a better explanation of this at some point in time when one of my friends who was a theology major mentioned the subject. I beleive he called it the problem with freewill. I'm also not saying that I necessarily am arguing a point, I just thought that you might like my explanation. So take it or leave it.



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31500 is a reply to message #31492] Fri, 28 April 2006 00:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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electroken wrote:
(snip)
> I have never met anyone who would choose to be gay
(snip)

I seem to be the exception to that: apart from a period of around a year just after puberty when I worried that I didn't seem to be growing out of what I had hitherto assumed (or pretended to myself) was an "adolescent phase", I have never wanted my sexual orientation to be anything other than what it is - ie around 95% gay.

I wouldn't be *me* if I were otherwise: being gay has fundamentally shaped the way I see the world, my politics, my friendships, my career ... my life. In exactly the same way as being a male has: it's something so deep-seated, and so very much part of me, that I don't even consider it most of the time.

If you held out your hands to me and said "in my left hand is a pill to make you straight, and in the right hand is a pill to keep you gay", I'd go the gay route every time ... and that has been true since before I left my teens.

Sure, I've had my moments of saying "all men are bastards" and crying myself to sleep with a broken heart - but I did the same when the one serious relationship I've had with a woman ended: it's just the way I am, not related to my sexuality. Sure, I've been queerbashed (twice, badly enough to need medical attention) ... but I was physically abused as a kid a lot more frequently than that by my father - for no reason at all. Sure, a lot of people have made fun of me - occasionally for being gay, but more often because I take life far to seriously, am far too must of a booklover / intellectual for them to feel comfortable with, and have a total loathing of all forms of competitive sports. I guess that what I'm saying is that most of the bad things in my life have not come from being "out" or from being "gay", but have just come from being "me". And if I balance that against the positive things that have come from being gay, and the two long-term same-sex relationships that I have been privileged to enjoy ... the experience of emotional and physical love - well, if offered the choice to go back and not be gay, or do the same things over again, being gay wins every time.

I know that I've been lucky compared to some, but I honestly don't think it's that unusual ...

NW



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Hi, Ken!  [message #31505 is a reply to message #31492] Fri, 28 April 2006 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

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This is actually a response to all of your posts on this thread, not just the post above.

I'm not sure whether I have mentioned since you began posting regularly that I used to be strongly influenced by religion; my views have changed over the years, much influenced by the encouragement of my early mentors to feel free to question anything and everything and to find my own path. I'm not, therefore, predisposed to deny anything; I just try to have an open mind. When I disagree with you, it's more likely to be on a point of logic than on a matter of belief.

Gotta start with belief, though! I think that in both the Judaic and Christian traditions, it is a basic principle that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He is everywhere, and though he grants humanity free will, he knows in advance how that liberty will be used or abused. I therefore find it strange that you think that He is not responsible for creating you as you are. I take your point about the analogy with evolution, but it seems to me to be an axiom of belief that if God permits man to evolve genetically it must be because He wishes humanity to change and He knows in advance what that change will entail. In short, I can't reconcile your adhesion to the literal truth of the Bible with your apparent stance on the limits of Divine influence.

Turning to the religious issues surrounding homosexuality, they stem from relatively few biblical references, many of which have an element of ambiguity. The primary condemnations are in Leviticus and in the letters of St. Paul. Now if you believe that God dictated the Bible word for word, I can't argue with you. If however you accept that it was the work of men inspired by God, there are some interesting points to be made. Firstly, whilst there is no consensus as to the date at which the Torah (which includes Leviticus) was written, it is generally agreed that it was written no earlier than the exodus from Egypt and no later than the time of King Josiah. There are many scriptural references, contemporary with Leviticus and subsequently, to the need for the Jews to protect their ethnic identity. The Canaanites, and indeed most of the Greek-inspired world, regarded bisexuality as normal and indeed commendable. What could be more natural than to condemn such practices, which were alien to the Jews? It's interesting to note that there is not a single biblical reference which unequivocably condemns homosexuality rather than bisexuality. Paul, of course, was influenced by Leviticus, but he was also a child of his times, and though bisexuality was still practised in the Roman-dominated world, it no longer met with widespread approval, as it had under the Greeks.

