|
|
broadwaydreams
|
 |
Getting started |
Location: United States of America
Registered: June 2006
Messages: 3
|
|
|
Hello,
I posted a message here some months ago under the name lostconfusedandbroken. That seems like another life time. The problems that were happening in August still go on today, I just had a qustion. Someone said that you don't choose your sexuality, it just is. But my church teaches differently. In fact it contridicts almost everything. I don't know who to believe. All I know is that I have passionate feelings inside of me. And when I walk down the halls of my highschool. Its the guys that I am looking at. And I know that when I read these stories at this site I think inside why can't my life be. I know that they are just stories and peoples life aren't really like that. They are heightened reality. I know, quoting Monty Pythons' Spamalot, that when you look at the world is just a pile of shit. Thats what I know. I don't know what I believe. I have been taught my entire life that the feelings inside of me are wrong. That I can choose not to be homosexual. I just....I want to know. Why god why today? Why this people in this place? I liked my memories as they were, but know I'll leave remembering them. Just them.
[Edited to disguise poster's name - timmy]
[Updated on: Thu, 29 June 2006 21:02] by Moderator
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Your church got it wrong.........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
broadwaydreams
|
|
Getting started |
Location: United States of America
Registered: June 2006
Messages: 3
|
|
|
Yes, you say that but how do you know?
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi Mathew
I don't think that there are many people who believe that being gay is a choice (except a very few people who have a vested interest -often financial- in running "ex-gay" campaigns and camps, or those who have recently completed such courses). It seems that quite a lot of gay men realised that they were atracted to the same sex at a very early age - in my own case aged around 4 or 5, and I'm not unusual in that. I certainly have no recollection of "choosing" to be gay, and I find it hard to believe that God would stick us with a choice like like that so long before we're at the age of responsibility. I don't myself believe that God is malicious! Being attracted to the same sex seems to be just one of those things ... like being attracted to blond(e)s or redheads, or whatever. THERE IS NO SHAME AND NO SIN IN BEING ATTRACTED TO PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX. In that sense, I have to agree with Marc's post - Your church got it wrong..... . If you are attracted to other guys, (in my opinion) that is the way God made you ... however each of us understands "God" and "made".
Where I do think you have a choice is in what you *do* about same-sex attractions. You can choose to explore them, or not. You can be celibate, or promiscuous, or anywhere in between. You can be open to the possibility of a committed relationship with another guy ... which you may or may not decide should include a physical sexual relationship. And only you can decide what *your own* relationship with God is calling you to do about this, and it may change at different periods in your life.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It depends if you believe the church is infallible. If so, then ... well, the church can't have got it wrong and that's all there is to it.
However, there are so many other ways of looking at it:
i. Many religious people see no conflict, and live happily as a member of their religion.
ii. Every religion has many denominations, many of which are entirely supportive of alternative sexualities. If the one you are part of is hostile, live your life according to another. (I appreciate that under certain circumstances it is difficult to do this outwardly, but there is no reason you can't do it inwardly.)
iii. There are many flaws with assuming that religious doctrine is always right -- doctrine was, after all, written down by men. This does not prevent God from existing as you would like him to exist.
You don't have to forsake religion to accept any of these three points, though, as always (I tell everyone this) I would urge you to question your philosophy at all times, to make sure you're not accepting things to be true unquestioningly.
And, of course, it has been proven again and again that your sexuality is not something you choose, so if anyone is telling you that you should know they are either ignorant of the subject or willfully lying.
Matt -- we exchanged emails a few times, then you decided you would rather not. If you'd like to email me again, you're welcome to. But please don't feel any obligation.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Matt. You have my invitation to talk by email. If you dont wish that thats ok, I think I can understand. Deeej is a top notch guy and will have nothing but good advice. My whole family is southern Baptist, so I know where your coming from. Me!! I refuse to let some dude on a pulpit tell me how to live my life. If your gay your gay and that cant be changed. Now you can be celabit all your life and be misserable. Or you can accept things like they are, Ignore church doctrin, when you turn 18 get you a b/f and live life. When I first came here I was a bit like you. Deeej Cossie and all the others made me part of their family and life has been magic since. You can talk to me or Deeej by mail if you like or you can talk on the board, up to you.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
He said very clearly that homosexuality is inborn. He said that the LDS church will support the man who chooses not to express his homosexuality and does not condemn him. He said that homosexual acts are viewed as sinful, and those are condemned. But that the homosexual man is not condemned as an LDS member or as a person.
