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These are snippets from this (Tuesday) afternoon's news updates on the web. Hey! Did you know that you are a "corrupt animal"?
As preparations for the World Pride Jerusalem Parade were in the final stretch, an anti-parade flier distributed in Jerusalem's ultra-orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim as well as other neighborhoods on Tuesday, offered an 20,000 shekels reward for "anyone who causes the death of one of the people of Sodom and Gemorrah," referring to homosexuals taking part in the parade. It was suggested in the flier to use homemade Molotov cocktails, and instructions for how to make them were provided in the flier. The explosives are nicknamed "Shliesel Special", in honor of the Haredi [ultra-orthodox fundamentalist] protester who disrupted the Jerusalem Pride Parade last year by stabbing three marchers. The letter appeals to residents of the capital: "don't let them teach our children their impure ways."
The letter goes on to say, "During this parade, 300,000 corrupt animals are anticipated to march through the holy city of Jerusalem, waiting avidly for the chance to put themselves on display before our children and our sacred Torah. They will try as hard as they can to defile as many of our innocent children as they can."
Gay Jerusalem city councilman Sa'ar Netanel said in response that "this is a worrying escalation and a license to kill. It needs to shock and appall everyone and cause everyone to ask himself whether he wants Jerusalem to take on the image of extremists who forget all humanity or to take on the image of marchers who only ask for patience, tolerance and pluralism."
Other "official" flyers, hung all over the neighborhood, appeal to the Haredi community as well: "anyone with the ability to do so has the duty to do everything he can to smash the jaws of evil in any way that he can." The document was signed by the leading rabbis of the Haredi community.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Yes what a horrible thing for someone to do. Intolerance at it's extreme. I may not always be so happy to be a gay person, but I couldn't imagine having such a hatred of anyone. I would find it hard to hate someone I knew closely who had done some harm to me, much less someone I didn't even know.
I find it so hard to comprehend how someone could proclaim to be religious or believe in God at all and then ask for others to kill someone because of their sexuality. God must, indeed, cry a lot when He looks down.
Ken
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Im not aware of Hebrew law IN Isarel, but here that would be comspiring to commit murder. Those Rabbis could be tried under the conspiricy law.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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PEOPLE OF SODOM AND GEMORRAH ! ! ! !!!! ! !
Jesus H. Christ ! ! ! !
Oh......
make that Holy Moses ! ! ! !
I know I'm old.......
but i'm not that old........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It seems that fundamentalists of all religions have more in common with each other than with anyone else. I think it was you who said that to me, JFR.
As time passes we seem to see imbecile cleaving unto imbecile.
N-one can control how I think. No-one.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No no one can control how you think.......
but they do effect how you think.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Or what I think about.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Nothing more than baseless hatred
I wasn't planning to take part in the Gay Pride parade until Orthodx rabbis started desecrating God's name
Tzvi Graetz
Recently we have heard and read of more and more rabbis who have come out fiercely against next month's planned Gay Pride parade in Jerusalem. Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar made a pact with the Pope against the "terrible march of abomination," Rabbi David Batzri has said that the recent outbreak of bird flu was divine punishment for the campaign for gay rights," and members of the Jerusalem ultra-Orthodox beit din (rabbinic court) have called on followers to wage no less than a "holy war to block the disgrace."
Even Rabbi Yaakov Meidan, who has been considered "moderate" since signing a call for dialogue with Prof. Ruth Gavison , said that the event would be the greatest desecration of God's name since the days of idol worship during the first temple period, when parents sacrificed their children to the god Molech.
The demand: To get thousands of protesters to bodily stop the march by standing in its way, while using the harshest of terms for a minority population. Has it really come to this? This is Torah? Is this the way to bring people close to Torah?
Religious desecration
To remind: The first temple was destroyed because of three sins: idol worship, sexual immorality and wanton bloodshed. I want to warn that the way in which these rabbis have chosen to express their opposition to both the parade and homosexuals themselves will lead to bloodshed, as it did last year .
Therefore, their statements are the greatest imaginable desecration of Gods name that has ever happened in Israel. They are much worse than the desire of a particular group to march legally through the streets of Jerusalem.
This Thursday we will mark the fast day of 17 B'Tammuz , in commemoration of the day the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem and began the process of destroying the second temple. That temple was destroyed because of baseless hatred.
Sexual impropriety?
