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Why are we so different? We are just the same as everyone.. Yet our orientation, who we sleep with, makes us to be these monsters of some sort.. Whats worse, some people have commited suicide, beucase their pressure was too much.. What do you say to that?
I'm having a vision right now, believe it or not, well im thinking about it.. I'm amrried to a wonderful man, and my son, who turns out to be gay, and has a boyfriend, is killed one day at his school, stabbed, because of one difference in him.. One difference.. That's all it is, just one thing about us thats different.. So why must people say such bad things about us? It hurts you know.. Nobody you feel, cares about us, and it sux.. Even tho there are people who care, it's never going to be enough..
Why are people like this? Is it not right to kiss someone you feel close to? Why are we different? Someday, we will learn to accept everyone, despite their differences.. Yet now, there are people dying, dying... and it hurts.. For something we cannot change.. It's not our faults.. Cant you see that?..
Dammit, if we are so different, then why dont you kill us, if you hate us so much.. It's so hard... We bite the pain from every time we are beaten for this, and it kills us every time...
I just wanted to write this...
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Josh,
Those are all good questions, and, unfortunately, no-one really has the answers. Some among us maintain that the answers don't matter -- people should stop thinking "why?" and just accepting the way things are. Others maintain that the answers are key to understanding our place in the world. I guess I'm somewhere in between -- I want to know why, but only out of intellectual curiosity, not to try and change anything.
I don't think hate is in any way inevitable. Most homophobic people are just frightened of what they don't understand. Some are so determined not to understand that their fear starts to eat them up from inside, turning to disgust and hate -- much of it self-disgust, because I don't believe there is anyone who has never had a gay thought.
I hope that America will be prepared to follow the lead of Western Europe and start to view differing sexualities as just part of a spectrum (I assume you're American?). In the meantime, if there's anything that affects you personally, then please feel free to voice it -- there are many older and wiser people here who may be able to help.
Best wishes -- and hugs,
Deeej
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Thanks for commenting.
I just wanted to say what I thought of the whole thing. It's really unfortunate that people cant accept us..
I'm not American, I'm Canadian. We have a conservative government now, adn i hate them, and I think they should die, beucase they dont accept us.. Ok I dont think they should die, but I want people to accept us more.. Like how Chris' mother accepted him and Nigel as a couple..
But I guess that wont be happening any time soon..
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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One hopes that the liberal countries (where they exist -- if they exist) will act as a moderating influence on those that have a tendency towards fundamentalist conservatism. Problem is, while the British government is liberal in some ways (equal rights, etc.) it is not in others (moves towards a police state, the way they like to get into bed with George Bush).
I do hope that the world won't be a worse place to live in 50 years than it is now.
Sorry, Josh -- I hope my suggestion that you're American didn't offend you!
Best wishes,
David
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your assumption didnt offend me. I guess i should have said that i was canadian before. and for that, im sorry.
thanks for the comment. it's nice when poeple talk to you, that way your not talking to an empty wall. tho sometimes you wish you were, that way, nobody would hurt you, and you woudnt be hurt..
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, If he were from Brazil he would be American.
It never ceases to amaze me how those that immigrated to the united stated believe that they are the true "americans".
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Josh,
Oh, don't worry -- you don't need to give any information you don't feel comfortable giving. There are people here from all over the world. I'm not sure if there are any other Canadians (anyone?).
Messageboards are a great place to come to if you need to find like-minded people who will listen. I can certainly listen -- though I do tend to get sidetracked sometimes!
Deeej
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Well, it's convention, that's all. I was not technically incorrect suggesting Josh was American, but if he prefers to regard himself as Canadian then that's also fine by me.
There's a certain American "spirit" that is celebrated in the US and treated pretty much with indifference elsewhere -- I suppose that's what American is also used to mean, to a large extent, and that is pretty much confined to the US of A.
For a long time "European" really meant you were French or German (or from another country on the continent), not British. Even though we are technically European citizens, too. This has changed -- we're never allowed to forget we are part of Europe now.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You have made me think 
> Why are we so different? We are just the same as everyone.. Yet our orientation, who we sleep with, makes us to be these monsters of some sort.. Whats worse, some people have commited suicide, beucase their pressure was too much.. What do you say to that?