I've often thought about you and how you are getting on.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Look......
God made me in his image......
I am gay.......
Therefore a part of what "god" is has to be by default...... gay
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
broadwaydreams
|
|
Getting started |
Location: United States of America
Registered: June 2006
Messages: 3
|
|
|
Yes, I remember you saying that. I know the attraction is not a sin. But acting on the attraction is. So thats just saying that I can be gay, but I can never do anything about it. I am supposed to marry a woman. But women do not attract me, I do however want to have children one day. I don't get it. It's like the church is saying I can be attracted to guys, I just am not allowed to do anything about it.
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Matt, it boils down to what do you want. You can follow your church dogma, get married to a woman and live a miserable life never being fullfilled with the kind of love you really want. Then again you can tell them to kiss your butt, graduate from school, go to college date a few guys, fall in love with a guy and have a happy fullfilling life.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
By the way. did you know that the founder of LDS was the town drunk and he was still a kid. He was sued by a guy for making a claim he couldnt produce? He told the dude that he could put this stone in his hat and find water. (errr you know the crystal stones that were used to translate the stone tablets). By the way, this is a matter of public records. IM not cutting down your religion, but I would be sort of weary of a religion that was founded by the town drunk. Sorry if thats a bit harsh but its true so you can hate me if you want.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cossie
|
 |
On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
|
|
|
... and I won't pretend that there's an easy answer. I was very much involved in my Church when I was in my teens, although it was admittedly more laid back than yours - which I assume to be LDS - but as I have grown older I have amicably drifted away and I am now agnostic. The drift wasn't associated with my being gay; it arose from a combination of many factors. I still attend services occasionally, simply because I enjoy the ritual and atmosphere, and I am certainly not anti-religious.
Right, having got my credentials out of the way, let's look at the real issue - which is how you deal with two contradictory interpretations of the same situation. No-one can tell you how you ought to think (not even the Church!); only you can ultimately decide what is right for you. Please bear with the first bit, which reviews religious history; it IS relevant, as I hope I will make clear!
The major religions which spread from Europe and the Middle East - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - clearly arose from a common root, which has been interpreted in different ways. Judaism was just one of many related religious beliefs practiced in the ancient Middle East; the Jewish religion crystallised into something separate and apart - probably as a fairly gradual process - after Abraham and Noah's Flood, but probably before the captivity in Egypt. We know this because stories of Abraham and Noah (or their counterparts) survived in other cognate religions. Then came Christianity, which retained the Jewish sacred writings but became a separate religion. A few centuries later Islam took root, and effectively 'mopped up' those who were neither Jewish nor Christian.
From the earliest days of the Christian Church there was argument about pretty well every aspect of the faith. It had taken root throughout most of the Roman world, but beliefs and practices varied widely. The Roman Emperor Constantine the Great was largely responsible for unifying Christanity by calling councils of bishops at Arles, and later at Nicea.
Much is made of Constantine's divine inspiration, but from a historical perspective it is abundantly clear that his association with Christianity was driven by political expediency. Although he was the son of his predecessor Constantius Chlorus, he was a usurper. At that stage in Roman history, the empire was ruled by a 'tetrarchy' - a kind of committee of four Emperors - two senior, with the title of 'Augustus', and two junior, with the title of 'Caesar'. One pair, consisting of an Augustus and a Caesar, was responsible for the Eastern empire, the other pair ruled in the West. Each Augustus normally appointed his Caesar, and was succeeded by him. After the death of Constantius Chlorus, and following his wishes, Constantine was proclaimed Emperor by the Roman Legions in Britain, but it took twenty years of campaining before he could defeat the rival claimants and make himself the undisputed sole ruler of the empire. The old Roman gods were in decline, and Constantine saw the advantages of unifying the empire by embracing the vigorous growth of Christianity. He made Christianity a legal religion throughout the empire, and because of his sponsorship it effectively became the state religion. Constantine presided at the councils of bishops, and clearly influenced their thinking; he established the precedent that the emperor was the effective leader of the Church - but the surviving evidence suggests that he himself was not baptised until shortly before his death.
