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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I've opened a new thread simply because I'm trying, so far as is possible, to isolate what - to me, at least - is a basic but important issue from any specific disagreement or particular individual.
The semantic distinction between discussion and debate is unimportant; what we do here is talk to each other about a wide range of issues of every description from the banal to the profound. In the nature of things disagreements will inevitably occur - the board would be far duller if this didn't happen. In my view, what matters is that the participants do not resort to invective and insults. Disagreement, of itself, is not in any way harmful - quite the reverse, in fact, since it makes each of us reconsider our thoughts, words and actions.
There are other message boards - some now closed in consequence - which have a sad history of flames, rudeness and generally crass behaviour. That hasn't happened here, substantially because of Timmy's sensible stewardship, but a line of some sort needs to be drawn and consistently applied.
I am making this fairly lengthy post because I would like to explore the issue in some depth in the hope of achieving some clarification, but one significant objective is to look dispassionately and impersonally at the disagreement which has occurred in the last few days. Timmy says that he asked us to be dispassionate, but instead he got 'all sorts of hidden vitriol'. I have read and re-read the posts in question, and I accept that things were said on all sides which perhaps would have been better unsaid, but on the scale of dangerous substances I think we are closer to sodium bicarbonate than to sulphuric acid! If the conversation had taken place in a pub, I can't see that anyone would have walked out as a result.
Timmy said in his most recent post on the 'Dryer' thread: "Because the angry behaviour persisted after I had asked for posts in this thread to be made unemotionally I stopped caring about rights and wrongs. That they are important to the participants is clear, but the behaviour has nullified that in my eyes. I thus no longer care."
I still think that this is a dangerous statement; to cease to care about right or wrong is, I suppose, the ultimate rejection of morality. I can see why Timmy is irritated, but I think that even the use of the word 'angry' overstates the issue. I am also unhappy about the implications of the use of words like 'squabbling' and the allusion to a schoolyard. This was NOT a major falling out, but a disagreement between adults - and, in the main, the exchanges were not unreasonable. The implied comparison with children taking sides and picking fights was at best unfair to those involved.
From my own standpoint, my years of management responsibility and the mistakes I have made and from which - I hope - I have learned have taught me the folly of criticising with a broad brush. Nothing de-motivates people more than being collectively criticised for the sins of a single individual. Hence, I am not at all happy with a blanket injunction which
may or may not apply to me. If I am being criticised, I want to know that 'I' am the subject of criticism, so that I can react accordingly. I do not use the suggestion of leaving as any sort of mantra; I will never again leave of my own volition, but when included in a blanket criticism I need to know whether my approach to the forum continues to be acceptable.
There have been three occasions when leaving has become an issue. The first was in May 2002, when after off-board discussion with several other posters we decided to leave because we had been told to abandon a discussion without explanation beyond the fact that it was upsetting someone. I do fully appreciate Timmy's difficulty here. He provides a lot of off-board advice and encouragement to a lot of people who need and benefit from his help. Someone presumably contacted him by e-mail, saying that they found the content of a particular thread distressing. Timmy prohibited further discussion on that thread. A difficult situation, as I am sure everyone will agree. I doubt, however, whether the reaction was in the best interests of the complainant. The complainant could of course registered under a pseudonym and expressed his view in the thread in question, or he could have asked a third party to do so on his behalf, or he could have simply avoided reading the thread - any of those options would, in my view, have been preferable.
Because I had enjoyed participating in the discussions, I continued as a regular, if not daily, lurker. And so it might have continued, but for a post about the killing of a Brazilian in London in the aftermath of the tube bombings. I felt so incensed by the presumption of 'facts' which were actually unknown, that I resumed posting on 25 July 2005. In parentheses, I have to say that some of the presumptions made by others have proved to be distressingly perceptive.
I resumed regular posting, and in December Brian appeared upon the scene. From his first arrival, I felt an affinity with him in terms of sense of humour and general outlook on life. I did my best to make him welcome, and to 'have fun' in our exchanges, but in February of this year there was a post suggesting that our relationship was in some way inappropriate. I had always regarded it as a 'grandfather - grandson' sort of thing - which might explain some more recent postings - but on that occasion I felt that I couldn't continue to hold up my head in this community without assurances (which I received in huge numbers) that my integrity was not in doubt.
This time the situation is even simpler: I don't see that I have said or done anything inappropriate, and I certainly don't feel able to give any sort of undertaking that I would not do the same again. If that's acceptable, I certainly won't go, because I enjoy this place too much, but if it's not acceptable I don't see that I have a choice.
In short, I repeat my conviction that this is the best gay forum on the internet. I want it to stay that way, and I appreciate that there are occasions when moderation is inevitable - but I insist upon being treated as an adult rather than a naughty schoolboy.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Cossie, You know how I stand, but Im prejudiced. All I can say is if you leave the board, I will. Im sorry that I was goaded into reacting in a negative way. I saw no where that Cossie was acting in a disrespectful way tword anyone. this makes me very sad and If everyone feels that Cossie was out of line, then they must think I was also.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and whatever happens, you're still my adopted grandson!