We are different, but in a very small way. We are the same ethnicity as those around us (by and large), we are left or right handed, just the same (Do find Grasshopper's handedness thing - I can't recall where just now), we are the same age group, the same religion. Our sole difference is so small as to be immaterial.
But little boys and little girls are taught at a very early age that you do not, in the allegedly civilised western world, kiss someone of the same gender. In my school many years ago, when I was 11 years old we had not heard of homosexuality. By 11 and a half we had. And it was funny, not bad.
Today life has altered and it is bad, not funny. Why is that?
> I'm having a vision right now, believe it or not, well im thinking about it.. I'm amrried to a wonderful man, and my son, who turns out to be gay, and has a boyfriend, is killed one day at his school, stabbed, because of one difference in him.. One difference.. That's all it is, just one thing about us thats different.. So why must people say such bad things about us? It hurts you know.. Nobody you feel, cares about us, and it sux.. Even tho there are people who care, it's never going to be enough..
People are afraid of difference. It is a tribal thing. We cleave to the familiar and fight or flee the unfamiliar. Different things are unfamiliar. So we run from the gay perosn or beat them up.
> Why are people like this? Is it not right to kiss someone you feel close to? Why are we different? Someday, we will learn to accept everyone, despite their differences.. Yet now, there are people dying, dying... and it hurts.. For something we cannot change.. It's not our faults.. Cant you see that?..
People are beginning to understand that we cannto change it. However look at the southern US states where the black man and woman have only recently escaped segregation, beatings, hangings. We cannot change in the same way they cannot, but we can at least masquerade, if we need to, as heterosexual. They could not. OK, that is digressing. But people don't care why you are what you are, they just get a blood scent and that that you are what you are.
> Dammit, if we are so different, then why dont you kill us, if you hate us so much.. It's so hard... We bite the pain from every time we are beaten for this, and it kills us every time...
Do you mind very much if they do not kill us?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I found it. Naturally I link to it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Oh so now its kick the U.S. around time. Turning walking away, feelings hurt.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Hey Timmy. I was hoping you'd reply, not too sure why, but I wanted you to. lol.
I think that parents are afraid of change. Why they are afraid, I dont know. I wish they werent. I wish we were accepted. Alas, we are not, and it hurts.
I do not mind if dont kill us. I'd prefer it if we weren't extinct. I want us to live, and I want people to accept us, and not care. But thats just me.
--
Why did I want you to be on? I dont know. I guess I just did. lol. Becuae I think your nice to talk to, and you've written the BEST STORY EVER. lol. I love it^_^ You're a nice person^_^ *blushes* lol. i blush easily..
^_^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Brian,
I read my post several times before posting and I can't see anything there that "kicks" the US. I am sorry that you think I'm trying to do that, because I tried to be as neutral as possible.
i. If Josh isn't American (by the commonly accepted meaning of the term) then there's nothing wrong with him saying he's not.
ii. I see nothing wrong with the American way of life, or American patriotism. I simply said that it's treated with indifference by the rest of the world, which is perfectly true. I would not expect a Frenchman to show patriotism for the US, nor an American citizen to uphold the French way of life as better than his own. Some might, but most wouldn't. If one did, the chances are that he would move to France.
There's nothing insulting about indifference. I'm indifferent about the Japanese, but that's not a racial slur (I hope!).
I assume you can't be offended by me maintaining that we (as in, the British) are part of Europe, as it's true.
David
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Hi, Josh,
Just something that happened the other day:
I was sitting among our students in a crowded schoolbus, behind a couple of girls. Then, as a matter of factly, one of them said, 'My brother has turned gay!' The other students obviously didn't care. There were no adverse comments, he is one of our students, too, they know he is, and it was ok. Like he had got a pair of new shoes.
She made my day!
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Hey Sailor. I'm Josh^_^
*shakes hand* Thanks for commenting^^ I'm hoping to meet someone at the youth group tonight who likes me, tho i doubt I will. lol.^^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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you flatter me with the writing. Most people can write once they let go of school English lessons. But I thank you. I tend to find other authors better. But oddly I do not recognise my own stories when I read them
Anyway, change: Parents and change. I am not a typical parent. I am gay, after all. But I have a 21 year old son. All his life has been change. I think I was able to cope with his being heterosexual pretty well. Oddly I half wished he were gay....