There are, indeed, so many 'ifs' and 'buts' that the religious condemnation of homosexuality can only be seen as a matter of belief rather than an issue of Holy Writ.

So, Ken, why do you torture yourself?



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: Excerpts from the Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology (2nd e  [message #31531 is a reply to message #31500] Fri, 28 April 2006 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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Well you know if I had my life to live over I would try to be open I think and just let others know how I felt about boys. I dont know what would have happened to me other than what did, but I sure see what you are saying about how it affected you. It appears maybe that it might not have been as bad as I had imagined it was going to be if I had been forthright with how I was at the time. Yeah I want to think about what you said a bit more and it is something I think may be true for me too. Thanks for the commments.



Ken
I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster  [message #31535 is a reply to message #31492] Fri, 28 April 2006 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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>Many of you seem to insist I prove something from the negative which is not reasonable.

Well, the problem is that proving something from the positive ("it's this way; I think the reason is this; prove me wrong") is totally unscientific and completely useless to anyone except yourself. Which is fine -- you believe what you want to believe -- but don't expect anyone else to be swayed by the force of the argument.

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and have been touched by his Noodly Appendage; that everything was created by Him in a creationistic way; if you can't prove me wrong he must exist.

See? Ridiculous.

>In fact I dont believe in any kind of predestination and so I dont feel God knew I was going to be born at such and such a time etc.

I thought the Christian God was omnipotent and omniscient?

It seems to me that you pick and choose Christian doctrine, yet instead of choosing the parts most relevant to your lifestyle, you choose the ones that make you feel unwanted and "broken". It seems self-destructive to me.

I'm sure you'll have read Cossie's post "Hi, Ken!", but I would seriously recommend you read it again, as well, as he is far more eloquent than I will ever be.

David
Excerpts from: Child and Adolescent Psychiatry - A Comprehen  [message #31566 is a reply to message #31452] Sat, 29 April 2006 04:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

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Excerpts regarding sexual orientation in the text, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry - A Comprehensive Textbook (3rd Edition) edited by Melvin Lewis

Again, I found some of this information interesting and thought I would pass it on to others. Interesting statistics.

SEXUAL ORIENTATION
Sexual orientation refers to a person's overall sexual responsiveness to men or women ( Meyer-Bahlberg, 1993). Sexual orientation has four components: (a) imagery (e.g., daydreams, masturbation fantasies); (b) use of erotica, such as magazines; (c) erotic attraction; and (d) actual partner experience. Homosexuality is not a disorder of gender identity. Homosexuality is an orientation that, once adopted, commonly is constant throughout life. Approximately 4% of men and 1% to 2% of women are homosexual (Bell et al., 1981). A smaller percentage describes themselves as bisexuals. Other cultures reveal a similar percentage of homosexuals. There are societies where men are at first exclusively homosexual and then convert to become primarily heterosexual ( Herdt, 1981). Gay (homosexual) men may or
may not be effeminate. As a group, they differ from the rest of the population only in being better educated and somewhat less devoutly religious ( Bell et al., 1981 ).

Adult gay men describe themselves as having felt “different” since early childhood. Homosexual youth usually experience homoerotic fantasies in early adolescence, and this can precipitate identity conflict ( Cass, 1984; Yates, 1983). Heterosexual fantasies also are experienced, and this generates bewilderment ( Bell et al., 1981). During early adolescence, most engage in activities such as manual stimulation with the same and with the other sex. Girls become sexually active at an older age than boys and are more likely to engage in concurrent or sequential heterosexual intercourse ( Rosario et al., 1996). Vacillation, confusion, and emotional upset often persist until a clear homosexual identity is established in early adult life. Gay youth account for almost a third of all adolescent suicides ( Remafedi, 1987).

