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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have now watched and learnt much from the interchange between Marc and Cossie. I am not deliovering a judgement or a verdict, but I am making an observation, and one which I hope will be heeded.
This messageboard is intended as a virtual place where people may being their troubles, consider making friendships and also become comfortable enough to discuss their pain.
It is, if you like, a quiet haven, an oasis, where friends who do not really know each other, can present themselves as they choose to present themselves, to other people in the same boat.
When we discuss pain, we are hurting. Sometimes we don't even know why we are hurting. And those times are the times when we may make posts that we genuinely wish we had not. And, sometimes we get backed into or back ourselves into corners we never realised were there and cannot extricate ourselves simply because we were backed in there.
My feeling is that, when we hurt, we should try to trust each other enough to explain why we are hurting, rather than showing we hurt by a post. My observation is not just for Marc, though, Marc, I know you will take it personally. And the observation is not an attack in any way. And it is for all who hurt and who are abrupt
But I observe that, when you hurt, we all hurt, because of the way you post "at" us rather than "to us. I don't think we deserve that. And yet we none of us know what you, any of you, suffer at the time you post. IN many ways this observation is now a request.
Turn to us and ask for what you need. Do not poke us with a sharp stick. We may be wholly unable to help, but we are wholly able to listen.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> I have now watched and learnt much from the interchange between Marc and Cossie. I am not deliovering a judgement or a verdict, but I am making an observation, and one which I hope will be heeded.
>
> This messageboard is intended as a virtual place where people may being their troubles, consider making friendships and also become comfortable enough to discuss their pain.
>
> It is, if you like, a quiet haven, an oasis, where friends who do not really know each other, can present themselves as they choose to present themselves, to other people in the same boat.
>
> When we discuss pain, we are hurting. Sometimes we don't even know why we are hurting. And those times are the times when we may make posts that we genuinely wish we had not. And, sometimes we get backed into or back ourselves into corners we never realised were there and cannot extricate ourselves simply because we were backed in there.
>
> My feeling is that, when we hurt, we should try to trust each other enough to explain why we are hurting, rather than showing we hurt by a post. My observation is not just for Marc, though, Marc, I know you will take it personally. And the observation is not an attack in any way. And it is for all who hurt and who are abrupt
>
> But I observe that, when you hurt, we all hurt, because of the way you post "at" us rather than "to us. I don't think we deserve that. And yet we none of us know what you, any of you, suffer at the time you post. IN many ways this observation is now a request.
>
> Turn to us and ask for what you need. Do not poke us with a sharp stick. We may be wholly unable to help, but we are wholly able to listen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
First, I don't take it personally..... Actually, I have decided not to take anything personally any more.... It is not worth the anguish of the ulcers and certainly not worthy of the attention it brings to those hell bent to aggrivate me.... In other words they are not worth the worry...
And secondly..... Whenever I am in serious mode.... and I decide to post "to" the board I am ignored....
I don't think I deserve that.........
Just know that I don't mean the silly postings like what sort of topping you like on a hot dog....
I do however seem to merit a response when I post "at" an issue....
To trust people is not an easy step for some to take.... There are many here I do not trust.... Some for things they have said in the past and some for things they do not say when they have (or had) the chance....
Also, there is the fact that when I have something to say I am just going to say it.... If I see something untoward I will bring it to the attention of everyone.... I know what posts are going to become problematic just due to the fact that the "cliques" by definition can do no wrong and therefore seem to believe it their responsibility to police the board....
But, I fully understand what you are saying.... Both in black and white and between the lines as well....
I know there is probably more I need to say but I am also working and am a bit distracted at the moment....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I have stayed out of this for a couple of reasons (1) They are my adopted granddad and my friend (2) It would force me to take sides and I wont do that (3) I dislike arguements and fights, especially when they are between two people I care about (4) Im not old enough. Timmy Im glad you have asked for peace. I dont know how things effect others on the board, I just know how they effect me. I havent really been reading the posts (guess Im kind of a coward). This board has become my family, This is where I turn when Im upset, happy, just want to be silly or have a serious question to ask. I guess every kid wants to see peace in his or her family.
PS Yes I know what a couple is.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Brian1407a wrote:
> This board has become my family, This is where I turn when Im upset, happy, just want to be silly or have a serious question to ask. I guess every kid wants to see peace in his or her family.
>
I guess there attributes are not meant for older people....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Sorry, I think I opened my mouth and stuck my foot in it.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian1407a wrote:
> Sorry, I think I opened my mouth and stuck my foot in it.