So Constantine was influential in establishing the Nicene Creed - the statement of belief which still underpins the vast majority of Christian churches - but he was not himself a Christian at that time. A few years later - and without any discussion, Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria issued a writ in his diocese specifying the books which comprise the New Testament. He was a very political bishop, with strong and sometimes controversial views, but his list was gradually adopted throughout the Christian world. We know that there were many other Gospels and Christian writings in circulation at that time, but anything which contradicted Athanasius' point of view was suppressed.
Constantine was a man with a political agenda. Athanasius was a man with a fiery temper and political ambitions of his own. Yet these two men exerted an immense influence on the development of the Christian Church.
Of course, man being an argumentative animal, further disputes arose. First, the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Churches separated in the Great Schism. Subsequently the Protestant Church split from the Roman Catholic Church - originally retaining much the same ritual, but using local language and rejecting the authority of the Bishop of Rome. Thereafter, several other churches split from the core protestant churches - Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Quakers and numerous others. Each split was the result of a dispute as to the proper interpretation of Christian principles. All of these disputes were disputes between MEN - men with different views and agendas, and men who stood to gain considerable influence if their views prevailed.
The Bible is regularly misused by those, especially fundamentalists, who selectively choose 'sound bites' to justify their opinions. If, however, it is considered as a whole (ignoring the problems of duplications and contradictions in detail) it can be seen as a generic history of the Jewish nation, combined with a rule of life which was manifestly sensible for the age in which it was written. Its objective was to unify the Jewish people, and it fulfilled that purpose admirably. Even the apparent condemnation of homosexuality in Leviticus can be seen as rational if we consider the fact that homosexuality was commonplace among the Canaanites from whom the Jews were anxious to distance themselves. Of course, what is right for one age is not necessarily right for another.
It's pretty clear from the New Testament that by that stage in their history the Jews had politicised their religion to serve the needs of those who commanded influence in their community. The overwheming message taught by Jesus was to be tolerant, rather than self-righteous. Nowhere is this better expressed than in the parable of the Good Samaritan, where a man from a race which the Jews regarded as inferior was shown to be superior to the pious representatives of the Jewish establishment.
It is however abundantly clear that the same kind of self-interest has corrupted pretty much every twig which has sprung from the Christian root. Religious schism is due to the actions of men, not to the actions of God. And the tenets of faith of each such religion were set down by man, not by God.
It surely must be so. Each division has occurred because a man (or a group of men) have argued that their interpretation of Christianity is that ordained by God. Can any professing Christian really believe this? Jesus taught, above all else, the virtue of tolerance. Is it conceivable that the merciful God of whom Jesus speaks would reject such a large proportion of those who profess to believe in him?
I think that it is reasonable to accept that those who have formed breakaway Churches have acted with the best of intentions, but does that mean that their actions were ordained by God himself? That seems, to say the least, to be unlikely.
So, however strongly you adhere to your chosen faith, you need to accept that your Church is not infallible. God may be infallible; men can never aspire to be so.
I'm not sure how LDS regards the creation story, but I would argue that it must BE a story. The scientific evidence that the world is incomprehensibly older than 6000 years is, I would suggest, overwhelming.I have deliberately avoided commenting on LDS because I don't have enough detailed knowledge (even though I am distantly related to Brigham Young!), but I see no reason to suppose that its provenance is superior to any other schismatic group. Surely God is not so small minded!