Bisexual men tend to be more conflicted, alienated, and depressed than gay men. This could be related to greater biological discordance or to greater difficulty in defining an identity in a society that specifies people as only male or only female. Conversely, those individuals who are conflicted may be less able to define themselves as male or female (Lock and Steiner, 1999; Yates, 2000).

Lesbian women report feeling less feminine and less beautiful during childhood. They also report having imagined that they were male, preferring to play boys' games, and being called a tomboy. However, many women who are not lesbian also recall these experiences ( Bell et al., 1981; Whitam and Zent, 1984). Compared with gay men, lesbian women are more flexible and less conflicted about adopting a homosexual role and identity. Lesbian adolescents are less likely to be rejected by peers and they have more social support available. It is not uncommon for girls to experiment with female peers nd for women who were heterosexual during marriage to enter a homosexual relationship after divorce. More women than men claim to be bisexual.

Cross-cultural studies support the importance of biological forces in the genesis of homosexuality. Behavioral prodromata of male homosexuality (e.g., interest in girls' toys, cross-dressing) exist in other cultures studied regardless of how the culture views homosexuality. These prodromata first occur at approximately the same age and are remarkably persistent thereafter (Green, 1978; Pillard and Bailey, 1995). Primates and domestic animals often engage in same-sex sexual activity (Adler, 1997). Homosexual relationships sometimes help the animal survive. In some species, females that engage in sexual activity together are more willing to share food, to forage together, and to groom each other.

Prenatal exposure to increases in estrogenic or androgenic hormones can exert a life-long influence on attitudes, thoughts, and behaviors ( Money, 1975). Women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia not treated before 8 years of age present a feminine gender identity in consonance with the sex of assignment but a masculine pattern of arousal in that they quickly respond to visual and narrative erotic stimuli, experiencing a strong sexual appetite that is localized in the genitals and that leads to masturbation or the pursuit of intercourse with a casual partner ( Ehrhardt et al., 1968; Money, 1965). Forty-eight percent have homosexual dreams or fantasies, and 18% have had homosexual experiences. Women who were treated earlier in childhood demonstrate an increased likelihood of becoming bisexual
(Money and Schwartz, 1977).

There is strong evidence for a genetic component to homosexuality. The concordance for homosexuality is 52% among monozygotic twins, compared with 22% among dizygotic twins (Bailey and Pillard, 1991). Monozygotic female twins demonstrate a 48% concordance, whereas dizygotic twins demonstrate only a 16% concordance for homosexuality (Bailey et al., 1993). A family pedigree study by Hamer et al. (1993) demonstrated that nonsibling increases in homosexual orientation occur mainly in male relatives on the mother's side of the family. This suggests transmission through the sex chromosome. Indeed, researchers have correlated homosexuality with the inheritance of five polymorphous markers at the tip of the long arm of the X chromosome, in the Xq28 region ( Hamer et al., 1993; Turner, 1995). However, more than one gene is likely to be involved because a significant number of monozygotic twins are discordant for homosexuality ( Bancroft, 1994; Meyer-Bahlburg, 1993). The genetic basis for homosexuality is an important reason why children adopted by gay couples are no more likely than the rest of the
population to become gay.

Genes could influence sexuality by changing the organization and structure of the brain or by affecting the production of hormones and transmitters. Minute changes in hormone balance could alter structure and subtly recast attitudes, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. For instance, testosterone increases and ovarian hormones decrease the development of the corpus callosum, which is larger in men than in women ( Fitch and Denenberg, 1998). This could differentially affect information processing, emotional ambivalence, and anxiety (Leavengood and Weekes, 2000 ). Two interrelated, sexually dimorphic nuclei, the stria terminalis and the medial amygdaloid nucleus, are larger and have denser projections in men. This system influences sexually dimorphic behaviors such as aggression as well as nonsexually dimorphic functions such as social recognition memory ( de Vries and Miller, 1998). The recently discovered human vomeronasal system responds in sex-specific fashion to smell by changing behaviors, adjusting the autonomic nervous system response, and even instigating the release of gonadotropins from the pituitary gland (Monti-Bloch et al., 1998). Clearly, brain dimorphism is enormously complex and has far-reaching effects on cognition, emotion, and behavior.

