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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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OK, I am not criticising people in ancient times. But I do wonder about the religion I was baptised into which is based upon such proud traditions.
There is more to wonder about and be perturbed about that there is to be "faithful to"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It's a pity Jesus didn't happen to say, "Disregard ye the following sections of the Old Testament, for they were decided by men and are against the spirit of God's teaching." It would have prevented so many problems.
Maybe he did, but someone censored it out. Maybe he thought it was obvious that his message of love could not apply there. Or perhaps Jesus realised there was only so much he could say and still be taken seriously.
Incidentally, has anyone else seen Russell T. Davies's/Adrian Shergold's "The Second Coming"? I finally saw it last night. Not sure if it would count as hijacking the thread to ask at this point: it is certainly thought-provoking, and the ending original, intelligent, and completely obvious in retrospect.
David
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Paul in the new testament said that the old testiment is done away with. You cannot be saved by the law, but by faith in christ who sacraficed himself for you. This is a point a lot of Christians miss. God knew man could not keep the law. If you broke even the least of the laws you were condimed to death by the law. So in order for man to survive a new testiment (or covenant) had to be made. Jesus left a high estate to become less than an angel, to sacrifice himself to pay the price for our not being able to keep the law.
As an aside. How many people know that the God of the old testiment and the God of the new testiment are not the same.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian,
>As an aside. How many people know that the God of the old testiment and the God of the new testiment are not the same.
In what way are they not the same, apart from the obvious (that the Old Testament God is not perceived to be three-for-the-price-of-one yet)?
David
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Adam and Eve spoke with the lord and walked with him. Abraham spoke with him face to face. There are other instances where he interacts with man. but God the Creator said, no man can come befor me face to face for I will not let evil come into my prescents. Who were Abraham, Noah, Adam and all these people talking to. In Genisis god is Plural (more than one). Let US make man in OUR image. There are 4 Archangels, they hold the rank of seraphim. One is Michael (One who is like God), one is Gabriel (Gods number counter or messenger), Lucifer (Bearer of the knowlege of God), There is a 4th, but I dont recall his name and he is only mentioned in an obscure Hebrew manuscript. The God of the old testiment was Michael, he is the one who loved this creation so much he was willing to die to save it. Read Daniel around the last chapters. He is describing the end times. Now remember, Daniel did not know who Jesus was cause he hadnt been born yet. But he did know him by his old Testiment name. when he talks about the abomination sitting in the holy of holies, he says "at that time shall Michael stand up, that mighty angelic prince who stands for your people". also, when Gabriel was trying to deliver a message to Daniel said "I was withheld 21 days by the evil prince that rules Persha, and if it had not been for Michael I could not have gotten thru".
In the new testiment Jesus was baptised and a voice was heard from the clouds " This is my son, with whom I am well pleased". Jesus came to reviel the creator to mankind. Man did not know of him befor. Remember the Creator said no man could come into his sight. When Jesus died, all the evil in the world, past, present, and future was poured into him. That is why he said, father oh father, why have you forsaken me. the earth shook and the curtain that separated the holy of holies from the rest of the temple was rent into, and the dead were seen to walk the face of the earth.
See, I have nothing better to do with my time.;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Well...
The Bible is full of inconsistencies -- many of them are miscopies, translation errors, sometimes mistakes from the person who wrote them, editing errors, etc. That is (or should be) freely acknowledged. It doesn't necessarily mean that they all suggest a reading outside the generally accepted one.
>The God of the old testiment was Michael
I'm sure it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible!
I'll admit straight away that I don't know much about the authenticity of the Bible -- it's one of those things that you can devote your life to, if you're so inclined -- but I've no doubt that there are 101 different ways of explaining away all those points if you need to. Did you come up with the idea on your own, or was it in a book? If so, which book?