Religious extremists, some of whom have signed their name to far-reaching social contracts preaching tolerance and respect (apparently only for their opinions and ways of life), claim gays and lesbians commit the sin of sexual impropriety.
We can certainly debate that question on a halachic (Jewish law) level, just as we can debate the Torah's attitude towards changing times, or the specifics of the Torahs' prohibition of gay sex (are all sexual acts prohibited by members of the same sex, or is the prohibition limited to one, specific act?). This debate is relevant and important, but not to the issue currently at hand.
The issue at hand is the development of a pure hatred for a sector of our society simply because they are not like us. All the classic elements for baseless hatred are present. Jewish tradition warns us about this time after time.
Lessons from last year
Last year the pride parade ended with actual bloodshed, when an Orthodox man stabbed several participants and almost killed them – for the same reasons that the honorable rabbis now look to block this years festivities.
I had no intention of participating in this years pride march because I am not part of that community. But now I certainly am considering it, if only to say: Enough desecration of God's name in the name of religion! Stop developing hatred, as many rabbis in our midst are doing.
Rabbi Tzvi Graetz is the rabbi of Kehillat Shevet Ahim (Conservative) in Jerusalem's Gilo neighborhood
Copyright © Yedioth Internet.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273833,00.html
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Most of what I have read in the past suggests that the law in relation to sexual orientation is liberal, or is at least liberally interpreted.
Certainly the exhortations to extreme violence would be illegal in the UK, and as the threat is real and specific I believe that firm action would be taken against those responsible, even though religious leaders have in the past sometimes enjoyed greater tolerance than they deserved.
I confess that I still wonder whether 'designer confrontation' is really in the best interests of the worldwide gay community. If any deaths result, I will be appalled, but not entirely surprised.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The astounding level of bigotry in the talkbacks is higher in this than in any other article I have seen there.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I'm not sure how well-known Ynetnews is known in Israel, or how much credibility it has, but it seems to me that they are implicitly agreeing with the talkbacks by not censoring or removing them. Fine, leave them if they have an intelligent point, even if it potentially upsetting to those who do not agree with it, but some of them are positively revolting. Would they leave them there if they abused any other minority (or majority, for that matter)? Religious? Racial? Women?
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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They seem not to censor any talkbacks. Other articles simply draw less fire. I think they are probably like The Daily Mail in the uk.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Maintaining comments on a board, or feedback on a web site, is inevitable. Otherwise you end up (as we have seen on this board) with nothing but GGET YOR VIGAZGARA HIER. It would hardly be difficult to skim over them before allowing them to be posted up to make sure they are not gratuitously offensive. (I couldn't find a couple of particularly nasty ones that I saw earlier -- perhaps they have removed them now. But not before they upset me.)
I notice they've left one saying "Ynet is a sewer". Distinctly ironic, because the person who posted it thinks it's the articles that make it a sewer.
I don't know very much about the political/social situation in Israel, but I can only assume that if prominent Rabbis are allowed to stand up and make bigoted and upsetting remarks, it has convinced other people that it's perfectly all right to make even worse ones on a site that doesn't seem to care if they do.
Even the Daily Mail would not publish blantantly homophobic and revolting letters on its Letters page.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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They skim them and approve them. Leave one yourself and see
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Let me see what I can do with this question and some that David posed.
The courts are very liberal concerning gay rights. The police are very liberal concerning gays in general. The general public? Well, it depends where you are. By and large people are tolerant, but in the seething dens of religious fundamentalism it's another story. Gay marriage is not (yet) recognised - there is a case before the courts right now; but gays with permanent partners have the status of "common law spouses" as far as basic rights are concerned - including inheritance and "spousal rights" under the law. You very rarely hear of gays complaining of harassment in most of the country.
For David:
Ynet is the Internet presence of Israel's most widely read newspaper. The original Ynet is, of course, in Hebrew, and the Ynet that you see is a translation into English. However, I don't think that the talkbacks are translated. Please note that most of the talkbacks - and particularly the extremely vitrioloc ones - come from outside Israel; but not all of them. Passions run high.
A bill is before the Knesset at the moment requiring all participants in talkbacks (in all the Israel-run sites) to give a valid e-mail address. The idea is to stop giving cover to vitriolic talkbacks. The religious parties are very opposed - so you can guess where most of the vitriol comes from.