That's not a theological dismissal of LDS; the religion probably served its adherents well. All I seek to argue is that, like every other variation of the myriad Christian religions, its canon was born of man, not of God, and it is not necessarily correct in every respect.
If we are to accept the validity of scientific research, we must admit at the outset that research into the causes of homosexuality are woefully inadequate. This is largely because studies have been financed either by gay-friendly groups or by fundamentalist religious groups. The potential for bias is obvious. Few studies have focussed upon twins separated at birth - the preferred choice of researchers attempting to distinguish between genetic and environmental influences. From those which have focussed upon that obvious group, the significant finding is that if one identical twin (identical twins have an identical genetic inheritance) is gay, the other is also gay is very significantly higher than the corresponding figures for fratenal twins (who do not share identical genes). Nevertheless, the correspondence of identical twins is not absolute, so the logical implication is that the while predisposition to be gay may be genetic, there is still some kind of environmental trigger which determines gender orientation. But that certainly does not mean that being gay is a choice. I cannot see how denying one's sexuality can fulfill God's design; there are innumerable gays who have made this world a better place. In the final analysis, you need to ask yourself what God wants, not what you Church wants.
This is, I think, the longest post I have ever written. I hope it means something to you and, if it does, feel free to respond. I'll talk either on or off the board, but if we stay on board it may help someone else!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Friend,
A lot of good advice has been posted here in reponse to your post, and I am not sure that I can do any better. I could give you a detailed and authoritative response from the viewpoint of another religion, but that would not really help you at this stage in your life.
As a member of the LDS church you believe that you were created in God's image. That is why you have been blessed with intelligence and the ability to form mental judgements. When it comes to judging between good and bad the religious person will let his religious teachings dominate; but when it comes to assessing facts he must let his intellectual apparatus take charge. In your case, whether or not you chose to be gay is something that your intellectual apparatus will tell you (but you already know the answer). Since you know that you are attracted to other males because that is the way you are and not because you have made a conscious choice in the matter, it must follow according to the teachings of your religion that your sexual orientation is God's will for you.
What you decide to do about that is a different matter. Personally, I think that Brian encapsulated the possibilities for you brilliantly. And at this stage in your life you cannot yet make such decisions. But you can prepare yourself for them; you can come to terms with yourself - gradually and over time.
The best advice I can give at the moment is that you go to a video lending library such as Blockbusters or - if you can afford it - buy from Amazon, the movie "Latter Days". Watch that movie and the scales will fall from your eyes.
Good luck, dear friend. And remember: we are all here when you want whatever help we can give.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have posted here in the past as showing a belief that I dont think we are born gay, but Cossie has pointed out some very logical things here in a way which I would feel is very fair and about as unbiased as I have heard in one talk.
Although I dont think we are born gay, I do think there is subsequently little choice once the elements have been set in motion. Cossie mentions that there is a lot of disagreement about how we become gay and I certainly agree. I have questioned how it happened in my own case and have a feeling that maybe I could have been altered things if I had some different things happen to me at various times in my teen years. That is, I feel I could have been happy with a girl but in some ways I never gave myself that chance. It is surely different for all of us and some are very certain about the orientation and feel it was always so since they were able to remember. Not all of us see it that way and I am one of them, but in the long run, I don't know if it could have made any difference and that I would still be the same way even if I had tried to do something to see if I could be attracted to girls more.
So really it is like some kind of fear you develop such as being afraid of heights. I dont think I was born that way and, in fact, I can remember the exact reason I became afraid. Now no matter how hard I try to be logical about it or reason with myself that it is irrational to now be afraid of heights when just the moment before I had not been, it makes no difference and I am still afraid. It is a moot point as they say.
On the other hand, there are some who only think they might be gay but have never done anything with another person nor had anything but some vague thoughts about it. I would suggest they give things time to sort out and not rush into outing themselves to anyone. That is my only reason to question things a bit with some younger kids.
I hope you read Cossie's post carefully and see that he is giving you a very fair comment about religion and how it can be so twisted around sometimes to make some things seem to be sins that are not. I dont think you are sinful just because you experience some attractions for guys.
