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In the English school system, what are "removes"
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I went through the private schooling system in the uk. I have nver ever had any idea what they are.
No-one I know knows either.
I always thought they were some kind of remedial group for thick kids.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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In one school I went to, "remove" was originally a dummy form for kids who had finished Lower School (under-13) work, but were not able to go into Upper School (13+) - but I'm not sure if because the kids were bright and had finished early (so were waiting for the right age for entry), or less bright and were being held back until the next group started (13 being "common entrance", when most kids left prep school to go on to public school).
At some point it became used as a standard form ... in the days before "years". A public school I worked in (in my early 20s) used "shell" for the same idea.
My own main secondary school didn't have either of these, but we had two years in the Fourth Form ... the lower fourth being what would be a "remove" elsewhere.
So we went 2nd, 3rd, L4th, U4th, 5th. Sixth form at that point was usually 2 years (L6th, U6th) ... apart from people who had stayed on to do Oxford or Cambridge Entrance which was a term later than our main A-level exams - these were called "3rd year 6th"
Those, like me, who repeated their final year because they wanted to change tracks or re-sit A levels were NOT called "3rd year 6th"!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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(follow-up). OK, so I thought I'd better check ... Chambers (the dictionary I use most, as its good on colloquial and UK regional stuff) says "in some schools, an intermediate class" - not terribly helpful really, but kinda confirming that "remove" being an intermediate class between Lower School and Upper School is not inappropriate.
But most Public Schools, even relatively modern (ie nineteenth century) foundations, have their own peculiar language and usages ... my own school may be unusual in not having done so to any great extent - probably a result of being mainly dayboys not boarders, and being an Independant not a Public school. We've just celebrated the 525th anniversary of the founding of the school ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Cool, thanks guys.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I was educated (well, I use the term loosely!) at a semi-independent Grammar School - about 750 pupils from 11 to 19. From the Fourth Form (Year 10) classes were categorised by thr letters 'H', 'S' and 'G': 4H (or 4H1 and 4H2 if demand was high) catered for those aiming for an Arts degree at university ('H' stood for 'Humanities'; I never could understand why they didn't just use 'A' for 'Arts'). Similarly, 4S was for those aiming for a Science degree. 4G ('G' for 'General Studies') catered for those intending to leave school after the Fifth Form. It was unthinkable that anyone going into the Sixth Form would not proceed to University, so the possibility was simply ignored; the reality, of course was a bit different!
Those from 4H proceeded to 5H, and then to 6 Beta (H) and 6 Alpha (H). In the same way, those from 4S proceeded via 5S to 6 Beta (S) and 6 Alpha (S). Those from 4G moved to 5G and thence to the big wide world outside. But among them there were those who failed to obtain adequate GCEs for their intended careers, and stayed on to try again. They were gathered together in 5R; you've guessed it - 'R' stood for 'Remove'.
Inter-school activities of one sort ot another took me around much of southern Scotland and occasionally across the border to England. Though by no means universally adopted, similar naming systems were fairly common.
Not being part of the soft underbelly of Britain (which consists of pretty well everywhere South of Lancashire and Yorkshire!), we had no truck with namby-pamby Common Entrance Exams (smirks complacently!), so our 'Remove' was at age 16 rather than 13, but I agree with NW that it was a term applied to a group of pupils who, for one reason or another, were 'removed' from the normal academic progression.
Just out of curiosity, Brian, what brought the subject up? I can't imagine that there's a proposal to create a remove at Rednecksville High!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I have read in several stories when the term Remove was used, and was just curious about it. Also what is the Form thingy?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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No move to create something new. We have simple grades 1 thru 12. However we have special schools. If someone isnt to bright on the mental scale but were good with their hands, they would go to a technical school or trade school. There are Comprehinsive schools which have a mix of both. Then there are the magnet schools. They are for the more gifted. Even inside the cariculum for the Magnet schools there are different levels. We have advanced level, college level and advanced college level. Way back when (I think the ice age) they only had just 1 thru 12. Guys like me and Kol were picked on, beat on and we were bored with work we had bypassed long ago. Think goodness someone started thinking. Unfortunately they allow jocks to attend magnet school, with their jock attitudes, so the picking and beating still goes on.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... is just another example of the difference between the United States and proper civilisation!
Much to the annoyance of guys like me - and several other posters - the US practice of using years 1 to 12 has been adopted over here. The proper way of doing things - well, we'd been doing it for generations, so it must be the proper way! - was to divide the years of education into three groups: infants, primary and secondary schools.
