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Hi people. Sorry I haven't been around here, but it has just not been easy. Every time I looked in I found so many threads to read that I just gave up. I promise to return "full time" when this war is over.
There are things happening in this war about which I am not happy, but I recognize and accept that they are necessary for the survival of my country and my people. Israel has tried several times to ease tensions and act peacefully towards her enemies. Sometimes that has paid off well: we are at peace with both Egypt and Jordan and both countries try to be helpful in the ongoing conflict. I no longer think that the conflict is between Israel and the Palestinians: it is between Israel and fanatic Islamic extremists - Hamas ( which means Islamic Resistance Movement) in the south and Hizb'ullah ( which means God's Party) in the north (both aided and abetted by Syria and Iran).
When the Islamists first started crossing the border from Lebanon into Israel, Israel pushed them out of Southern Lebanon with the help of the local Christians (Lebanon is a multi-religious country). Israel occupied Southern Lebanon for nearly two decades simply in order to prevent the Islamists from attacking our northern cities and villages. World public opinion did not like that, so six years ago Israel vacated Southern Lebanon and left a United Nations patrol unit (UNIFIL) to guard the border for us.
Immediately, Hizb'ullah re-entered Southern Lebanon and UNIFIL did absolutely nothing to prevent them setting up there a state within a state and stockpiling weapons sent by Iran via Syria to an inordinate degree. (On more than one occasion it was proven that soldiers from Fiji had collaborated with Hizb'ullah.) It is estimated that Hizb'ullah has more than 15,000 short and long range rockets at its disposal, weapons which can reach most parts of Israel. For six years Israel tried to keep the peace, even knowing all the while that more and more weapons were entering Lebanon. (The Lebanese government is powerless against Hizb'ullah. There are no Lebanese soldiers in Southern Lebanon.)
Last year, Israel vacated the Gaza Strip: another gesture of good will. The result has been that all Israel's communities that border the Gaza Strip are daily bombarded by short range rockets.
When Hamas in the south and Hizb'ullah in the north abducted three soldiers Israel's government said: enough! Hizb'ullah wants an exchange: "We'll give you back your soldiers if you give us back terrorists who are in Israeli jails." Those terrorists murdered innocent civilians, were caught, given a fair trial and sentenced. They all have "blood on their hands".
Israel has three objectives:
1. Unconditional restoration of the abductees. (If you bargain for them you are just inviting more abductions for more bargains.)
2. The effective disarmament of Hizb'ullah.
3. The deployment of the Lebanese Army along the border with Israel, according to resolution 1559 of the UN Security Council which Hizb'ullah has actively prevented. (It may be necessary to augment the Lebanese Army with an International Force either from UN or from NATO.)
This war is between Israel and Iran. Hizb'ullah is just a local arm of Iran which supplied all their weaponry, Syria acting as a transit station). The USA (and most western governments) understand that Iran must be brought to heel by Israel defeating Hizb'ullah. Until the Islamic extremists have been dealt with there cannot be peace in the Middle East.
So, if the cause is so just what makes me unhappy? It is a simple fact that I forgot to mention. Hizb'ullah learned a useful lesson from Fatah. Their rockets, launchers, ammunition dumps and administrative facilities are housed in schools, hospital, mosques and private homes. Thus any attempt by Israel to eliminate that weaponry and infrastructure involves innocent civilians. To solve this problem Israel dropped leaflets advising the citizens to leave. Many of them did, but Hizb'ullah also has prevented many of them from leaving! So innocent people are hurt and killed.
Of course, innocent people are also being hurt and killed in Israel because it will take time to effectively eliminate the Hizb'ullah arsenal. The Israel public - especially in the North - are adamant that despite the tragic losses and the social and financial inconvenience this war must be fought to its conclusion. The Israeli public has no confidence in international cease-fire agreements which never solve the problem and just create a new one. The mood is that "this time we must finish the job ourselves".