David
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that is correct that there havebeen misinterpritations and errors. Most theologins are athiest. Ive read several books by leading theologist that put forth that idea. Its not something I came up with. It was suprising to a lot of people that when the dead sea scrolls were compaired to copies of the old testiment, very little if any errors were made. There are some books by Dr. Eugene Scott, that are extremely interesting. To me the idea makes since. to others it may not. since Im agnostic it really doenst make much difference. My point is that Christians dont study, they dont try to learn, they blindly follow what the preacher tells them. There are so many things that can be questioned in the old testiment. When Cain sleww Able he was driven out to the land of Nod, where he took unto him a wife from the people who dwell there. Kittle odd dont you think since Adam and Eve and their offspring were the only ones to exist. a lot of the old testiment was taken from the Shumerian culture.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Yes, the Adam and Eve Cain and Abel stories make no sense except as allegory. Not according to the rules of the world as we know them, anyway.
I was thinking of it from the point of view of the Bible and Christians: and neither they nor the Bible itself would admit that between them they have mixed up several different versions of God, because of course there is and only ever has been One True God. Beyond that, though, I have no problem with theologists coming up with alternative, often much more plausible theories. But it's a bit simplistic to say that the Christian God is not the Old Testament God -- if they weren't to begin with, they most certainly are now. (I have no idea whether what you say is true or not.)
JFR might know about this, because the Old Testament God is presumably the Jewish God, even if the teachings diverge at some point. But not presumably the Christian God.
Personally, I have always been a bit bemused how the God of the Old Testament, a jealous, vengeful and downright terrifying creature, can possibly be of the same matter as Jesus, Love personified. But apparently it's true. I've stopped worrying about it so much since I became an atheist.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I see two lots of incest - one with the Adam and Eve lot, and one with Noah and his lot. And then they tell me homosexuality is wrong.
Then I see a heavy petting session gone too far as an excuse for a religion. And then they tell me homosexuality is wrong.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Wheather its the truth or not I dont know. Its an interesting idea tho. The way I understand it Jesus came to reveil the father (creator God) unto man. In the time of the old testiment man did not know about the creator God. Michael was put in charge of the material universe. Lucifer did not rebel against the Creator, he rebeled against Michael. the Hebrew and Christian faith has become so conviluted its almost impossible to know what is and isnt. For the Hebrews it was one faith, then it started fractioning off. the Christians did the same thing.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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You have missed something Brian. I know there is a passage in which Jesus said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. He also said soemthing to the effect "I am the God of the old testament". Since I am not very good at biblical passages, I will have to take some time this week and look it up.
Ken
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Perhaps the most significant factor is that the Books of the Pentateuch were written long after the event, and thus were susceptible to a clear political agenda. I don't doubt that much of the text of these five books was handed down by oral tradition, but oral tradition is notoriously unreliable. I've made the point before, but the Jews were neither more nor less bloodthirsty that the other nations of their time.
If the basic ethic of Christianity has any validity, Jesus did indeed teach that the path to redemption was love, and love necessarily embodies forgiveness. It is, I think, impossible to reconcile the vengeful God of the Old Testament with the loving God of the New Testament, and I am therefore forced to doubt the integrity of many of the Old Testament stories.
Nevertheless, as a lifelong enthusiast of historical research, I cannot deny that the politicisation of Christianity has been responsible for the deaths of more innocent people than any other religion anywhere, at any time. Where was the forgiveness when the Spanish invaded Central and South America? Where was the forgiveness when the colonists displaced the Native Americans?
In the long-term record, we carry more guilt than today's Islamic Fundamentalists. Historically, Islam has been immeasurably more tolerant of those with alternative beliefs than the Christianity in which most of us pretend to believe.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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You are correct. Jesus was the fullfilling of the law. He died to pay the price of breaking it for all of us.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I honestly believe that a lot of the old testament was written to condone what the people had already done, or were about to do. I mean it wouldn't look very good if everything they did went against god.
Ironically I just read some of that passage somewhere else recenlty and I cannot remember where now. It was probably in the book I just read Kingdom COming about the rise of Christian Fundemantalist Nationallism.
