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Happy 4th everybody. Not just the US citizens, but all those who celebrate freedom.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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What's all this about the Fourth of July? Didn't it involve some rebellious colonials who lacked the intelligence to understand that Britain Knows Best?
Rule, Britannia! Britannia waives the rules!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Durn and here I thought it was some guys who decided they didnt want to learn the rules of cricket.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but they were so dumb that when they tried to play they invented baseball by mistake.
We should have left 'em to the Dutch and French - they obviously weren't able to cope with proper civilisation!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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But proper Civilization was so boring and cricket had all those rules.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Tut tut, Brian - Grandfather ain't taught you proper. Cricket has no rules, but laws. But then the Caledonians never did embrace the game.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel wrote:
Tut tut, Brian - Grandfather ain't taught you proper.
I say, old chap, steady on. Saying things like that just isn't cricket don't you know. 
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Brian said,
>Happy 4th everybody. Not just the US citizens, but all those who celebrate freedom.
Freedom from Great Britain?
I'm happy to remain a British subject, thank you very much!
David
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LOL Deeej!!!! You are a free British citizen, but there was a time when British citizens werent free. Lets see, didnt the British fight a war to gain the Magna Carta, which by the way is where our civil rights come from.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Some bigger nasty men than Bad King John took him to Runnymede Island, not far from here, and threatened to beat the living daylights out of him if he didn't sign the document.
Loads of oddities about this alleged "one document". Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Yes, British subjects (not citizens, really) weren't always free in the modern sense of the word, but then none of us are really "free" in the absolute sense now, either. It all comes in degrees, and in Britain the degrees came about over a long period of introduction and improvement, whereas they were enshrined in the American constitution much more quickly (because, being a young country, America could choose the best bits out of the legal systems that already existed).
I've nothing against America having an Independence Day, but it would be a bit odd for an Englishman to celebrate it as a day of "freedom" as the day has no particular significance to our ancestors; or as a day of independence when his country has never had independence from anything (except, possibly, the Romans). It might even be considered a bit unpatriotic, given that the independence that others celebrate is escaping from the authority of the British Crown. And I, personally, am happy to put up with it for the moment (QEII, at least).
>Lets see, didnt the British fight a war to gain the Magna Carta, which by the way is where our civil rights come from.
Not a war, no. The barons were unhappy with the way King John was running the country, started an uprising, and forced King John to sign it. Perhaps the only good thing to come out of his reign.
David
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The idea is your not under the thumb of a tyranical despot, just greedy politicians. lol
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Oh and the 4th of July isnt only a celibration of independance, but the birth of our nation.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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That's one advantage of living in a young country, I suppose -- you get an extra national holiday! Apart from bank holidays, we don't have many national holidays over here. Unfortunately, no-one can remember when this country was founded, so we can't celebrate its birthday.
I suppose we could celebrate 1 August 1800, when the UK officially came into being, but that would be a bit feeble, since England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland had been unified under the same king for a long time before that. And, anyway, as any fule kno, England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are all ancient countries, and the last 200 years represents only a tiny fraction of their history.
David
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You know its odd. As much as I like my counrty im making plans to school in britain and live there a while. I could apply for citizenship and that would give me dual citizenship. Im finding I relate to the British much better than I do people from my own country.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... any more of that sloppy language and aal toss me caber at ye!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Btw - glad to see that Deeej hasn't given up being pedantic. We British must maintain our historic traditions!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Like our great late Benjamine Franklin said, "Fart Proudly"
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually,,,,,,,
The Fourth of July is a celebration of our declaration of independance....
Hence the name....... Independance Day....... July 4, 1776......
Which marked the approved separation from the Brittish tyrany inflicted upon us at that time......
The war for our independance continued through to April 11, 1783 when Congress ratified the proclaimation ending hostilities.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Cossie, you can toss your caber at me any time.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Citizenship is complex here. A visa to study will not confer residency rights, nor will a working vacation visa (which does not confer the right to be a student). You have to make sure you apply for the right thing.
After 5 years of lawful residency you may apply for citizenship (I think), or certainly permanent residency.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, yes -- that's why it would be inappropriate for a red-blooded Briton to celebrate it!
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My point was that it is a celebration of separation not freedom....
Freedom was a later result....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I didn't realise that, but I should have. Obvious with hindsight, because a war followed the declaration.