A boy with a female-configured brain would possess a strong innate bias toward homosexuality. Whether that person would become gay would depend on the strength of the bias (degree of femaleness in the brain), the boy's internal discomfort with becoming a homosexual, and his experience with homophobia in the environment.

Steroid hormones have been found in localized areas of the brain. These hormones are called neurosteroids because they are produced by neurons in the same way that the gonads and the adrenals generate steroids, but independently of the gonads and the adrenals ( Roselli, 1995). Neurosteroids exert their effects locally; they could organize certain areas of the fetal brain toward maleness or femaleness or could affect postnatal behavior directly ( Kabbadj et al., 1993). The existence of this third, independent hormonal pathway could explain why some very masculine-appearing and -acting men are gay ( Yates, 2000).

Sexual orientation in men is not correlated with androgen levels in adolescence or adulthood ( Green, 1978). However, approximately one-third of lesbians show elevated levels of testosterone ( Gartrell et al., 1977), although the levels remain well below the range of normal for men ( Meyer-Bahlberg, 1982). Dorner et al. (1991) suggest that these findings are due to prenatal stress and a congenital deficiency of enzymes involved in steroid synthesis. Adrenocorticotropic hormone administration significantly increases production of the cortisol precursor, 21-deoxycortisol, in gay men and lesbian women compared with nonhomosexual subjects. A similar increase occurs in the mothers of gay men.

Homosexual men are far more likely than other men to be born later on in the birth order and to have more older male siblings ( Blanchard and Bogaert, 1996). Conversely, parents who produce many sons are more likely to produce extremely effeminate or homosexual sons ( Pillard and Weinrich, 1986 ). Several explanations are possible, one of which is based on immunology. Long before a mother gives birth to a boy, fetal cells are circulating in her bloodstream. These persist as long as 27 years after the birth of the child ( Bianchi et al., 1996). The presence of male cells could provoke an immune reaction against Y chromosomal material.Theoretically, this could lower prenatal brain testosterone in later-born boys, thus affecting the structure and function of the brain. Later-born male infants and those with many older male siblings are known to have lower levels of testosterone than first-born male children. Siblings born close together have lower testosterone levels
than those born 4 or more years apart. The longer birth interval would allow the number of fetal cells in the maternal circulation to diminish.



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: Excerpts from: Child and Adolescent Psychiatry - A Compr  [message #31568 is a reply to message #31566] Sat, 29 April 2006 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Some very interesting stuff there - there are things that I hadn't picked up on through my normal reading (New Scientist magazine usually covers gay topics well, and has a 2-page article on "Same Sex, different rules" in the current issue which is a special issue on "love"). Thanks for posting it: I've obviously got some follow-up reading to do!

However, I did feel that the tone of the excerpts suggested that it was written by a homophobe trying valiantly to overcome his phobia! Full marks for trying, but the level of detachment I'd expect was in places just .... missing.

"Behavioral prodromata of male homosexuality (e.g., interest in girls' toys, cross-dressing). This seems to crop up in a lot of work about gay men not written or edited by a gay man! OK, so there may be some evidence that some sorts of gay men exhibit this ... but if we were *all* interested in "girls toys" and feminine roles, who on earth would we find to f*ck us? Straight men? Duh. The origins of the guys who can only "top" don't seem to be always explicable as having shown an interest in girls toys and then got scared and reacted against a feminine image.