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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Originally Judaism was composed of many gods, war gods, love gods, blah blah blah fertility whatever else people needed to pray about. The creating of just one god didn't come until much later when Hebrews took every god they worshipped and gave "the one true god" all of there characteristics.
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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Hey cossie I have a pretty simplistic view of the bible. I have come to the conclusion after gaining status as a geezer that I am able to espouse my views and claim to be a "Sage", although a Sage with a eccentric view of things.
I made the conclusion that "Yes, the bible was a bunch of stories with moral and ethical objectives which were passed orally on for centuries before they were put down in print". I don't doubt that there were possibly some alterations to the stories as time went on, but I also know that some oral stories have been passed for generations "word for word" and that tribes living apart for a long time still told the story the same as some other tribe had done it. It is not impossible to do, but maybe a bit more than our impatient society could dream of being able to do now!
I also think that the purpose of the stories was an effort by God to get his people to live in a way which would afford them peace and goodness. He tried a lot of methods to cause people to accept his wisdom of how they should live and interact with each other. Now of course He couldn't "make it happen" as we all had free will. If God makes you do something, do you still have free will? My engineering, logical mind says emphatically, NO! So this was a problem for God wasn't it? He gave us the 10 commandments but He couldn't force us to go along with what He said would work, and we have shown conclusively that our way surely doesn't. We are arrogant in the highest degree and think we know it all. Scientists will tell you, if they are being honest, that the more we seem to know, the more we know that we know even less than we thought we did.
Anyway, after a long time of seening that we were not going to obey Him in an unconditional way, God brought us Jesus and gave us a way to be forgiven for all we did. Yes, another simplistic view I agree! But most of what I came to think about God came from reading the New Testament and particularly noting the things said by Jesus. (yeah I know there can be some errors in what was written down as to what was really said) Also I know there were books written which were excluded from the New Testament and I will now go on to see what is written in them. It will not alter my belief that Christ existed and said at least most of what is attributed to Him.
I don't care is Christ was married or not, nor that he could have been gay if that is the case. It is not pertainent to me in deciding to beleive or not. I stopped believe that God was making everything happen in the world, both good and bad, and that gave me a lot of peace. I could not reconcile all the bad things happening with a God who was in absolute control of things. It made sense to me to realize that man was shaping his own destiny and making his own decisions for right or wrong with no help from God; we all have free will. God only points out to us what those choices are and what the consequences will certainly be.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And the deity inspired slaughter and rape above?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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To the best of my knowledge, Tim, the old testament recounted stories of how man lived and what he did in spite of what God tried to get him to do. I presume you are referring to places in the bible that tell of God's vengence being done against those who were in open rebellion to Him.
I may be wrong but I dont think there was a point where God directed those who believed in Him to do rape etc. I suppose you could say He condoned some of the things that occured since He did help His chosen people to win some of their wars agianst others. Yet, we are talking about stories aren't we? I see that many who would treat some of the stories in the bible with ridicule might then see wome of them as true as true could be when it would show something of a point they wish to promote.
I think that most of what I seemed to get out of the stories were that there were lessons to be learned and that we were being told by God that we could not get away with violating his laws. There were always going to be consequences if we did. So the stories reflected attempts to show this. I don't see the need to be overly critical myself, but then I just figure that I get the lesson God is trying to show and I wont need to be kicked in the nads to get it.
I am way far from obeying all those laws as are most of us I would think. I am the first to admit I am not at the head of the line when it comes to being a good person, but I try.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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>Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
That seems pretty specific to me.
So, basically, this deity is an excuse for rape and pillage
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Through the centuries church leaders, often in companionship with kings and other shades of royalty, have been forcing additional "payments" on us, corrupting the whole idea of Jesus fulfilling the law.
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So basically they slew their enemies and I dont think that would include a command to rape and pilage.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And it says very clearly that it did include that command. Now the bible is supposed to be "inerrant". So reconclie that with a deity that is meant to be "love".