One of the tactics of the fundamentalists in this "campaign" is to create such an atmosphere of 'terror' concerning the WorldPride Parade that the police will get cold feet and either ban the parade or have it moved elsewhere. Part of this 'terror' is the extreme verbal abuse in some of the talkbacks and the general incitement against "gays in Jerusalem".
While Ynet is not as disgustingly populistic as the Daily Mail, it certainly is populist. I can give you links to other more 'respectable' Israeli news sites in English if you like. Unfortunately, Ynet's greatest rival, "Ma'ariv" does not have an English version. But Ha'aretz (a quality paper centrist to left) and the Jerusalem Post (lurching right) are available. Globes too, for finance. The right-wing settlers also have an English news web presence.
Sorry for the length. I hope that I have provided the information that you wanted. Probably more than you wanted. LOL
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Thanks, JFR. That was very helpful. I'm glad to know that the unpleasant feedback on their site does not reflect the whole society, nor Ynet's usual readers.
There is of course a fine line between moderation and censorship, but I do think that some of those talkbacks could be toned down a bit before being allowed onto the site.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You do realise that there is n othing to prevent anyone at all leaving a talkback for them? I do quite often. Quiet, gentle, and assertive. Not aggressive ever. Educating people.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but what I was really wondering about was the law regarding incitement to commit a criminal offence. To cite a crude but clear example, the UK suffers as badly as any other country from the current wave of paranoia about paedophiles but, nevertheless, incitement to kill, or even to threaten to injure another person, specifically or generally, solely on the grounds that the other person is a paedophile would be a relatively serious criminal offence.
Can you commemt on this aspect?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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The talkback section on this site is as bad as Ynet
The right to be gay
By Haaretz Editorial
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/736832.html
Two significant events related to the gay community are due to take place shortly in Jerusalem, the city of three religions and the capital of Israel. Over the next few months, an expanded panel of the High Court of Justice will rule on a petition filed by five male couples who wed in Canada and are asking the Interior Ministry to register them as married. In addition, the international Gay Pride parade is slated to take place in the city next month.
The five couples are demanding that the state register them as married, just as it registers heterosexual couples as married if they are wed abroad. The gay couples are arguing that the Interior Ministry's refusal to register them as married impinges on their right to equality. The state counters that Israel does not have a "suitable legal model" for recognizing same-sex marriages.
The institution of couplehood is constantly in flux. Once, polygamy was allowed; today, it is a criminal offense. Once, homosexuality was a criminal offense; today, Western culture recognizes the right of the individual to love someone of his or her own sex. In Israel, too, there has been significant progress, and same-sex couples have been recognized as partners in common-law marriages for the sake of issues such as financial agreements, inheritance and survivors' benefits.
We hope that the justices will further this trend in their ruling. But there is no doubt that ultimately, as Attorney General Menachem Mazuz has said, it is up to the Knesset to decide whether to recognize same-sex marriages, and it is up to the Knesset to legislate recognition of same-sex couplehood.
A "couplehood registration" bill that the Justice Ministry is in the process of formulating appears to be an important breakthrough in the painful and complex field of personal status. The bill allows for the registration of couples who are not permitted to get married in Israel. The advantage of the bill is that it is likely to win a majority and be passed in the Knesset, since even the religious and conservative MKs have finally understood that it is impossible to deny hundreds of thousands of citizens the right to be officially recognized as a couple.
Same-sex couples also have this right, and it would have been appropriate that they too would be part of the new arrangement. Even if political constraints prevent this at the moment, the bill will pave the way for more enlightened legislation in the future.
As for the parade, which is slated to take place in central Jerusalem on August 10, it is harshly opposed by the ultra-Orthodox and religious - who make up most of the Jewish population of the city - and representatives of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The arguments raised in criticism of the parade are intolerant, and callously insult homosexuals and lesbians.
One can argue that homosexuals and lesbians should also display tolerance for the feelings of the religious population in Jerusalem and favor holding the parade in a secular city like Tel Aviv. But Jerusalem is not just a city that is sacred to three religions; it is also Israel's capital. A country that bans some of its citizens from holding a parade in its capital city is telling them that they are not legitimate. It is advisable to march near the city's government institutions and keep a distance from the religious sites. Such a compromise could turn the parade into a rally in the Rose Garden - across from the Knesset and the Supreme Court.
© Copyright 2006 Haaretz
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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Sorry, Cossie: I misunderstood.
The police are investigating the incident of the distribution of the fliers as a crime: incitement to murder.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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