No Brian, I absolutely don't think that you did. I think that what you said goes for most of us here, and I don't think that just because you said "I guess every kid wants to see peace in his or her family" you meant that older people didn't. I certainly didn't take it that way ... and, at 51, people do tend to see me as an adult or older person (though I'm frequently a kid at heart, like many of us).
You've made the point in a lot of your posts that you're "just a kid" ... it is just part of the way you seem to do things. I think you notice your age more than some of the rest of us tend to !
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I cant answer for everybody, just for myself. I dont think that was an attack on older people. I try to avoid arguements, altho Im not always sucessful.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Sorry NW. Im from one of those "Children should be seen and not heard" familys. Im constantly told that my opinion doesnt count or Im not supposed to have an opinion. I think its mostly a reflex action.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I never said you made an attack.....
I was making a comparison.....
and hopefully a point as well.....
I guess once again I missed on both counts.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I, for one, *always* value your opinion Brian, however you choose to present it.
As, indeed, I value the opinions of just about all the people who post here. Yes Marc, that includes you, as I hope and trust you know: and often precisely *because* we don't always see eye-to-eye.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Im sorry Marc. I should have made myself more specific and clear.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There really is nothing between the lines. I think, hope, I was explicit, open straightforward.
People, I think you included, want to come here, take up a chair, kick off their shoes and relax. And that includes strenuous discussions about diffult topics. Those, too, are relaxing.
I understand about trust. We each have our own thresholds of trust. We can each bring evidence that we should trust less, and also that we should trust more.
As for posting in serious mode, we all get ignored. No-one is exempt from being ignored. I've been ignored on many occasions. We get used to it. Or we ignore it. After all, not every conversation is interesting. And some surprising ones become interesting.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There is, however, one thing I will reinforce. There are no cliques.
There are groups of people who get on with each other well, yes. There are those groups in life wherever one is. But they are not cliques.
You have oft mentioned cliques. I have oft refuted it.
But even were there to be cliques, what then? Why would that affect you?
I have been told "Tim, you accept behaviour form Marc that you would accept from no-one else". Does that make us a clique, you and I, just because we have been friends for a long time?
And for those who have said this to me, the answer is no, I do not. But I also try very hard to do what it says at the head of the board. It is a high wire act with no safety net. The critics shoudl try it sometime.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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NW wrote:
>
> As, indeed, I value the opinions of just about all the people who post here. Yes Marc, that includes you, as I hope and trust you know: and often precisely *because* we don't always see eye-to-eye.
Yes, I do know.... And I appreciate your postings as well.... Even when you tell me I am being an ass you do it with decorum......
While we are on the subject JFR and Tim as well is also a post im a manner that I appreciate (even though sometimes I don't show it) because he posts with genuine kindness.
All I can say is that I know they (and you) are straightforward while being helpfully frank.... All the while with nothing but good intentions at heart.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I always knew I had no decorum.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you understand us. We may not be "right", whatever "right" means, but we try very hard to be balanced and with no hidden agenda. Even if you do not agree with what he says I think you might also consider including cossie in the list.
What I have noticed is that it is our friends who are the best to pull us up as ask us if we are sure we are on the right road. Those who do not care simply do not care.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Even if you do not agree with what he says I think you might also consider including cossie in the list.
>
Errr..... No.... I don't think so....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... unless the situation changes.
This began because I was deeply upset that JFR withdrew because of Marc's attitude. JFR is one of the most perceptive, thoughtful, courteous and KIND posters we have. He had done nothing whatsoever to deserve such treatment. In fact, his courtesy to Marc in the face of adverse postings in the past has gone far beyond what could reasonably be expected.
As Timmy says, there are NO cliques here - it is a figment of Marc's imagination - but I assume that his remarks were directed against Deeej and myself, as well as JFR. Again, I think Marc's comments were insulting to Deeej, especially coming as they did after his rude response to Deeej in the 'Doctors' thread.
Marc complains that no-one responds to his 'serious' posts. I confess that I hadn't noticed that; I very rarely start new posts myself, as I much prefer to comment on discussions that are already under way. But surely there is no obligation upon anyone to respond to ANY post; you simply comment on those which interest you.
And I have NEVER said that Marc is not entitled to say what he wants to say on any topic under the sun; my point is that he is exempt from the conventions of courteous and civilised behaviour. It is the snide remarks and rudeness to which I take exception.
In a similar vein I also dislike the innuendo of his remarks about trust. Marc, like anyone else, is free to trust or distrust whom he likes, but there is no justification for alleging - without putting forward any evidence - that there are posters in this community who are not to be trusted. That is just gratuitous mudslinging.