"God loves me, but he hates you".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy I don't know what religion you were baptized into, or why this would be a proud tradition of it.
I support you being perturbed & wondering rather than being simply faithful. You obviously have legitimate and obvious concerns about the carnage commanded to be done in the Bible verse you quote.
The Bible, if inerrant & inspired of God indicates that God is Love. So we know that any acts He does will be done in Love. Even if God punishes people for disobedience it is done in Love.
God's Laws are Love also, an expression of His very nature. So any transgression of His Law is evil & will bring bad consequences. God seeks good for all mankind.
God knows the heart of all mankind, and if a specific people need to be punished or eliminated entirely it is God's specific right to determine & do so. If a people are evil, corrupting His people & His plan then He has every right to adjust the circumstances.
Such was the case you cited in Numbers 31.7. God will ultimately destroy all evil. He will not tolerate it forever. The scripture cited is yet another example of God's will being done.
Again, all God does is in love & for the ultimate good. All humans will be later resurrected and have a chance for a better life apart from the evil influences in this present world. So all the people slain will live again, it was not their ultimate end.
I believe the following is an accurate portrayal of the context & circumstances surrounding the actions indicated in Numbers 31:7. It is taken directly from the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary: Num 31:1-2 -
>Num_31:1-54. The Midianites spoiled and Balaam slain.
>the Lord spake unto Moses, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites — a semi-nomad people, descended from Abraham and Keturah, occupying a tract of country east and southeast of Moab, which lay on the eastern coast of the Dead Sea. They seem to have been the principal instigators of the infamous scheme of seduction, planned to entrap the Israelites into the double crime of idolatry and licentiousness [Num_25:1-3, Num_25:17, Num_25] by which, it was hoped, the Lord would withdraw from that people the benefit of His protection and favor. Moreover, the Midianites had rendered themselves particularly obnoxious by entering into a hostile league with the Amorites (Jos_13:21). The Moabites were at this time spared in consideration of Lot (Deu_2:9) and because the measure of their iniquities was not yet full. God spoke of avenging "the children of Israel" [Num_31]; Moses spoke of avenging the Lord [Num_31], as dishonor had been done to God and an injury inflicted on His people. The interests were identical. God and His people have the same cause, the same friends, and the same assailants. This, in fact, was a religious war, undertaken by the express command of God against idolaters, who had seduced the Israelites to practise their abominations.
By the way, I don't see rape mentioned anywhere in the verses quoted or in any similar action commanded by God for His purposes. Rape is certainly against His Laws & Nature. In later posts in this thread you repeatedly add "rape" which is inaccurate and misleading. >"And the deity inspired slaughter and rape above?" "So, basically, this deity is an excuse for rape and pillage"
Human death has always been used to stop human corruption, degradation & sin. God planned from the beginning that all humans would die. Our imperfect lives cannot continue indefinitely. We are only here for a while to hopefully love learn & grow & then we "rest with our fathers" awaiting the next step in God's plan, the resurrection.
I have avoided quoting Bible verses to support every point here, but will if asked about specific concepts.
Thank you for your time. Teddy ( :
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Handyman wrote:
> Timmy I don't know what religion you were baptized into, or why this would be a proud tradition of it.
Church of England. Anglican.
>
> I support you being perturbed & wondering rather than being simply faithful. You obviously have legitimate and obvious concerns about the carnage commanded to be done in the Bible verse you quote.
>
> The Bible, if inerrant & inspired of God indicates that God is Love. So we know that any acts He does will be done in Love. Even if God punishes people for disobedience it is done in Love.
>
> God's Laws are Love also, an expression of His very nature. So any transgression of His Law is evil & will bring bad consequences. God seeks good for all mankind.
That is just not right. You can not justify murder, and rape, and enslavery by saying "It's OK, God Loves You"
You have been hoodwinked by priests
> God knows the heart of all mankind, and if a specific people need to be punished or eliminated entirely it is God's specific right to determine & do so. If a people are evil, corrupting His people & His plan then He has every right to adjust the circumstances.