I just want to clarify where we stand - I ceratainly don't want to leave this board, because I think it's one of the most positive gay sites on the internet. It does a lot of good for a lot of guys, and I'd like you - and I - to continue to be part of that!
Hugs!
Grandad!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I can not tell from this wether you are making a point, a threat, or a promise....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Cossie,
If anything, as far as I'm concerned, you have acted as a moderating influence on this forum -- I, at least, hold great respect for anything you say (within reason!).
While I agree with many of your points, I'm aware that this thread is not really aimed at me. I would, however, say that if it is a question of Timmy's moderation or no board at all, I would certainly prefer the former. Most of the time, Timmy does a sterling job.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I am going to watch this rather than participate in it. I feel it a wholly valid topic, and I intend to learn from it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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OK, I'll stick my neck out. But only because I have learned to respect you, Cossie, and I both love and respect Timmy.
You said: If the conversation had taken place in a pub, I can't see that anyone would have walked out as a result.
Had I been in that pub I would have felt extremely uncomfortable - as an onlooker. Twice I intruded myself and suggested that the best thing everyone could do would be to let the whole thing die. Sadly, that didn't happen.
You quote Timmy as saying Because the angry behaviour persisted after I had asked for posts in this thread to be made unemotionally I stopped caring about rights and wrongs. That they are important to the participants is clear, but the behaviour has nullified that in my eyes. I thus no longer care. And then you comment: I still think that this is a dangerous statement; to cease to care about right or wrong is, I suppose, the ultimate rejection of morality.
I think you have misunderstood what Timmy was saying. I understood him to be saying that the tenor of the discussion left him not caring what the discussants thought was right and wrong: his only concern was civility. If I am right then your comment about morality is irrelevant.
Cossie, you write: This was NOT a major falling out, but a disagreement between adults - and, in the main, the exchanges were not unreasonable.
As an onlooker in the pub my impression was different from yours.
I think you feel that you have been unjustly criticised. My impression is that no criticism of your stance was either implied or intended. All that was asked for (by me) was that the discussion be abandoned - by everyone; all that Timmy asked for was that politeness and civility reign. That is in no way judgmental.
I am not at all happy with a blanket injunction which may or may not apply to me.
Methinks that here the cap may be burning on the head of the thief. If your name wasn't mentioned there is no need for you to assume that you were being singled out. Timmy wanted all the discussants to heed his request.
This time the situation is even simpler: I don't see that I have said or done anything inappropriate
Well, is not heeding the repeated request of the moderator and owner of the Message Board appropriate?
And now I want to conclude this useless intervention of mine with something personal: Cossie, your implied 'threat' of leaving the MB saddens me. If the opinion of anyone here deserves to be heard it is yours - and you make your opinion heard again and again with a clarity and literacy that makes it a pleasure to read. If you take umbrage and depart not only will the loss be yours, but it will be ours too. You know very well that Timmy neither asks people to come here nor requests them to stay. That is his policy and we have heard it from him many times. But it is not my policy. Please, Cossie, don't leave. I would be very unhappy if you did leave, if Brian left, if there was a domino effect.
Like others, most of them lurkers, I come here because here I find friends with whom for a short while every day I can relax and act naturally, lay down my mask. If you go you forsake me. Please don't.
(I can't believe that I have written this sentimental 'mush', Cossie, but it comes from the heart, so I let it stand and I will be judged.)
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I believe in Timmy's words: 'Simple behaviours, friendship, and love.. Which implies that we care about each other, keep a watchful eye on ourselves and mind our steps. This is why this place has done an awful lot of good to me, more than I had ever dreamt of when I started lurking here, little more than a year ago.
Gradually I discovered who was who, the difference in age, background, experience and temperament. From being a group of total strangers this place is now a group of people I almost know by name, and for whom I have the deepest respect.
When the thread 'Another Burning Question', and then 'Dryers', turned into a hostile discussion about who said what, and why, I felt that most principles of decent communication were broken. I was particularly disappointed by the way Brian was drawn into this. He deserves better, and fortunately several members reacted the same way I did, and voiced their opinions. I am sorry. Brian, I should have lifted my voice at that point, too.
Up to a certain age young people have certain privileges. Some of us are parents, and have done our best to protect our kids and keep them under our wings and, gradually, let them fly. Knowing Brian's history here, and his relationship with you, Cossie, I would have been very surprised if you hadn't entered the platform at some point, coming to the defence of Brian, who was clearly upset by what was going on. Defending Brian was therefore the right thing to do. I have re-read the two threads and have not changed my mind. You also had, and have, every right to defend yourself, even if you skin may be thicker and better impregnated than Brian's.