Ken
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
a church is simply one interpretation of a belief in a deity. If yoiu have an ovrall belief in a deity, then "all" you have to do is be patient until you find the right church.
OK, that sounds simple, and it is not. Moving from a strict church like yours can lead to family issues. But so can being gay within that church.
It is a long road of quiet decision making.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
You know, town drunks can reform. And kids have value. We can't denigrate a religion because its founder was once socially inappropriate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Broadwayboy,
When I was young I did what friends, family and the church expected of me. Having children and grandchildren is in itself is a fulfillment and brings great happiness into my life, but there were numerous times along the road to where I am now, that I felt like cheating on both my wife and myself. Not until I was single again and my hair had started to turn grey I found out that time had come for some honesty. Living on denial brings frustration and unhappiness into your own life, and that of others, and I am convinced that that is against God's will. Listen to JFR: Prepare for the time when you can make your own decisions, and come to terms with yourself.
You say: It's like the church is saying I can be attracted to guys, I just am not allowed to do anything about it.
Exactly! No-one can say a thing like that without turning their backs to reality, that being gay isn't something you choose to be, and it is not something that can be reversed or "mended".
Recently many bishops, priests, theologians and other church leaders in Norway have stood up and told us that they have changed their minds about homosexuality. One of our Lutheran bishops, Laila Riksaasen Dahl, made a lengthy statement this spring about her own process towards a new interpretation of the Bible. She is convinced that the church's established views and teachings on homosexuality are wrong, and that they collide with the way Jesus himself met people, especially outcasts. Jesus accepted them and gave them his blessings and a new dignity. He also reprimanded the pharisees and the theologians who used the Law to denigrate and condemn people. If the church does want to promote lifelong monogamous relationships it is illogical to deny a gay couple the blessing of the church when they want to enter and protect such a relationship.
These are words by a theologian, and not even one of the "radicals" that church members are constantly warned against. "The Church" isn't a homogeneous entity, and despite vigorous attempts by ultra conservatives to turn the clock backwards, there are already now churches and church groups where gay people are welcome.
You are not alone. Each and everyone here is your friend, and you have got someone to talk to, openly or in private.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I left the Church at 18 and my Mum has moved away from it since. I no longer believe in that the Church is factual but I do believe that a lot of the doctrine it teaches is inspired.
Free Agency is a divine gift from God, remember that. Conscience is a tool given to you from God. That is the foundation of Testimony. That is why I'm not in the Church anymore. Whatever your bishop says, YOUR OWN answer is the one that matters FOR YOU. Pray long, pray hard, God doesn't only affirm to truth found in the Book of Mormon, he affirms the truth in your life.
My Bishop's advice to me was that I stay single until I can overcome being gay through prayer and God given strength. I got my own answer. Maybe you can "overcome" being gay, maybe you can't. You need to find your own answer, though, not be given an answer by anyone else.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
The answer is that it is possible to live a heterosexual lifestyle, marry, raise a family and externally be everything a heterosexual man is. And you can be happy.
The challenges to this come in huge batches. They come when something reminds you suddenly and overpoweringly that you are not heterosexual. They are emotional and intellectual challenges, and they are hard as hard can be. And those challenges affect your wife, if you are married, and your children if you have them, because they affect you.
What you are and how you act are different. I am gay. I act heterosexual. It works, mostly, except when it does not. But the love of and making love to a woman, however wonderful a friend, does not overcome being gay. It simply helps you not to live as a gay man, if that is what you choose.
You can be happy. It is just that sometimes you will be demonstrably unhappy.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
A small footnote regarding twins. I know an identical twin who is gay. His brother is not. And they were raised together in a loving family.
The only thing this says is that the cause of sexual orientation os hugely complex. Note that it says nothing about sexual preference, which is nothing whatsoever to do with orientation. (I can BE one thing and PREFER another: My wife eats meat but would prefer to be a vegetarian))
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy said,
>Note that it says nothing about sexual preference, which is nothing whatsoever to do with orientation.