>
> Such was the case you cited in Numbers 31.7. God will ultimately destroy all evil. He will not tolerate it forever. The scripture cited is yet another example of God's will being done.
You have to be joking! God can destroy in a humane manner. Thsi lot were lined up and slaughtered by Moses and his lot. And then it was justified after the event
> Again, all God does is in love & for the ultimate good. All humans will be later resurrected and have a chance for a better life apart from the evil influences in this present world. So all the people slain will live again, it was not their ultimate end.
They never got the chance to do the repent bit. Instead they were murdered in terror. This was their holocaust.
>
> I believe the following is an accurate portrayal of the context & circumstances surrounding the actions indicated in Numbers 31:7. It is taken directly from the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary: Num 31:1-2 -
>
> >Num_31:1-54. The Midianites spoiled and Balaam slain.
>
> >the Lord spake unto Moses, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites — a semi-nomad people, descended from Abraham and Keturah, occupying a tract of country east and southeast of Moab, which lay on the eastern coast of the Dead Sea. They seem to have been the principal instigators of the infamous scheme of seduction, planned to entrap the Israelites into the double crime of idolatry and licentiousness [Num_25:1-3, Num_25:17, Num_25] by which, it was hoped, the Lord would withdraw from that people the benefit of His protection and favor. Moreover, the Midianites had rendered themselves particularly obnoxious by entering into a hostile league with the Amorites (Jos_13:21). The Moabites were at this time spared in consideration of Lot (Deu_2:9) and because the measure of their iniquities was not yet full. God spoke of avenging "the children of Israel" [Num_31]; Moses spoke of avenging the Lord [Num_31], as dishonor had been done to God and an injury inflicted on His people. The interests were identical. God and His people have the same cause, the same friends, and the same assailants. This, in fact, was a religious war, undertaken by the express command of God against idolaters, who had seduced the Israelites to practise their abominations.
>
> By the way, I don't see rape mentioned anywhere in the verses quoted or in any similar action commanded by God for His purposes. Rape is certainly against His Laws & Nature. In later posts in this thread you repeatedly add "rape" which is inaccurate and misleading. >"And the deity inspired slaughter and rape above?" "So, basically, this deity is an excuse for rape and pillage"
If you imagine for a minute that rape was not a part of this, then you do not understand the weapons of war. Rape was lways used and is used today as a weapon of war and subjugation. What do you think is about to happen to the female virgins?
> Human death has always been used to stop human corruption, degradation & sin. God planned from the beginning that all humans would die. Our imperfect lives cannot continue indefinitely. We are only here for a while to hopefully love learn & grow & then we "rest with our fathers" awaiting the next step in God's plan, the resurrection.
Death by the hand of MAN is by the hand of MAN. It is a crime against nature and thus against God
>
> I have avoided quoting Bible verses to support every point here, but will if asked about specific concepts.
>
> Thank you for your time. Teddy ( :
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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pete1990
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Getting started |
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 7
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You know what? This is bullshit. Can I say that here? Heck, I can. It's bullshit!
I've lived with this crap all my life. I've had every sermon you can imagine, every bit of fire and brimstone preaching, not just sunday morning but sunday night, wednesday night and all kind of bible classes, and they say its all justifiable because "our" god loves everyone. Except, of course, everyone in every other church and everyone who is different. Those he hates.
So that's me, then. God hates me. I'm hated and evil and will be shunned, suitable for death because some old dude wrote this bullshit and the majority of the world take it on faith and believe it. You can spout all these verses at me but they're just words, man. Just words. They don't help.
Dude, they were raped. It's obvious they were raped. They sure didn't get asked just to serve coffee!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Not quite in your words, but I'm with you.
One such exhortation to rape and pillage overturns every last "God is love" statement for me. And there is not just one.