How can anyone be happy knowing that in order for them to have a modicum of security such as people all over the world enjoy innocent people are being made to suffer. It hurts, believe me. No one in Israel wants the Lebanese people to suffer. But they let the Hizb'ullah into their schools, hospitals and homes in the first place.
Lastly, I have a personal reason for concern, a concern shared by tens of thousands of Israelis: as of these last couple of days I have a son and a son-in-law who have been called up for reserve duty.
This has been very long, but I have managed to get a few things off my chest. Hopefully, if you managed to wade through this to the end, you now understand the Israeli view of the situation a little better as you see it through my eyes.
I just don't have the time to visit the Message Board as often as I would like to these days, but I shall try very hard to follow this thread at least, if anyone shows an interest. And there is always email too.
In many ways I look upon the regular participants on this board as true friends, so I miss you all a lot. I try to be in reasonably regular touch with Timmy via IM. That's it folks, for now. Having read all this you can now get back to your normal lives. Lucky you! God bless you all.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Hi JFR
I wish you and yours well, and a speedy resolution to this conflict.
I don't want to comment on the moral or substantive aspects of what you say - other than than, of course, it looks very different from the other side of the border - but in purely practical terms I suspect that Israel is making exactly the same mistake as the UK & US did with the "war on terror", and that is to react in a fashion that actually increases support for extremists.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It's really hard to know how to answer this. I don;t like war of any sort, especially one thatinvolves a civilian population. And both sides have civilan populations in danger.
From a human perspective I simply wish it over fast with minimal loss of life, especially of people I know.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear JFR,
I wish you and your family well and hope that this conflict will soon be over.
There is no doubt that entrepreneurs and businessmen who have been rebuilding Lebanon during recent years want Hizb'ullah out of their country. And so do the women, but they don't have a say in this, do they?
It may seem that Israel have overreacted, but the big difference between Israel and USA/Britain/Europe is that Israel is surrounded by countries which, at various times, have been a direct threat to the very existence of Israel as a country. USA/Britain/Europe are not. We are lucky, we can live normal lives.
God bless you too!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The challenge Israel has is that it almost alwasy loses the PR war. It can be 100% right and still be "at fault"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> The challenge Israel has is that it almost alwasy loses the PR war. It can be 100% right and still be "at fault"
I'd actually say that the problem is that Israel too often *wins* the PR war in influencing the US (and UK) policy, while "losing" the PR war everywhere else.
Actually, I'd also say ... "it could be 100% right" rather than "it can be 100% right" ... I'm far from convinced that it ever actually has been.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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None of us like war. But sometimes it is necessary. Israel has no choice but to kick Hizb'ullah’s ass. Public relations be dammed. I hope the USA and the UK do all they can to support Israel. JFR I hope you and your family stay safe thought this war. I have always been rather amused that terrorist groups through around “God be willing” a lot. Does that mean when ever they fail at anything its God’s fault?
Gary
Navyone
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JFR,
Thank you for posting. I understand the situation from your point of view a bit better now, though I don't expect that anyone, the media and myself included, will be able to see it with anything approaching an unbiased point of view until long after the conflict over. At the moment all I see is people dying, and it seems that a lot (obviously not all) of those deaths are directly down to Israel's recent actions. That this will prevent more people from dying or living in fear in the future than will die in the current conflict is presumably the justification -- but that is essentially gambling with people's lives, and often it does not pay off.
I have no prejudices against either Israel or Lebanon otherwise -- I'm the first to admit I don't really understand the politics of the region.
Nevertheless, I'm glad that you've been able to post. My best wishes to you and your family, and I hope you are all safe and stay as safe as possible.
David
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Hugs JFR ~
I've been checking the MB every day hoping to hear news of you and your family. I know the stress and exhaustion from worrying and caring for your family and friends and the Israeli people must be overwhelming.
I read your explanation carefully and agree that sometimes you just have to go toe to toe with the bully. When backing off doesn't work and talking is wasted breath, a show of force can be the only answer. I feel such sorrow for innocent victims on both sides, but the die has been cast and this will all play out now.