Okay, that did make sense as far as I'm concerned, until I read your clarifying statement:
>I can BE one thing and PREFER another: My wife eats meat but would prefer to be a vegetarian
This means she IS a vegetarian, despite eating meat, simply because she would PREFER not to? The analogy doesn't work: being a vegetarian is something you either ARE or ARE NOT, whereas sexuality, being something in the mind and not signified by actions, cannot be defined so simply.
Convert that statement to work with sexualities:
"My friend has a wife but would prefer to be gay"
In other words, his sexual preference is gay but his orientation is straight? Why can't both be gay?
Perhaps the problem is that, as I see it, both orientation and preference are entirely psychological things, and it's quite possible to invent yet another one, lets say "sexual circumstance", which signifies action and has little bearing on either orientation or preference.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy said,
>I can BE one thing and PREFER another: My wife eats meat but would prefer to be a vegetarian
I said,
This means she IS a vegetarian, despite eating meat, simply because she would PREFER not to?
Reading it again, I can see that that's not what it says. I've evidently been reading too much into the words.
Even so, I have to say that I don't see that sexual preference has anything to do with actions (though I suppose it has more to do with actions than orientation per se does). I can prefer to have sex with men (over women) without ever having had sex. And I can still prefer it even if I enter a monogamous relationship with a woman.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> The answer is that it is possible to live a heterosexual lifestyle, marry, raise a family and externally be everything a heterosexual man is. And you can be happy.
>
> The challenges to this come in huge batches. They come when something reminds you suddenly and overpoweringly that you are not heterosexual. They are emotional and intellectual challenges, and they are hard as hard can be. And those challenges affect your wife, if you are married, and your children if you have them, because they affect you.
>
> What you are and how you act are different. I am gay. I act heterosexual. It works, mostly, except when it does not. But the love of and making love to a woman, however wonderful a friend, does not overcome being gay. It simply helps you not to live as a gay man, if that is what you choose.
>
> You can be happy. It is just that sometimes you will be demonstrably unhappy.
That is like saying the light bulb works except that it is burned out.
Living a life that is built on lies and deception can not be a happy one.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Now we're getting into a really interesting area!
For me, being an "gay man" is fundamental to who I am - at a very deep level my sexuality, and my attitude to it, has shaped my life, my politics, my religious beliefs, the way I relate to family members, my work ... and because I feel that my homosexuality pervades so much of what I am, it would be impossible for me not to be fully "out".
But that is just the way I am. And other people have other things that shape their lives equally fundamentally. For some, it can be religious experience and conviction: for a priest in a religion that demands clerical celibacy, personal homo- or hetero-sexuality may be less important than the strength of the sex urge. For some, it can be the experience of fatherhood (my straight brother became a father at 40 ... it was defining for him: in some sense he had always been a "latent father" waiting to express things very basic to him).
In that sense, I don't think that a gay man who chooses to be (or remain) married is necessarily building a life on "lies and deception" : I am quite happy to accept that for many people their sexuality is not a defining characteristic, although I can't really understand it. In exactly the same way, I am happy to accept that most people are "straight", but I have no real understanding of what it would feel like to be straight myself.
It seems to me that - at least for those of us who take a fairly analytical approach to our lives - the really important thing is to know ourselves as well as we can, and to work with whatever that turns out to be.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry -- I see the problem now:
>I can BE one thing and PREFER another:
>My wife eats meat but would prefer to be a vegetarian
as compared to (for example, by implication)
>I am gay but I prefer to live a straight lifestyle
The difference is that your wife eating meat is an ACTION which does not reflect internal DESIRE/OPINION whereas you being gay is an inherent DESIRE/OPINION which is not reflected in ACTION. So the statements aren't equivalent.
I'm off my rocker; please ignore me.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
If a gay person marries to live "the str8 life" is fine.....
If he/she marries without first telling the intended spouse the real truth then it is a lie and the act is deceptive.....
Omission of the truth is a lie nonetheless.....