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Walking in with an attitude like.... "tho i doubt i will"...... kind of loads the dice against you don't you think?
Why not try walking in thinking.... "I can't wait to meet some nice people because meeting nice people might lead to something more."
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Oh josh, if you are in life as oyu are here, who could fail to like you?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Josh, you're a little muddled in your thinking. You are asking for tolerance, yet you hate your government. (By them I suppose you mean the members of it.) How can you expect tolerance from other people when you can't show it yourself?
Hugs
N
PS: BTW I love Canada, particularly the west.
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel,
I don't think there has to be a problem there.
It's okay to hate a government, because a government is there to make sensible policies according to a mixture of what is right and what the people want and what is best for the country (a huge conflict of interest there, of course). Criticism is part of the democratic process, and it's fine for us to dislike or even loathe them for the decisions they have collectively made -- to the extent that sometimes we wish they underwent a complete existence failure.
The only requirement is that it doesn't get personal. I took Josh's request for them to die as a metaphorical request simply for them to go away and disappear. In a democratic fashion, of course.
It's perfectly possible to respect the right of other people to hold differing views (even alien and unpleasant ones) without believing they are right, or even seeing their validity. I passionately dislike the Labour party; I have nothing against our Prime Minister, or even his cabinet (despite their recent escapades).
I'd be interested to hear your response, though, Josh, if you feel like making one.
Best wishes,
David
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>I have nothing against our Prime Minister, or even his cabinet (despite their recent escapades).
... is a little ambiguous. I mean, I would try not to hold their actions as government against them if I met them in a personal rather than an official capacity.
Where their personal actions and political actions are completely intertwined... well, it's an interesting question how I'd react. There's obviously a threshold somewhere: I would not, for example, shake hands with Nick Griffin; I'd be more likely to spit in his face. I'm not sure if that's personal or political, but in his case his views are so odious I don't really care.
David
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Sorry Deeej, I was just pulling your leg. If you had said something to upset me you would have known it in no certain terms.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Deeej
›It's okay to hate a government, because a government is there to make sensible policies according to a mixture of what is right and what the people want and what is best for the country‹
By putting forward this argument you are approving the loose use of language. If 'hate' has a different meaning on each side of the equation, there is no equation.
The intemperate language Josh uses reflects his inner feelings and I still maintain he lacks tolerance. I also heartily dislike our government, but I trust I tolerate them, although that may be because I have no alternative in the matter.
(Sorry, I don't know how to lift quotes from messages properly.)
Apologies, Josh, for talking about you rather than to you.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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The situation in North America is very different from the situation in Western Europe, so it helps to look at the possible reasons for that difference.
Timmy suggested that life has altered for the worse. So far as acceptance of homosexuality in the UK is concerned, I don't think it has. There was a gay couple in the village in which I grew up, half-a-century ago. They were obviously a subject of comment - as was the large Polish family who lived there – because they were out of the ordinary, but they were certainly accepted as part of the community. There were gay kids at school, and they, too, were accepted. One was pretty extrovert and was very popular; there'd be comments like 'Mind your bums, lads, here comes Kevin!', but he was well-liked and included in whatever was going on. He wasn't my type, though I did kiss him once and I'd have to admit he was good at it!
Throughout my working life, there have been gays among those with whom I worked, and again they have been treated with a mixture of indulgence and acceptance. Of course, those in public life have been pilloried in the press for homosexuality and many other things, but the British have a long tradition of applying a double standard: 'personally I don't give a damn what you do, but if you get caught I'll deny I ever said that.'.
Two things have changed in the last half-century. First of all, though homophobia has never been quite as rampant here as it is in the United States, it does exist, particularly (I hate to say this!) in Scotland. Some people have been discriminated against purely because of their sexuality, and there has been an ongoing campaign to achieve equality of treatment under the law. We now have possibly the strongest anti-discrimination legislation in the world, including the right to civil union. Of course, during the campaign period any discrimination became newsworthy and this created the impression that the situation was significantly worse than it actually was. We certainly do have problems with street violence, and very occasionally gays are attacked, but all the evidence suggests that the violence is indiscriminate rather than targeted.