The infant school normally comprised a reception class, which admitted new starters, mostly aged 4 but some aged 5, and two progressive classes, equivalent to your years 1 and 2. You then moved on to primary school, which had four classes, corresponding to your years 3, 4, 5 and 6. Often (but not always) the infant and primary schools were on the same site, though with separate playgrounds and other facilities.
When I went to school, and when my kids went to school, it was the practice to call infant and primary school classes by the name of the teacher - for example 'Miss Hetherington's Class' or 'Mr. Fisher's Class'.
However, on moving to secondary school, you traditionally started in the First Form (Year 7) and compulsory education continued to the Fifth Form (Year 11). There would be a Form Master (like the USA homeroom teacher), but he would usually teach only one subject - sometimes two. Unlike the picture I get from USA stories, it was the custom to keep forms together as far as possible; teachers moved around the school much more than students, though of course students had to move for classes such as Gym or Physics, and minority subjects such as Greek or German.
'The Sixth Form' embraced years 12 and 13, usually known either as 6 Beta and 6 Alpha, or as the Lower Sixth and Upper Sixth. Curiously, even though
we now refer to years 12 and 13, in areas where students from several schools are brought together at that level, the combined school is almost always called a 'Sixth Form College'.
Now in the namby-pamby South of Britain, where people like Timmy and Deeej live, they have these strange institutions which are private schools (your parents pay through the nose for you to go, unless you win a scholarship) but call themselves public schools. Being from the tough, virile North, I know very little about such peculiar institutions - but, as they say, " ... where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise!"
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie wrote:
> Now in the namby-pamby South of Britain, where people like Timmy and Deeej live, they have these strange institutions which are private schools (your parents pay through the nose for you to go, unless you win a scholarship) but call themselves public schools. Being from the tough, virile North, I know very little about such peculiar institutions - but, as they say, " ... where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise!"
Umm ... Gordonstoun is usually considered to be a Public School - and was responsible for Prince Charles, if I remember right. Fettes College might not be ... if our not-altogether-totally-beloved Prime Minister is a typical example, their educational methods don't exactly result in a rounded and well-educated end product.
And I somehow think of Strathallen as being a Public School, and also Glenalmond - am I mistakened in this?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie, I think your school sounds as though it would have been totally lost with some of the wierd subject combinations that guys in my year at my school did! One lad did Chemistry, Greek, Geography for A level, and then stayed on an extra year to do Art in one year, for example. An extreme example, but a science plus a language, or a science plus english, were both popular.
How did your school cope with kids intending to do subjects at Uni which could be read as either BA or BSc (such as Anthropology, which I studied) ?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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cossie wrote:
> ... is just another example of the difference between the United States and proper civilisation!
>
> Much to the annoyance of guys like me - and several other posters - the US practice of using years 1 to 12 has been adopted over here. The proper way of doing things - well, we'd been doing it for generations, so it must be the proper way! - was to divide the years of education into three groups: infants, primary and secondary schools.
Here we the 3 group system as well as measuring the year of grade, Grammar school covers years K through 6, Middle school 7 through 9 and High school to year 12..... Although not all school districts adhere strictly to this platform.....
>
> The infant school normally comprised a reception class, which admitted new starters, mostly aged 4 but some aged 5, and two progressive classes, equivalent to your years 1 and 2. You then moved on to primary school, which had four classes, corresponding to your years 3, 4, 5 and 6. Often (but not always) the infant and primary schools were on the same site, though with separate playgrounds and other facilities.
>
> When I went to school, and when my kids went to school, it was the practice to call infant and primary school classes by the name of the teacher - for example 'Miss Hetherington's Class' or 'Mr. Fisher's Class'.
>
> However, on moving to secondary school, you traditionally started in the First Form (Year 7) and compulsory education continued to the Fifth Form (Year 11). There would be a Form Master (like the USA homeroom teacher), but he would usually teach only one subject - sometimes two. Unlike the picture I get from USA stories, it was the custom to keep forms together as far as possible; teachers moved around the school much more than students, though of course students had to move for classes such as Gym or Physics, and minority subjects such as Greek or German.
Here, for the most part, home room is little more than a place for students to gather and be counted.... Both teachers and students move around to classrooms. Most times the classes do not move about in a group from class to class.....