There is no doubt that gay people try to make the str8 life their own but in the end their true selves do affect the relationship.
Being totaly up front is one thing and if that scienerio works then fine but masking ones true self for the sake of convienance or appearance is quite another.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Desires and or opinions are two of the (many) key factors in determining what action in any given set of circumstances is warranted.
True the statements are not equivilant to each other but they are interdependant.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Does this help?
My wife would be vegetarian by preference, but she has to eat meat because she lives with a carnivore.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
There is a rather tiresome middle ground on the truth, whcih is what faced me.
Before we married I was able to tell my wife to be that I loved a boy. I tried very hard indeed to make her understand this.
She saw it as "something in the past" and chose to ignore it.
Equally I was wholly unable to say, even to myself, "I am gay". because I wasn't able to either face it or admit it to myself. I truly thought I was in love with a girl at last and that removed the gayness. It was menat, you see, to be a passing phase. I am still waiting for it to pass.
I think many of us face that as a challenge.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
> It was menat, you see, to be a passing phase. I am still waiting for it to pass.
>
> I think many of us face that as a challenge.
Oh lord, timmy, how many memories that brought back for me!
I always knew I liked other males, but the books told me that this was often the case, and that for "most" boys it was a phase that would pass after puberty. I never felt that liking boys was "wrong", but boy! was I impatient for the phase to pass. I guess I was lucky in realising around age 20 that it wasn't gonna ....
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I don't tell my boyfriend that I find other guys more attractive than him, if I married a woman why would I do it? Being committed and loving and not brutal to your partner doesn't mean that you are living a life of lies and deception. If I loved my wife and was attracted to my wife I'd tell her as much, the fact that she may not be the primary object of my desire should be secondary. If I were to run off on my partner every time I found someone more attractive than them I'd never settle down, ever, because quite often as we become used to our partners we find them less attractive than someone "new".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
In some cases I think those patches of extreme unhappiness would be outweighed by the overall happiness. You don't need to marry a woman to be "without sin" in the mormon church, you can remain single. For some people that is preferable to denying their spiritual experiences that they have felt through the church. To deny their spiritual side would cause more pain than to deny their sexuality. Especially when family and friends are all connected through shared spirituality.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
It's that weird thing when you discover that your passing phase has been most of your life. At 26, 13 years after it switched on, I actually thought it had switched off. I found boyish girls attractive, found getting girlfriends easy because it somehow never mattered, and then fell for a very feminine girl indeed. "At last! It's gone!", but it had not. It was just suppressed by love.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can only quote from my own experience. I did not choose to be gay. If I had that would imply that I could have been hetero, and I now know I couldn’t. I am content with the idea tat God created me thus. I have no difficulty with the Church (Anglican) because I believe it abdicated its authority years ago.
I knew from about the age of seven that I was homosexual without knowing the word, even less the concept. In my late teens and twenties, even early thirties, I fought being gay and eventually lost, and may have made one or two people unhappy on the way. That was the big mistake of my life; on the other hand times were different then. I could have had the sack for being gay.
I then married my career, another mistake for despite all the fidlity I gave it, it divorced me, but at least that gave me freedom. Finally I could openly admit to myself that I was gay and set out to enjoy the fact and my life in a limited way. I have never felt any compulsion to come out - that would just hurt other people without doing anything for me. I am content being out to my internet friends; I can express myself freely on the internet.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cossie
|
|
On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
|
|
|
Perhaps I can explain the significance of genetics a little better than I did in the above post.
As Timmy said, the problems are of orientation are complex, and there hasn't been anything like enough research to provide any definitive answers.
With every respect to Ken, I'm not sure that a valid parallel can be drawn between homosexuality and vertigo and other phobias such as agrophobia, claustrophobia, arachnophobia or, for that matter, genuine homophobia. Phobias have a pattern which is increasingly well understood; nowadays many can be cured by positive enforcement (the opposite of the infamous aversion therapy).