The second change, very significant in the UK, is certainly bad, though it has its origin in an organisation which was formed with the best of intentions. For years the UK had an ostrich-like attitude to child molestation; cases which reached the courts were reported in salacious detail in the popular press, but the usual reaction was to brush the problem under the carpet. In consequence, lots of children were abused, particularly when in children’s homes; even if they complained to adults, action was rarely taken. Around twenty years ago, a charitable organisation, ‘Childline’, was formed. Any child could telephone and speak (anonymously if they wished) to a trained adult, who would institute whatever follow-up was necessary. The charity opened a very large can of worms, but an unlooked-for result was an outbreak of public paranoia about contact between adults and children. As part of the paranoid reaction, gay men were – without the slightest evidence – perceived as predators. There were some depressing incidences of vigilante reaction, and certainly it is necessary for gays to be extremely careful in the company of children – but in essence this has nothing to do with sexual orientation and much to do with cynical press reporting.
So, overall, I think that the level of gay tolerance has remained fairly constant, and it’s now underpinned by strong legislation.
What, then is the difference between the above picture and the situation in North America? Well, in the first half of the last century, Brits were regular winners of the annual International Arrogant Prats award. In the aftermath of World War II, we discovered that we weren’t half as clever as we thought we were, and that in some quarters we were pretty comprehensively hated. As British power waned, and our Empire changed into a Commonwealth of independent nations, we lost our enthusiasm for flag-waving. We even stopped singing the National Anthem on all but the most important ceremonial occasions. We realised (or most of us did) that our future lay in getting along with other nations, not in trying to dominate them.
The United States, in the same period, became top nation, and it has proceeded to make virtually all the mistakes that Britain made before it. The USA has a culture of Nationalism and unquestioning loyalty to the Star-Spangled Banner which is quite foreign to a modern Brit. But it is precisely this culture which allows the religious right to exert such influence. In the same way as US foreign policy is presented in ‘us and them’ terms, so the power base of fundamentalism is based on an ‘us and them’ separation. Power is increased when underpinned by hate; it has been so throughout history – if you don’t hate the other guy, what’s the incentive to be loyal to the State? Or the Church? The sad truth of the matter is simply that the ho-mo-sex-u-al is a convenient object of hatred. Gays exist in sufficient numbers to be used as a target. As the leaders of the right are well aware, most of those who claim to accept the Bible as the literal Word of God don’t actually read it through, and even if they do they don’t understand it. So they don’t latch on to the many inconsistencies. There’s no mileage in hating shellfish-eaters – Church leaders like clams too much – and there are practical difficulties in urging the congregation to stone unruly sons.
Obviously all this is a simplified view of the situation, but in its essentials I suggest that it is valid. The homophobia in the USA is simply a by-product of the cynical manipulation of religion by those whose god is power and wealth. Canada suffers from being next-door to the USA. The solution to the problem lies well in the future, but, in the meantime, voting Democrat (or Liberal in Canada) would do no harm!
Josh, this must seem like a lead weight in relation to your original post! I just want you to know that I am both romantic and poetic – very much so, in fact – but in my own small way I try to make a difference, and to do that you have to make a real effort to look for an explanation whenever you find yourself saying ‘Why?’.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Hey Cossie, you may be mildly surprised, but I mostly agree with all you said about the USA here. You are correct that we came out of WWII as clear leader and definitely the strongest nation on earth. I am not bragging as it was just the fact that the US had come thru the war almost unscathed compared to some of the others, particularly Great Britian, Germany, France, Italy, Russia and Japan. Our military might was at its peak while most nations were simply trying to rebuild from a devastating war. Remember that the mainland US was totally untouched by the war.
I have always wanted to be able to tell my British friends that I would like to make it clear to you that I know that the major reason for the Britsh to lose control of what had been their umpire or commenwealth after WWII was due to the strong influence of the US to encourage some of those former colonies to seperate from Great Britian. I dont think that a lot of them would have done it if it weren't for the encouragement and aid of the US to go ahead with it. I dont mean in it a derogatory way, but that the US certainly was not acting as a good friend to the British to help others tear away the Commonwealth from them. I wonder how soon India would have left and a number of others. The US pressured the British to give up many possessions they held at the start of the war and in my opinion tended to force the British into a lesser role in world politics and I dont mind telling you I am not proud of my country for doing that.