"A boy with a female-configured brain would possess a strong innate bias toward homosexuality." .... "The existence of this third, independent hormonal pathway could explain why some very masculine-appearing and -acting men are gay" Again, the author is letting his value judgements show through. The assumption that gay men are in some sense "female" (because we're sexually attracted to men) too easily spills over into assumptions that we therefore all lie at the camp end of the behavioural spectrum ... the author has a real problem with masculine gay men, and really doesn't even seem to acknowledge the vast majority whose appearance and activity doesn't lie at either extreme.

So, in my view, an interesting and useful review of sources, but the author and editor really do need to learn a bit about value-neutral writing appropriate to a tricky field like sexual orientation.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Excerpts from: Child and Adolescent Psychiatry - A Compr  [message #31572 is a reply to message #31566] Sat, 29 April 2006 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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Hi David,
I know a lot has been written by psychologists and others about this issue and I agree with NW that bias shows thru a lot.
I just wanted to say that I wouldn't want to use these guys like Mooney to defend any idea that I was born gay. He did some research with twin boys that had absolutely devastating results to the boys and never once (that I know of) has ever shown regret about it nor has he allowed that he could have been wrong. I think you should read a book called "As Nature Made Him" by John Colapinto. I was fairly depressed for some time after reading it. There has been a lot of conclusions drawn from Mooney's work and reports which rely on his research with these two boys. After you read it, you might want to reconsider how sure you are that you are born gay or that a lot of things can be changed. This guy Mooney should have been drummed out of his profession, but that is only my opinion.



Ken
I am confused  [message #31576 is a reply to message #31572] Sat, 29 April 2006 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Sorry for butting in here.

Electroken said:
>There has been a lot of conclusions drawn from Mooney's work and reports which rely on his research with these two boys. After you read it, you might want to reconsider how sure you are that you are born gay or that a lot of things can be changed.

Well, firstly, I assume you are talking about John Money, not Mooney. I know virtually nothing about him myself, and it took quite a bit of searching to find out the correct name.

Secondly, in what way does his work make us reconsider? As I haven't read the book "As Nature Made Him", I assume you can give us a potted summary, and explain how it is relevant? I have heard the terrible story of David Reimer, but as far as I was aware this was more about gender identity and not so much to do with sexuality.

If anything, the fact that Reimer identified as a male and could not be "made" female supports the idea that gender identity (and maybe sexuality) is fixed at birth, and not influenced by environmental factors as we grow up. Is that what you were trying to say? Going on everything you have said so far it sounds like the opposite of what you believe (that you think you inadvertently made yourself gay).

From what I can gather (from Wikipedia), Money's other research into gender roles doesn't sound at all conclusive in regard to sexuality, as (as we are all aware) there is no clear link between sexuality and gender identification in homosexuals. (I.e. Gay men are not always effeminate, lesbians are not always butch.)

I'd appreciate it if you could clarify the point you were making; I am genuinely interested.

David
Re: I am confused  [message #31579 is a reply to message #31576] Sat, 29 April 2006 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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the guy who experimented with the Reimer twins made them simulate sexual acts together, with the entire boy in the male role and the emasculated one in the female role.

It seems he was not simply studying them, but filfilling some sort of macabre fantasy



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Still confused  [message #31580 is a reply to message #31579] Sat, 29 April 2006 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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>the guy who experimented with the Reimer twins made them simulate sexual acts together, with the entire boy in the male role and the emasculated one in the female role.

Which guy? Money? Do you have a source for that?

>It seems he was not simply studying them, but filfilling some sort of macabre fantasy

According to whom? I can imagine that if he has publicly acknowledged it was some sort of macabre (presumably sexual?) fantasy then he would have been locked up for child abuse in today's climate. If he hasn't it sounds suspiciously like libel.

Sorry, Timmy -- that doesn't really help answer my question!