I wonder how many US citizens also think it celebrated the actual independence rather than the start of a struggle.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Just think if that British soilder hadnt fired that shot at Lexington.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Whoever fired the first shot the fact remains that the Brittish were ordered to dispell any uprisings and the Patriot militia was not about to back down....
Check this out....
http://www.earlyamerica.com/shot_heard.htm
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Yes Marc, obviously a "Declaration" of Independence. And you need to realize that there were a great number of those colonists who did not wish to be independent from Britain at the time as it was also protecting the colonies from being taken over by other countries. I would remind anyone who would think that the British were not always thought of as being oppresive towards the colonies but protected it from the French for quite a while.
If you look at the whole thing objectively (if that is possible for either Americans or British) the whole Independence thing arose from a number of things the British imposed on the colonies which were considered to be oppressive by many, including some taxes etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy with the fact the US did become independent from England, but I think most of us Americans do not have any kind of dislike of the British. I think that since the early 1900's or maybe earlier, America began to think of England as being a close relative. Even though the French helped the US gain its independence more than any other country (maybe the only country to help I think) we have felt a sort of kinship with the British as long as I can remember, being of course that I am only almost 67 years old. In school when we were taught about the "War of Independence" we were always told it was a regrettable thing that it did happen. If Americans had to choose up sides I am sure most would pick England without even thinking much about it; at least in my generation. I dont know if many would even think about Canada before they would mention Great Britain.
Now don't pick on me for using Great Britian and England and British as I feel they are one in the same. I am sure there are a lot of distinctions but realize I am not meaning anything by using those terms sort of interchangeably. Remember I am one of those rebellious colonists!! LOL
Ken
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A lot of how Americans are comes from the nature of the colonies. the colonist had to pretty much make their own way and this fostered a sense of pride and the ability to acomplish things on our own. Altho most colonist were British, they looked to themselves in stead of the king to get things done. Americans has always been rebellious. I guess its in the nature of things. I think its ok to take pride in ones country. The U.S. flag, in the olympics or any other game or gathering is never tipped. This occured at one of the Olympics (cant remember which one)(I do know that John L. Sullivan was there). As the athelets passed befor the head of state (I assume whatever country was hosting the Olympics) The nations flags were tipped as they passed the head of state. the American flag bearer was told by the American athelets, that if he tipped the flag he would be in the hospital that night. when the speaches were made, one of the athletes pointed at the American flag and told the head of state "This flag tips for no earthly king".
because of a lot of bigoted crooked politicians, Americans have lost a lot of the pride in their nation. there was a time when Americans minded their own business and the rest of the world took the attatude that one Japanese admiral said "Dont wake the sleeping giant"
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Hi Ken,
>Now don't pick on me for using Great Britian and England and British as I feel they are one in the same.
I wouldn't have done, except "feeling" they're the same doesn't make them the same! Perhaps it's a just poor choice of words -- but it sounds like you can't be bothered to look up the differences.
It's quite simple, really:
The country is the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Any other names associated with it are simply subdivisions of the country, and aren't officially countries in their own right (though they may have been once).
There are two main geographic components of the United Kingdom:
* Great Britain (sometimes just "Britain"), the biggest island in the British Isles (and that island only)
* Northern Ireland, the top part of the smaller one
Great Britain can be subdivided again:
* Scotland (top)
* Wales (the west side)
* England (the rest)
These used to be countries in their own right, but now they are just administrative and culturally distinct areas (constituent countries, but not "actual" countries) -- a bit like American states, now, though they've got a lot more history behind them.
British is used to refer to anyone who lives on the big island, be they English, Scottish or Welsh. Not usually Irish, but sometimes Northern Irish people are lumped in under "British" because there is no adjective that means "from the UK".
Welsh refers just to people from Wales.
Scottish refers just to people from Scotland.
English refers just to people from England.
Irish refers to people from the island of Ireland, and can refer to Northern Irish, or Southern Irish people, or both, depending on context.
One thing, however, is for sure: When you're referring to the country as a whole, it is never right to lump everyone together as "English", any more than it would be to call all Americans "Texans" simply because Texas is the largest US state, and/or your president happens to hail from there. As a rule of thumb, when referrring to Anglo-American relations, just refer to the country as "Great Britain" (the big island), "The United Kingdom" (the official country name) and its people as "British", thereby leaving England out of it. It's much harder to go wrong that way.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Errrrrrr........