I will also admit that to my knowledge, the US is probably one of the most homophobic coutries in the world with some exceptions such as strongly Muslim countries and some such as strongly catholic South American countries such as Bolivia. I was in Bolivia myself and didnt see much to indicate it was homophobic, but on the other hand, I found family structure very strong and little evidence of gays in society. They must have been there, but I am sure they kept in the closet.
I agree that most of the extreme homophobia is coming from the religious right, but in my view those people are not exhibiting a very Christian attitude. I would like to see tolerance from all sides and a sort of live and let live attitude. I will not force them to do same sex acts with each other and they can just look away if I do.
I am probably moderate in my views about the marriage ammendments that are pending in a lot of places in the US. I think it is fine to define marriage but outrageous to make same sex unions illegal. They should be legal and give the same rights as a hetrosexual marriage; I just dont want to have to call them a marriage and I dont see why that invokes so much outrage from my gay friends. What the hell do we care if marriage is between man and woman if we can have an equally legal union with all the same rights. Why isnt this good enough?
I will answer my own question for you! It is because I think that most of my gay friends are not simply content with having the same RIGHTS as would be conferred by a union as by a marriage; they want the religious people and those on the right to be forced to admit a gay union is absolutely equal in every way to any other union. I think that is asking too much and will always invite anger and intolerance on the part of those on the religous end of things.
Now please guys dont accuse me of being a bigot. I am only giving my opinion of what I would feel is fair and would give each side what it wants.
I want Josh to know that I am really sad that he feels that his own country is against him and especially that his government would perhaps make his life difficult. I hope he doesnt have some kind of bad experience with some of those hate-filled anti-gay bigots. I would die for him in order to protect him from them. All I know is that every time hate wins that we have somebody who is hurt. It is maybe time to stop all the hate no matter who it is directed against. My God has that as his greatest message so maybe we could listen just a little bit.
Ken
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Hi Nigel,
>(Sorry, I don't know how to lift quotes from messages properly.)
Just copy and paste, adding a ">" (more than) at the beginning of a line. Seems to work for me. Or you can click the "Quote message" button and remove what you don't want.
I take your point -- there is a difference between "dislike but tolerate" and "hate and want to kill". However, young people often use superlatives (the second one) when their opinion is really more moderate (the first one). I gave Josh the benefit of the doubt.
Ah, well -- it's up to you, Josh, if you'd like to comment. None of this is personal.
Best wishes,
David
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Oh, okay, Brian.
I'll visit America one day and appreciate the "American spirit" first hand (unless you'd recommend otherwise!). Until then, I can only go on American's contributions to popular culture.
The one thing I will say about it is that it seems to exclude people from other cultures. There are a lot of American movies (especially teen movies, road trip movies, etc.) that make ever so many assumptions about their audience. It makes sense to a certain extent, as they are aimed principally at an American audience, but it's sometimes irritating to an international audience (to whom they are marketed too, and who supply a good proportion of the revenue).
Non-American English-language films (foreign-language films are slightly different because they tend to be aimed more at an art-house audience), on the other hand, usually have to make quite a few concessions to make them suitable for an American audience.
Hugs
David
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lots of people... funny i suppose. lol. but its alright, because i know that people care about me.^^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Everyone is so nice here. I suppose thats the beauty of the internet. Everyone is mice to you, and knows where your coming from. It's nice to feel safe from people you dont like. So thanks for that.
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Thanks, Deeej, for the help with he quotes. I think one problem was that I used the French 'inverted commas' for quotes rather than the more than / less than signs.
I think many of us oldies have a mission to guide younger people, Josh in this case. That might be viewed as arrogance rather than simply a desire to help.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Well, I, for one, have no objection to being guided! I've had plenty of very good advice from everyone round here, young and old.
On the whole, people wouldn't interact socially if there wasn't something in it for them -- even if just the satisfaction of knowing one they have helped others -- but you don't strike me as the slightest bit arrogant, Nigel.
Best wishes,
Deeej
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your right.. I dont support my government's views on homosexuals. I dont think I hate them, I just dont agree with them on that subject. Also, PM Harper keeps breaking promises that he says he'll keep..
So yah. But your right, I dont know why..
*hugs*
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... everyone might be mice to you, but now and again I smell a rat! ;-D ;-D ;-D
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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XDDD funny^_^(L)
~Pyro~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Hey, Josh ... 
