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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Personally I don't feel overly comfortable with more than a peck on the lips in somewhere really public like on a bus or at the beach, but I support the right of couples, gay and straight to "pash" as long as there's no overtly sexual acts going on. A hug, holding hands, a peck, are all perfectly legal, for people of ANY ages and ANY genders, at least in Australia. Some people used to tell my straight friends to stop being "all over each other" at school, but it was never really overly sexual, so I never had a problem with it. I expect, and in the case of my friends, get the same treatment.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I don't think it is particularly appropriate to make-out in public. A kiss or a hug, sure, but not making-out.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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timmy wrote:
Do public displays of affection make you squirm or rejoice?
After having read the article I am not sure that Timmy's question is the right one. Surely, the question is whether the 'public' nature of the lifeguard's reaction was appropriate. I do not think it was.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... 'making out', in the context of the original article, was clearly no more than hugging and kissing, and it's difficult - in fact, pretty well impossible - to regard the lifeguards action as other than homophobic.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Rather than something that directly refers to it. From what I gather his question is about to hugging, kissing and 'making out' in general, rather than the article which was a blatantly excessively homophobic reaction. He'll correct me if I'm wrong.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think the article itself deals well enough with the lifeguard's reaction and the beach manager's reaction. In the main the article, a well balanced one, sees the reactions as inappropriate. As Saben says below, my question was inspired by it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Read the talkback by "guest worker". While you may be right, you may not be.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ummm ... public displays of affection make me rejoice, public displays of lust make me squirm?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and from what I have gleaned about Israeli ethics - largely from what I have read on this site - it seems inherently unlikely.
In any event, comments directed at a heterosexual couple might - and I stress MIGHT - be seen as humorous, but unless the plaintiff's claim is pure invention (unlikely, in view of the out-of-Court settlement), there was no humour here. He and his partner were subjected to humiliation by the beach manager and others in a manner which was clearly related to their sexuality rather than their actions.
As regards what I personally consider acceptable, I draw no distinction whatsoever between heterosexual and homosexual partners. Neither do I draw any particular line; it varies with circumstance, but I would disapprove of any behaviour which - if between heterosexual partners - would be likely to offend a significant proportion of those likely to witness it. Of course, those who are offended ONLY because the partners are homosexual should re-examine their view of life. Nevertheless, homosexual partners who are deliberately provocative are doing more harm than good for the gay community.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The article states that the beach is frequented by families with children......
Children are confused enough without seeing guys mugging up to furthur their confusion.....
Perhaps the lifeguard should have quietly asked rather than make a broadcast announcement that the boys stop their actions......
But the boys definatly should have been asked to curb their desires until they were in a more appropriate place.....
After there is a place for everything..... and that is not everyplace....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>Children are confused enough without seeing guys mugging up to furthur their confusion.....
Confused because they had never come across gay people before?
Confused because it's not appropriate behaviour?
The first one, as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant. Gay people are part of our society, and the point of being a parent is to explain things to one's children when they come across things they don't understand. Anyway, most things are confusing to children at some stage or another. The sooner things like homosexuality are explained (even in basic terms), the sooner they can move on and learn about something else.
If it's not appropriate behaviour, that's perfectly fine, provided that it's not appropriate behaviour for heterosexuals either. If it is, it is a discriminatory policy.
>But the boys definatly should have been asked to curb their desires until they were in a more appropriate place.....
>After there is a place for everything..... and that is not everyplace....
Well, I can't think of very many places where a straight couple hugging and kissing would not be appropriate. Even if it was, technically, most people (/staff etc.) would not complain provided it was discreet. Whereas they would be more likely to complain if it were two men (or two women), even if they were just as subtle about it.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Nevertheless.......
If I were the lifeguard, I would have asked them to go get a room....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Deeej wrote:
> (snip) Gay people are part of our society, and the point of being a parent is to explain things to one's children when they come across things they don't understand. Anyway, most things are confusing to children at some stage or another. The sooner things like homosexuality are explained (even in basic terms), the sooner they can move on and learn about something else.
>
Wise words. Certainly, by the age of five my niece (who is now 10) had asked her father (my brother) about all this, and had been told in simple terms that some men like women, and when they meet a special someone they may live together, or get married, and may have kids. Some men may find their special someone is another man, and they may live together, but can't get married. Sometimes people stop being special for each other and stop being married or living together.
There are examples of all these arrangments in my family: it is all safe, familiar, and just no big deal.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Wise words indeed......
But.......
Do other people have to live by the same creed?