Sexual orientation seems to involve a different mechanism, but it is a mechanism which is far from unique. I'm by no means an expert, but I gather that a number of genetic conditions follow a similar pattern. A good example is schizophrenia. The likelihood of developing the illness is much increased if there is or has been another sufferer in the immediate family. It must therefore involve a significant genetic factor. The twin studies mentioned in my previous post show that the same is true of gender orientation. However, schizophrenia has been studied in greater depth than sexual orientation, and although there is still much to be discovered the conclusion, expressed in simple terms, is that a predisposition to develop the illness is genetically inherited, but the illness will not develop unless some kind of biological trigger is operated. Those who carry the gene but do not develop the illness may still pass on the gene to a child who will then be at risk of developing the illness.
Obviously I am not suggesting that same-sex orientation is an illness; all reputable medical authorities reject that proposition absolutely. Nonetheless, the mechanism of transmission from generation to generation may well be similar, and this proposition doesn't seem to contradict any serious research thus far published. So, as a working hypothesis, it seems reasonable to suggest that there is a genetic factor (which may be passed on by a 'carrier', or indeed a succession of 'carriers', who are themselves heterosexual) and an environmental factor, which must be triggered before same-sex orientation will develop. By 'environmental' I simply mean not genetic; triggering doesn't involve any conscious control by the individual.
The situation is of course confused by social pressures, which lead some of those with a same-sex orientation to repress their sexuality - sometimes with disastrous psychological results - and this makes genetic tracing much more difficult. But the overwhelming balance of probability is that same-sex orientation is wholly outside of the control of the individual; no-one can 'make' another person gay - it just happens.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cossie
|
|
On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
|
|
|
... and, in theory, I can't argue against what he says.
The trouble is, these decisions tend to be taken at a time when we lack the benefit of relevant experience.
Like Timmy, I genuinely thought I could change, and - as Saben suggests - I didn't think it any more necessary to discuss my previous same-sex relationships than to discuss my (very few) previous heterosexual relationships. And my marriage HAS worked; I have two twenty-something children of whom I an immensely proud, and still have a great relationship with my wife. When I married I gave a commitment, and I certainly never considered breaking it just because I eventually realised that being gay wasn't going to go away. But when that realisation came, I DID feel the need to explain my feelings.
I guess it's just another reminder that life is rarely black and white; there are countless shades of grey. We just have to live with it - it's what gives each of us our individuality.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
…when you leave out your best line?
>I knew from about the age of seven that I was homosexual without knowing the word, even less the concept.< It's just that while my mates got interested in bulges in blouses, I preferred bulges in trousers.
And just what is 'fidlity' ?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In retrospect, I often wonder how I could be so stupid, like hoping that I could change, that "it" would eventually go away. But, at the same time, I see no reason for me to dig myself down into depression and bitterness. Like you, Cossie and Timmy, I have children (both of them are over thirty now), and grandchildren, all of whom I love deeply and am endlessly proud of.
Life has many colours, some very bright ones and others which are shades of grey. I try to keep the the bright ones close to my heart and remember the good things they represent. And even though I am getting older now, there are new ones added. But after having come to terms with myself, at last, I now wish I could pick up if only a little bit of what I have missed, like having someone to to cuddle - with no deception and pretence.
(Cossie, did you check your email?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
huwar
|
|
Getting started |
Registered: May 2004
Messages: 13
|
|
|
Matthew, I hope you have the opportunity to see and ponder these posts there is a wealth of experience there. There are many ways to skin a cat. I was one of those who knew his orientation at age eight. Fortunately, I grew up in a time and place when homosexuality was tolerated. A classmate "married" Will and me when we were fifteen, other classmates witnessed. Death ended the union seven years later and I spent eighteen years looking for a replacement only to wed a spinster and long time friend, companion, and comforter. After forty some years we are parents and grandparents and living happily, but I am still gay and it is all right. I don't think I would be happy if I had to pretend I am not gay. Gay or straight, treasure your integrity.
don't ask the way to peace; peace is the way
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cossie
|
|
On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
|
|
|
No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