David
Re: Still confused  [message #31581 is a reply to message #31580] Sat, 29 April 2006 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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my source is a TV documentary aired in the UK about 2 years ago. I can't answer the rest of your question



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Still confused  [message #31582 is a reply to message #31580] Sat, 29 April 2006 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

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Excuse me!!! ah hummmm. Is this the doctor that screwed up a circumcision on one twin and masde the choice ot make him a girl, gave him hormones and it wouldnt work. He grew up to be a boy with a girls body. What gets me is that the father didnt kill him.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Still confused  [message #31583 is a reply to message #31582] Sat, 29 April 2006 23:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Re: Still confused  [message #31584 is a reply to message #31583] Sat, 29 April 2006 23:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Money's ideas relating to gender and gender identity formation have come under criticism. Money maintained that a child's gender identity is fluid up to a certain age, after which this gender would become consolidated and more-or-less immutable. This theory was applied in the case of a male child, David Reimer, whose penis was destroyed due to a botched circumcision. This became to be known as the John/Joan case. The child was subsequently sexually reassigned as female. However, even though David Reimer was raised as a girl and never knew his early history, he behaved in a masculine way appropriate to a boy while he was a young child. Later attempts to socialize him as a girl failed. Money knew this yet never revealed this information for years, and his decision to "cover up" the facts of the case caused Money great difficulty in the medical community
Re: Still confused  [message #31585 is a reply to message #31584] Sun, 30 April 2006 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



If I had been the boys father I would have strangled Money with my bare hands. the parents were just as bad as him for lettin ghim get away with it. I guess its the redneck coming out in me. Im having a Teen moment. Excuse me.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Still confused  [message #31591 is a reply to message #31585] Sun, 30 April 2006 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Handyman is currently offline  Handyman

Likes it here

Registered: March 2006
Messages: 209



I'm with you Brian in those emotions..teen or not makes no diff in this case!! It's just plain sick!!

Maybe it was the same sick doctor who did the operation on a hermaphradite that I posted about in one of my earliest posts. That kind of arbitrary gender assignment is so cruel and the natural tendancies of the child should be allowed to show them selves first ..operations can be done later.. how sick!!

Just goes to show some of the so-called intelligent people in this world are glaringly devoid of some common sense & compassion.

Alexander Graham Bell was another & all that agreed with their ideas about deafness.. they conspired to get sign language taken out of schools & instead forced deafs to try to conform to hearing people's standards with large bulky hearing aids, rigoous training in speeach & lipreading (which only a very snmall minority of deafs can do weel enuf to get alond by that means alone..)

My ex was a victim of their stupid teachings..tho born deaf, her parents were told sign language was bad for deafs & she should be forced to speak & read lips.. Thus she had no real natural language for the first 13 years of her life.. tho she did master the english language fairly well, it wasn't her native tongue.. It's a hearing people's language, you idiots!! Sign language is a true language with all the syntax, etc of real languages..

Stupid university educated idiot doctors!! no wonder i prefer naturopaths (NDs) herbalists, dieticians & other natural doctors. The alopathic doctors have their head up their butts when it comes to understanding the natural basics of human life.

Do i sound opinionated?? oh, sorry.. Guess i am! I had thought to start a thread about the state of healthcare today in the so-called advanced societies of the world..

Teddy Cool



Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
Aaaaaarggggghhhh!  [message #31592 is a reply to message #31566] Sun, 30 April 2006 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



I've been working on a response for about an hour-and-a-half, and the 'illegal operation' window has just popped up and frozen - and then deleted - everything I'd written! I'll try again tomorrow - but in the meantime, I share NW's view that the encyclopedia article is biased - but I'd go further and say that it is appallingly uninformative and a complete and utter cop-out by the compilers - so there! (Kicks computer across room and retires to bed with large glass of malt whisky!)



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: Aaaaaarggggghhhh!  [message #31601 is a reply to message #31592] Sun, 30 April 2006 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



You should join Deeej and me and switch to Linux, at least most of the time.
(Sorry about your toes. A computer has pretty hard edges.)
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