Cossie, I have only known you for a short period of time, but it feels like a long time. The way you took Brian under your wings impressed me greatly, and so has your great sense of of humour and of ethics and fair play. Besides, your extensive and enlightening lectures on almost every subject, have served to extend my understanding of both the subjects themselves and of the English language, and they may even have, I believe, improved my idiomatic skills, too.
I am looking forward to forthcoming posts from you!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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As regards pub discussions, I take it that you're unfamiliar with drinking arrangements in North-East England? Up here, it takes a lot to provoke anyone sufficiently to cause them to move away from a source of alcohol!
Actually, what I had in mind was the difference between a face-to-face disagreement and a post-to-post disagreement. I was imagining a group consisting of those who had contributed to the threads in question. In a face-to-face situation, the ‘onlookers’ would have exercised a moderating influence, and no single comment was so strong that this kind of moderation would have been insufficient. That can't happen in a forum, especially when we are not all present simultaneously.
Turning to the issue of rights and wrongs, I am afraid this is something I feel very strongly about. I prefer to keep my personal life out of the forum, but I worked for the UK Government and I was a specialist in a highly technical area of law. Not infrequently I was confronted by situations in which head and heart were obliged to diverge. Unlike some of my colleagues, I always tried to avoid the temptation to go for the middle ground to avoid the need to make a decision. OK, that’s different from the situation here, but an analogy which springs to mind is the schoolyard fight. Too often, all of those involved are equally punished because that is the easy option and avoids the need to seek out the truth. I find this appalling. If criticism is justified, it should be specific rather than general.
In point of fact, I don’t think I WAS being singled out; I certainly don’t think I have said anything which would merit such criticism. But because the chastisement was general, I might well have been included. If you recollect the last ‘hiccup’, back in February, the generality of Timmy’s injunction was intended to protect me – but for reasons explained then it actually had the opposite effect.
Back in the original thread about inside-out underwear, I had tried to intercede in a conciliatory way, but to no avail. When I made my next daily visit, the ‘Dryer’ thread had appeared and had already attracted a dozen posts, the last of which was Timmy’s request to allow the issue to drop. You are all aware that I have a close relationship with Brian (if one can be close at a distance of over 4000 miles!), but I honestly think that I would have felt compelled to post anyway, as one of the preceding posts irritated me intensely; I leave it to you to decide which post it was. In any event, I knew that Brian was hurt, and I thought it right to support him. What followed was not particularly pleasant, but hardly an outbreak of war.
I don’t deny Timmy’s right to moderate, and indeed I have congratulated him upon his even-handedness in a number of previous posts. I do however think that the ethos of the board is endangered by the rather patronising way in which this issue has been handled. I don’t like being treated as a schoolboy, and I doubt whether anyone else does – least of all anyone who actually IS a schoolboy! Might it be better for the initial injunction to be despatched by e-mail, only to be repeated on the board if the recipient declines to comply?
I blush at your concluding paragraphs, but I have no wish to depart – I enjoy myself here far too much to do so! The point I was trying to get across is simply that I will not promise to avoid criticising another poster – without resorting to insults – if I believe that he is acting unreasonably. You can judge me on my behaviour over the past ten months or so – I have neither the wish nor the intention to change. If that proved unacceptable, presumably I’d be asked to go, but as I said in my earlier post I will not leave on my own initiative.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I know I didn't have much to do with this problem but I do have an opinion. (you will all find out I have an opinion on almost everything) I dont mean to minimize this whole thing as I see that it has taken on a serious tone, but gee guys I hope we can all just let things get back to normal.
I am bit of an outsider in my opinion (see I told you so) as I am fairly new here on the posting end of things. I have known about this site for a bit more than 5 years, almost 6 I guess really. I know that Tim is a real swell guy and I have not met anyone here I would not like to come and visit if I have the chance. My first thought was to say that you guys have your undies in a knot as my little brain has this little humerous streak in it and I could see how that could be considered humorous being that the original post that got it all going was about undies.
I respect all of you and just hope everyone will stay put and I will have someone who can bail me out when I make my posts as I tend to post with my heart and not my head. I imagine David (Deeej) is nodding his head in agreement with that statement.....lol
I try not to take myself too seriously and it has kept me in good humor for most of my life. In my school days it used to keep me out of a lot of fights I would have lost for sure. I know that some feelings were hurt but I also have seen all of you involved make some very good posts in the past and I am sure you are great guys, so why cant we all just sit back and pound down a few brewskies?
I prefer German beer by the way as most of the good brewries here in Minnesota (which were incidently run by German brewmasters) have all but disappeared. I really miss them too!
HUGS to all
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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As far as I can tell people are suggesting that the status quo, while imperfect, works generally well. If that is the case, shall we just let this issue gravitate gently to the foot of the page?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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