Do other people have to talk to small children about these things meerly because "it is the right thing to do"?
Are there not people out there that believe that "the right thing to do is to insulate" their children from displays such as this?
Who is right? Who is wrong??
In some things, discression is more appropriate....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
>
> Are there not people out there that believe that "the right thing to do is to insulate" their children from displays such as this?
>
Sure there are. There are people who also believe that they should insulate their kids from contact with those of differing skin colours, religions ... Actually, if you really want to see people being revolted, try watching passers-by who see a physically-disabled couple "making out" (in an area where other couples both gay and straight are happily doing so - like Leicester Square in London). Kids seem to be more curious but less revolted by seeing this kind of thing than their parents!
If parents want to keep their kids away from real life, I reluctantly concede that they have the legal right to do so. But it's up to the parents to keep the kids away - real life (from seeing gay couples through to divorce or illness) has a nasty habit of intruding. My view, obviously, is that it's better to accept this and prepare kids to deal with it, but then I'm an uncle-of-three, not a parent. Any comments from those that are?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Comments from parents here are obviously going to be biased.....
After all, are there any straight parents here at all?
and if they are straight, why are they here?
That being said.... I would be elated if this were a perfect world and everyone could walk down the main street blowing kisses and strewing rose pettals hither the fro......
But it is a dangerous world and we need to protect ourselves the best way possible.... and irritating the general public is not the best way to do this.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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To insulate children from the real world is impossible. I learned more in school from other kids than I ever did from my mom. You would literally have to lock the kid away in a dark dungeon, to keep him or her away from real life.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Marc,
>But it is a dangerous world and we need to protect ourselves the best way possible.... and irritating the general public is not the best way to do this.....
I suspect America is probably a more dangerous 'world' than many other countries, though I can't speak for Israel. In the UK I have the impression that the general public is/would be pretty neutral regarding equal rights for kissing/hugging in public. In fact, it often seems to go the other way altogether -- those that complain about it are in some measure harassed for being homophobic. (Sometimes rightly, and unfortunately, sometimes wrongly.)
I don't think that agreeing on the general principal of the thing -- that the rules should be the same for all sexualities -- is irritating anyone. Obviously, individuals can irritate other people if they are indiscreet and provocative, but it was my understanding that it was not that sort of behaviour that we were talking about.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I thought it was making out on the beach.....
In my opinion.... That is over the limit of "safe behavior"
If you are so certain of "safeness" over there...... try smooching in a pub in a mining town..... but be sure to wear your running shoes..... you'll need em'.
I know that every other country on the planet is far more enlightened than the USA..... at least according to every one here from other than here......
The fact remains that a good asskicking can happen anywhere..... the UK and Israel included..... My point is that there need be none with proper precautions....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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As a parent I have a simple outlook. When someting is to be explained, explain it. DO so at the level suitable for the age and intelligence of the child. But do not go "finding things to explain".
Children respect adults who explain well, and children are not stupid. They know when they are being short changed.
It woudl be approproate, for example, to explaun the two Israeli lads in Tiberias as "I expect they like each other a lot." If pressed about gayness "I expect they are gay, yes". If needing to explain homosexuality it is also very easy. "Some people find they really like boys not girls (or vice versa). It's just one of those things that makes us human". And one moves gently on to the next interesting item.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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All the article said was:
>The two youths entered the water, but when they began hugging and kissing they heard the lifeguard calling them on the loudspeaker, urging them to get out of the water and approach him.
Marc said,
>I thought it was making out on the beach.....
I'm not really sure what "making out" is. I presume it is, however, more than just hugging and kissing? In the absence of further information I wouldn't like to guess which was the case. However, if heterosexual couples were allowed to do it, then gay couples should be allowed to, too. If they weren't, I don't mind if they weren't.
>If you are so certain of "safeness" over there...... try smooching in a pub in a mining town..... but be sure to wear your running shoes..... you'll need em'.
Hmm. Well, you're probably right that such working class communities (where they exist -- there ain't much mining done in this country any more) may be less liberal than others, especially middle class ones. However, I would like to think that in a decent, civilised part of town, British discretion would win out. I wouldn't know, though -- I would not go to a pub that I did not think was decent and civilised. And I would not "smooch" there, even if I had someone to smooch, 'cos it's not polite. That's different from not doing it because I did not feel I was entitled to.
David
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Marc wrote:
> The fact remains that a good asskicking can happen anywhere..... the UK and Israel included..... My point is that there need be none with proper precautions....