Texas is NOT the largest U. S. state.......
Errrrrrr........ That would be Alaska.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I thought it was Iraq. Or perhaps Canada. But Texas SAYS it is the biggest
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No...... not Iraq......
Canada...... They didn't pass the test......
And does Bush think?
I think not.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Apologies for the small inaccuracy there -- I forgot about Alaska. Perhaps I should have used California instead, because while it's not the biggest state by area, it certainly is by population, and it has very high international exposure (via the film industry). Alaska, while large, has one of the smaller populations.
My point still stands, though -- it's absurd to refer to all the inhabitants of a country using a description that only fits some of them, and it would be doubly absurd to use logic to justify it that is incorrect!
David
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Deeej, I think it goes even deeper than you suggest.
If you identify primarily as coming from England, you are an Englishman (/woman), or English.
If you identify primarily as coming from Scotland, you are a Scot, or Scottish.
However, if you identify as coming from Great Britain, you are British: if from Wales, Welsh (Welshman being a label applied by the English - and what about Welsh women?)
There's a profound different between being identified as "a" something ("He's a gay", for example) which tends to suggest that such is the most important thing about you, and having an adjective applied ("He's gay", or "He's an out gay man", for example), which - to me at least - suggests that it's a characteristic only relevant in a particular discussion.
That's one of the reasons I get a bit worked up when (generally Americans) refer to me as a "Brit" - while I am happy to proclaim my Britishness, it is only a very small part of my identity. The other reason, of course, is that to be called a "Brit" is often seen as derogatory in the same sense as to call all Americans "yanks" is.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Well then, I hear the name Yank or Yankee being used on the BBC shows all the time. Course Yankee only refers to the people who live north of the Mason Dixon line. ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Hi NW,
I wasn't thinking of it from the point of view of a person who identifies primarily as coming from a particular area. I was simply trying to come up with some generalisations so that Ken would not make obvious mistakes, like referring to England, or the English, when he meant the country as a whole. (Or, worse, referring to someone from Scotland, Wales, or Ireland as English.)
I'm aware of the difference between being something and being a something, and I agree with you that it is rude for another person to refer to someone using a noun without checking whether they identify with it first. But this is not something confined to the British -- it can happen just about everywhere in the world, especially where national borders have changed over the years.
Personally, I identify as coming from the United Kingdom (my father being English and my mother's family being Irish), which means I don't really have any good noun or adjective to apply to myself.
David
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Hi Brian,
Out of interest, which shows?
I can't say I can remember ever hearing the word "Yank" on the mainstream BBC. Then again, I don't think you Yanks, er, people geographically situated within the boundaries of the United States of America, get British television until it's several decades out of date...
David
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Im not sure how out of date the shows are. We have satillite and we get BBC America. I know that the Dr. Who series is about 3 mounths behind. In not sure when the name Yankee originated. I know there were Yankees and Torries durning the revelution. Southerners here refer to northeners as Yankees (derogatory) and southeners refered to as Rednecks.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Would it just be best to refer to you guys as UK for short so I dont have to type as much? I hesitated to use that as I thought it could offend someone.
Ken
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In my case (my generation) I think that if you were to watch a lot of the movies made in this country during the 50's that concerned WWII you would find a sort of stereotype British soldier referring to Americans as Yanks. I never thought of it as any sort of derogatory thing at all. I think that word seems to date back a lot to WWI and there were even songs which could have been the reason it started as I can remember one called, "The Yanks Are Coming". It might have even been in some American musical from that era but I am not really too sure.
The term Yank seems to me is used more by people living in Great Britian in referring to Americans (pardon me if you actually don't ever do that) and the term Yankees was normally associated in my mind with the way southerners would refer to those in the US above the mason dixon-line as Brian has suggested. In the war between the states this was a common thing for the south to call northern soldiers Yankees and the northern soldiers to call those in the south "Rebs" or "Rebels" or Confederate Soldiers if being more nice in tone.
In thinking about this I think that perhaps the term Yankee might predate WWI and come from naval terminology in the 1800's. It could be it dates from the War of 1812 but I am not sure.
Ken
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