I do take Timmy's point about posters feeling pain - though in general I don't wholly agree with it. I don't see that one's own unhappiness is justification for attacking someone else, whether manually or verbally. Nevertheless, I agree that there can be times when we can all do something which we regret. The appropriate follow-up is an apology, not another attack.
It's perfectly clear from Marc's response to Timmy's original post that he sees himself as the injured party, and considers that I am the villain of the piece. Well, I can't abide rudeness, whether directed against me or a third party. Whatever anyone's views may be, and whatever the subject he may be addressing, his position can be stated in a courteous and civil manner. Marc says 'if I see something untoward I will bring it to the attention of everyone'. Nothing wrong with that, if it is done courteously and civilly. But why, then, it it wrong that I draw attention to Marc's incivility and rudeness?
I have no intention of leaving the board. I also have no intention of criticising Marc, so long as he conforms to the standards which we are all entitled to expect. So there is no reason why we cannot live in peace and harmony. Is there?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Interesting.....
As far as a clique.... group.... squad.... Whatever you wish to call it.... Well you believe what you want and I will believe what I want....
As far as trust, it is no innuendu.... I am outright saying that I do not trust you.... The reason is because of some things you said in the past. I will not go into the details as this is apparently water under the bridge. The only reason I am commenting as I am here is because you insisted on taking a personal slant on my comment reguarding trust issues in your post. Once that issue was closed by Tim... I held my tongue.
My response to Tim was to Tim.... The interpretation you chose is yours not mine.
As far as harmony goes.... There is always the potential for it.... Actually I prefer it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Now.......
All this being said......
All I am going to say is that for me it is over..... Tim suggested that I take a little leap of faith so I have decided to take a chance.....
Whats done is done..... Whats in the past is in the past.....
I extend my hand..... lets shake and make up.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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In fact, more than willingly.
If you have issues of trust, let's talk about them off-board. If you feel the need to hit out - and we all do, sometimes - feel welcome to hit out at me off-board. I really am capable of understanding - well, most of the time, anyway!
I love this place, and I lost my cool when you appeared to hurt someone I respect a great deal. Maybe I was just as wrong to lose my cool as you were to hurt him. None of us are perfect!
Let's make this a new start - and let's do a deal! If I get up your nose, tell me by e-mail before saying anything on the board, and give me time to answer. I promise that I will do the same. Deal?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Yes,
That works for me....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... let's do it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I think I understand Marc’s allusion to cliques, it could be an anomaly of the net in that when we come to a forum we are total strangers and despite the subject of the post, whether serious or light, there could be the appearance of one standing on the outside of the circle. I know this has been discussed time and again but the effect of being separated physically from one another, I think is profound. We can all agree that communication is far more than just words spoken or written. I just wonder if there is anyway around our natural sensitivity to the need and the lack of these physical queues in this realm.
I know in my case I am not a writer of any skill and belies the true me therefore I tend to not say anything even though I may like to at times, such as this hehe. So please forgive the grammatical and punctuation errors you may find in this post.
On that note, a while back I posted to a thread where the subject of HIV came up and I made many errors both factually and grammatically, the facts I was wrong about I’ll leave to another thread. What I would like to address is, and here I may be totally wrong again, in another part o the same thread I feel my short comings as far as my writing skills were being lambasted, all be it couched in the most grammatically correct yet veiled way. True or false I don’t know, and really it’s not that important. I guess what I’m trying to say is that as far as possible we need to set aside judgment and try to be discerning. Case in point, though no excuse, I might say in defense that I work nights and when I wrote that post I had been up all night and something said in the post I was responding to while not totally wrong struck a cord, in that it made, I felt, conclusions that were incorrect and unsupportable. LOL just goes to show two wrong do not make a right.
Sorry to go on so long here. I’m not trying to set any standards. As has been said here Timmy does a great job with that. If I may though, what we write can be construed in so many and certainly subjective ways. Maybe if we ask, before we go off half cocked when something is said that may seem to be an offence of some kind. I think we tend to assume far too much. When I say something even when I am in the presence of the person or persons I am addressing, and what I say is not totally clear we or I at least ask for further clarification. Get all the facts, don’t judge blindly. Above all be nice to one another, being rude whether direct or veiled in the finest of phrase serves no purpose.
One last thing. An old saying goes, that if you point your finger, rememeber you have three pointing back at you by your own hand.
::-)
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You do realise that, if oyu two form a clique, we all reserve the right to mention it?
But, more seriously, good job well done.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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