Look at: "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)
This is like Blair's spin doctors trying to put a good gloss on invading Iraq. Which was, of course, predicted in Numbers 11:1 "And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp."
These simply overturn "God is love". This deity is a vengeful, ill tempered, vile, and incompoetent jackass.
Remember he is meant to be all powerful? He coudl also be pleasant and polite!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No thunderbolts yet. No-one has disembowelled me, I have not bee put to the sword, nor been castrated and sold into slavery.
Obviously this is because god loves me.
Well, the one I believe in does. The one in Numbers and Isiah is a nasty little brat on an egocentric rampage.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I'm getting good at these.
It seems the basic tenet is that this vicious deity will kill you, anyone around you, and innocent passers by, if you just mistake slightly what some bloke tells you is his will.
Right. To put it very plainly, "Screw that for a game of soldiers." this lot is made up by men who should be ashamed and who should have been put to death for promulgating this unmitigated rubbish. In so many ways the bible is the proof that god cannot exist.
If he actually does, then I don't hink he takes very good care of his people. Even the chosen lot are having great neighbour problems right now. Worse, he gave them no oil!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
Honestly, sometimes I wonder while I keep coming back here. You asked a question and I took my time to give a studied & thoughtful response. I don't think I said anything to deserve the disrespect and anger that have been shown me.
I have never listened to priests so am not hoodwinked by them. I am not joking either. It took time & studying to give answer for what I believe.
Jumping to conclusions about rape, & reading things into what I and the Bible says makes me regret having taken the time to post. It feels like a slap in the face, to be frank. it hasn't helped me have a more joy
I am not as Deeej said familiar with "conservative Christian culture", except in a second hand way. I didn't grow up with it in my family & certainly disagree with it now.
It would be easy for me to feel I'd just wasted my 'breath' in answering your question but I know better. I am unwise perhaps to expose myself to needless persecution in this forum called "a place of safety".
I kept outta this religious post quite a while.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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I have always heard around my family that there are two things you dont discuss with friends, Politics and religion.;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Ted,
The problem here is one of perspective.
As a Christian, you are seeing the Bible as a whole, including the New Testament which in some cases makes redundant or irrelevant the Old Testament. I think you assume that the Old Testament entirely supports the New Testament, except where Jesus clearly provides an alternative.
Timmy is looking at these sections of the Bible on their own merits: what each verse says about God. He is ignoring Christian doctrine, the New Testament, fundamentalist teaching and conventional expectations.
Ignore everything you understand about God. Ignore all of Jesus's teaching. Take those sections on their own. Don't treat Timmy's words as preposterous simply because they don't describe the God you know. See how they apply to the words in the quotations: and then, if you still don't agree, give good reasons referring directly back to those verses he uses.
I have to say I agree with him. But if I were still a Christian, it would not actually matter to me all that much, because I would still be able to believe in Jesus on his own merits and not those of the Old Testament baggage that comes before him in the Bible, which I understand was written by men who knew no better.
As for "conservative Christian culture", if you haven't grown up in that sort of environment then I apologise: I made an incorrect assumption. However, you are still taking a very conservative outlook by assuming that the Bible is (virtually) infallible and that everything done in the Bible in the name of God must have a reason. Certainly, a lot of things after the Bible have also been done in the name of God, including the most terrible atrocities.
If you didn't get that from a priest, well -- who did you get them from? A critical person picking up the Bible for the first time would see it as it is, a collection of stories with a certain religious thread, rather than a collection of absolute truths. That is not a rhetorical question, by the way.
David
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If we couldn't discuss politics and religion here, what could we discuss?
Regrettably, for many, saying you are gay is both a political and an anti-religious statement.
David
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You got a point ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Sorry guys for getting hurt.
I am the odd man out here.
I really shouldn't even hang around here I guess.
But for wanting to be a friend to other hurting folks I wouldn't be.
I should really practice my form of 'helping' in my own or a more proper venue.
This really is timmy's place and I have received a form of help from it. I appreciate you timmy and thanks again.