>
> 'The Sixth Form' embraced years 12 and 13, usually known either as 6 Beta and 6 Alpha, or as the Lower Sixth and Upper Sixth. Curiously, even though
> we now refer to years 12 and 13, in areas where students from several schools are brought together at that level, the combined school is almost always called a 'Sixth Form College'.
>
> Now in the namby-pamby South of Britain, where people like Timmy and Deeej live, they have these strange institutions which are private schools (your parents pay through the nose for you to go, unless you win a scholarship) but call themselves public schools. Being from the tough, virile North, I know very little about such peculiar institutions - but, as they say, " ... where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise!"
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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As I implied in the first paragraph of my post, the naming system was highly theoretical; it was often bent out of shape in practice.
The school did everything it could to accommodate student preferences, but with a sixth form of less than 100 in total - say 40+ in each year - there were occasional logistic problems. With limited resources, not every choice could be accommodated. I went by the 4H - 5H route, but after taking GCEs I decided that I couldn't write sufficiently quickly to do myself justice in essay-based examinations such as history and geography. No-one batted an eyelid when I switched to 6B(S) and went on to do A-levels in Maths, Further Maths and Physics, and continued with Mathematics at Uni.
So far as I can recollect, it was always possible to combine 'popular' arts and science subjects; the problems arose when a student wanted to combine a less-popular arts subject such as Greek or Russian with a less-popular science subject such as Further Mathematics or Astronomy.
Merging schools into larger units provided greater choice, but in retrospect I think that the benefits of smaller, more intimate grammar schools outweighed the disadvantages.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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There ARE institutions of the kind you mention (shudder!) within the geographical boundaries of Scotland, but they are not PART of Scotland. I see similarities with Guantanamo Bay - they are small enclaves of English territory - indeed, Southern English territory! - within Scotland, inside which the English carry out curious acts which the Scottish population view with deep suspicion. They are tolerated only for the economic benefits which accrue to the surrounding communities - not least the illicit market in high price, low quality whisky!
So now you know!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I have to admit that the tongue-in-cheek objection to our adoption of American customs wasn't meant seriously, though we do get more than our fair share of changes in the UK. We've imported metrication and a lot more besides from the European Union, but at the same time we've adopted quite a lot of American practices. Sometimes it does seem that our traditional culture is being squeezed out of us, but I suppose that's progress!
At least we seem to cope better than the Irish Republic - last time I was over there, about five years ago, they were well on the way to converting all direction signs to show kilometres rather than miles, but all the speed limit signs were still in miles per hour! Then again, maybe we're not so clever ourselves; we still always talk of fuel consumption in terms of miles per gallon, but for several years we've been legally obliged to buy petrol (gas) or diesel in litres - only milk and beer can legally be sold in pints and gallons.
As regards the homeroom system, it's basically similar to the form-master system, in that a specified teacher turns up, checks the register and deals with any issues of the day. The difference is that once this has been done, a form master would normally leave to teach a different class, and a different master would appear to take the first lesson. Of course, as students progress through the school and have an increasing choice of subjects, those taking minority interest subjects move around the school for their classes, but those taking 'core' subjects - English Language, English Literature, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, History, Geography, French and (in my day) Latin - usually stay put; the teachers do the moving. Its one of those situations in which neither system is better or worse than the other - they are simply different.
In fact, I think one of the greatest pleasures I have derived from the internet is the discovery of just how different our supposedly similar cultures can be!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie wrote:
> (snip) - not least the illicit market in high price, low quality whisky!
>
Makes change from Red Biddy or Buckfast "Tonic Wine", I suppose - the drinks which my grandmother used to say were staples when she was teaching in the Raploch in the 1930s.
Apologies if the previous sentence is total gibberish to anyone unfamiliar with the central belt of Scotland ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... it cleans up my shower splendidly!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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And what about Wincarnis and Sanatogen?
"Mine's a vodka and Phyllosan"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but my son tells me that Wincarnis is good for de-greasing car engines and Sanatogen works well as a weedkiller.
Yup, you're better off with a vodka - but no double shots of Phyllosan, 'cos at your age it might give rise to a public order offence!
I have a suspicion that your post and this reply may be pretty well unintelligible to the bulk of the population - which, of course, shows how refined and superior we are!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Just to confuse the matter there is also a class that is know as the Shell. It originated in Westminster School, but I know no more.
In one school I taught at the fourth form (Year 10) was called the Shell and then someone had the brilliant idea of calling it the fourth form and the Shell became a form in the junior school.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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A "Shell" is one of those unfortunate suits just pre-chav.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I think you're shell-shocked!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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