I largely agree with that - although one can suffer a mugging or non-homophobic violence anywhere at almost any time. Or get hit by lightning. Or whatever.
But we all draw the line as to how much we are prepared to compromise our activities in favour of personal safety in different ways and in different places ... there isn't any "right" or "wrong" about where we choose to do so. Personally, I think there are worse things than being put in hospital by a bunch of queerbashers, and one of the worse things would be to live my life in constant fear of being queerbashed. But that is perhaps easy for me to say: my last run-in was a long time ago (1980), and resulted only in a couple of cracked ribs ... . Yes, I do run the remote risk of something worse than hospital - that is a risk I am actually prepared to run.
As it happens, in the relationships I've been in, making out in public has not been something my partners have felt comfortable with, so I haven't done much of it. Holding hands I take as a gesture of affection, and I've certainly done that in all the usual places that straight couples do. And that is something that I would not have given up for anything: God willing, if "Mr Right" sweeps into my life at some future point, I will again hold hands in public!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I should probably mention that Marc's partner was murdered in NYC approximately a quarter of a century ago as a random queerbashing. Marc was attacked as well. And Ricky died in Marc's arms. They were just minding their own business.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am truly sorry if my post raises painful memories - such was not my intention.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I know you didn't intend any harm......
The fact of the matter was that I decided to walk to a destination rather than take a cab (as we were prone to do)..... I also made the mistake of walking a bit too close to him and that brought the attention of several thuggs out for a joy ride....
It was just such a slight bit of indescretion on my part that caused it to happen.... I guess I have grown to be just a little bit gun shy.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess I should also mention that whenever Kevy is out I panic if he is taking too long doing whatever he is doing.....
And he is always late (of course)......
I don't think I could handle it if something were to happen to him....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I spent many years secluded.... I was afrade of everything and everyone....
I kept my focus on my job and nothing else....
Now, I will take more chances.... But only to a point....
I choose my battlegounds very carefully....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Healing happens, though it is sometimes slow. The world itself is as dangerous as we allow it to be and as safe as we make it, barring accidents.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Every November, on the 11th, at 11am we have a minute's silence for those lost in the pursuit of freedom. I often think not just of those soldiers sent out to war but also the gay men and women that have been killed on the basis of sexuality. Part of my "gay pride" comes from the sacrifice of such people. Although few were willing martyrs and most were innocent victims of crime, intolerance and violence they are still heros, at least in my eyes. The progress that has been made up until this point on the Gay Liberation front is in part due to those that have lost their lives. Gays became more and more humanised when people saw them dying from acts of violence.
As NW says, I would probably, at least in theory and ideology be willing to sacrifice my well-being and possibly my life in the pursuit of freedom. I hope in our modern society I will never have to. But would I be willing to sacrifice the life of my boyfriend? Not at all. Not even a little bit.
Ryan and I choose our battles, or at least we try to. In our local area and shopping complex we never hold hands, but when we go into the city we do, especially in and around the more "gay-friendly suburbs". On crowded trains we usually do, too. One time we had someone whistle at us from across the other side of the road and another time a guy dressed in labourer-type clothing muttered "fags" to us as he turned around and got off the train. But most people don't react outwardly at all. We have even kissed a few times in public, though usually pretty discretely, we get plenty of time for intimacy at home.
I was a lot more confident with Jake, he was a former Australian Judo champion when he was about 15, so dating in grade 12 he and I were as open as any straight couple at school. We would "pash" at lunch time, we went together and danced at the school social and we would dance as provocatively as any of the straight couples there. A lot of people called us "fags" but with Jake being pretty well built, fit and probably able to take down 3 guys his size no-one dared try anything. To be honest, half the reason he and I started dating was political, we WANTED to be a couple that everyone knew about, we WANTED the other gay kids at school not to feel so alone and we were as publically out as we could manage to that end.
On a crowded beach I'd hold hands and out in the water I'd probably kiss and hug, discretely, but on an isolated beach with few people around I'd only do it if we were far enough away from everyone else not to be noticed.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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of what those two boys went through. I took this picture of a typical lifeguard station last Friday, early in the morning before people got onto the beach. Note the red flag which indicates that no lifeguard is present and therefore swimming is forbidden (though everyone does it). More importantly, notive the four loudspeakers. Our hotel room was at least 300 metres away from the beach and we could here EVERYTHING the lifeguards were shouting all the time - even above the roar of people watching the World Cup on giant video screens on the beach!
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The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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So, thinking about the old boating lake:
"Come in, number sixty-nine, your time is up!"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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