We all have good points here. Carry on!
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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I owe you the respect of an answer Deeej, tho i'd rather just go on about my business..
When God 1st began calling me my mind was opened to understanding the scriptures more clearly by God's Holy Spirit. Then I heard a minister on TV who also seemed to have same understanding as I did. It wasn't actually a priest though. God's spirit elightens the mind or else I'd have no more understanding than I once did, which was zero. I'd never held or read a bible until about your age, nor was i exposed to any religious teaching until then.
I both studied the bible & was guided in study by church elders, pastors, and material they had written. I have studied to either prove or disprove quite a lot in the intevening 20 years. And it definitely isn't a blind faith.
There is a group of us who believe the same things. There is a larger group that believes nearly the same thing. Maybe close to 140 thousand people worldwide I'd guess.
It's no new church either as it can be traced directly back to the times of Christ. There is evidence of them being persecuted by the Catholic Church and called Judaisers because of their (our) habit of observing the seventh day Sabbath.
A more recent brief history of Sabbatarians can be found here or by Googling Sabbatarian History. http://www.godward.org/archives/Special%20Articles/sabbatarian_history.htm
I appreciate you all. Have a nice weekend!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Ted,
>I heard a minister on TV who also seemed to have same understanding as I did. It wasn't actually a priest though. God's spirit elightens the mind or else I'd have no more understanding than I once did, which was zero. I'd never held or read a bible until about your age, nor was i exposed to any religious teaching until then.
Hmm. A few points.
I would be cautious to say that everything I had learnt was through God's spirit. Surely you have learnt something and subsequently found it to be wrong? Does that never make you doubt it?
I find it difficult to believe that the group could be entirely distinct by the sole distinguishing feature that you keep the seventh day holy. How can you be sure that the early Christian groups with this characteristic have anything else in common with American Baptist groups?
From what I can gather, your church sounds very evangelical. I don't want to tar all churches with the same brush, but evangelical churches do tend to appeal more to the heart than the head, and on the whole rely on puritan, conservative principles rather than those that can be gained through intelligent and liberal thought. How do they reconcile such a strict reading of the Bible with lifestyle choices such as homosexual relationships? Those people who do not agree with them, do not believe, have an alternative faith? Alcohol, gambling, extra-marital sex? Scientific readings of the Bible? (We had a long argument over creationism a while back -- is that honestly part of the doctrine?)
The problem with a person belonging to any relious group and saying "I believe the same as these people," is that, far from allowing you to prove or disprove your faith, it stifles original thought and encourages you to accept what they think without question. This can apply even in fairly liberal churches such as the Church of England. And you can be hoodwinked without noticing, because you've already trained yourself to go along with other people's views on the subject.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It was, however, a doctrinaire reply. It carefully ignored all the really mad and bad things that this deity instructed people to do and majored on the wonderful and sweet things. The bad more than cancels out the good
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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To make sure people understand why I posted this at all, it is simply to make this point:
Over centuries men have stated what the "will of God" is in order to make the points they wish to make.
Things that are said to be the will of God currently include:
- AIDS
- The attacks on Israel
- The gay pride parade in Jerusalem has caused the wrath of God to descend upon Israel
- Homosexuality is bad
Yet none of these things, not a single one, are the will of God. All are created by man's incompetence or intransigence.
Deities, if they exist, do not single out just one subset of people to be saved.
Deities certainly do not order, because they do not need to order, the genocide of a race, nor the subjugation of a race. If they want it done they do it. Thunderbolts are pretty good at that.
Deities are not partisan.
The point here has not been anything other than to point this out. In previous centuries I would now have been burnt alive by men because I dared to blaspheme. Not by God. By men. Men who were carrying out "the will of God" to justify getting rid of a dissenting voice.
The real point, too, is that religion, except insofar as we advise people how to work within their religion to survive persecution for their homosexuality, has no place here at all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Re: The Book of Numbers: 
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