Normal life? Is there such a thing? I think we all just wait for the thing that goes bump in the night.
Take care, my friend ~
You're in my thoughts ~
Jamie
"You have your way. I have my way. As far as the right way, the correct way, and the only way - it doesn't exist."
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JFR,
I found your post both informative and intruiging, because we only hear what the media want to tell us in the UK, and when it comes to matters like this, it's easy to get a false picture.
I hope your son and son-in-law remain safe even though called up for duty.
It's always these extremists who are the easiest to agitate and manipulate into carrying out the wishes of whoever is the real source of unrest behind the scenes. Iran eh? I guess it figures.
I can't say whether you have your share of fanatics in Israel or not because I don't have that knowledge. What I do see when we get news reports are the idiots who love to run riot, burn and destroy even places in their own country because someone has fired them up. These people seem to have little inteligence of their own, or if they do, they are certainly not using their brains to see who is manipulating them.
I wish your people the very best, and if it means going all the way to finish this madness, so be it. I can't say I blame them this time. :'-(
Mike.g
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Dear Friends,
Thank you so much for your good wishes and encouragement. Since some of you have been so kind as to respond to what I wrote let me make a few comments on some of what has been written.
NW wrote: but in purely practical terms I suspect that Israel is making exactly the same mistake as the UK & US did with the "war on terror", and that is to react in a fashion that actually increases support for extremists.
When one nation has openly declared its intention to annihilate another what do you expect it to do? (That is not a rhetorical question.) The Jewish people has a very long memory, so what happened only 60 years ago is still a very fresh memory. We have learned the lesson: when someone says they want to destroy you - believe them! No human being has the right to kill another human being except in order to save his own life; and if the lives of others are threatened as well it is no longer a right, it becomes a duty. Never again will Jews go "like lambs to the slaughter". In addition, see what Sailor wrote below.
Timmy wrote: The challenge Israel has is that it almost always loses the PR war. It can be 100% right and still be "at fault"
This is so true. A colleague of mine wrote the following just this morning:
There are today over 1 million Israelis confined in shelters in order to avoid being killed by the thousands of missiles in the Hizb'ullah's weaponry. So why does the world take greater pity on Lebanese refugees than Israeli refugees? It is all PR smoke and mirrors. The Lebanese/Hizb'ullah spokespeople look like real refugees and our spokespeople are dressed in clean and pressed uniforms. They are therefore David to our Goliath. Our refugees are not being shipped out to Cyprus. They are being welcomed by friends and strangers into homes and hotels in other parts of the country. The Lebanese continue the Arab tradition of letting their fellow citizens stew and suffer so as to emphasize how awful their plight. When our citizens can safely return to their homes the so called disproportionate Israeli response to terror will come to an end. Until then I would like to see what anyone invoking this criticism of Israel would do if their home was being fired at for 14 days.
NW wrote: Actually, I'd also say ... "it could be 100% right" rather than "it can be 100% right" ... I'm far from convinced that it ever actually has been.
I'm sorry you doubt that Israel has ever been right. Perhaps you would suggest what Israel should have done to meet the Islamic threat instead of what she has done.
Deeej wrote: At the moment all I see is people dying, and it seems that a lot (obviously not all) of those deaths are directly down to Israel's recent actions.
How one-sided a view can you have? The bully starts the fight and when the other guy retaliates he shows all his bruises crying "not fair!" And onlookers, like Deeej, never seem to notice the bruises that the other guy has. Apparently, the suffering of innocent Lebanese citizens is more important than the suffering of Israeli citizens. Very strange.
but that is essentially gambling with people's lives, and often it does not pay off.
Who is gambling here with whose lives? Again, I ask: what do you do when someone threatens to annihilate you and you believe that he is really trying to do so? If Israel is left in peace and co-exists side-by-side with a viable Palestinian State no lives need be at risk at all. Hamas, Hizb'ullah, Syria and Iran do not want that at all.
Mike.g wrote: we only hear what the media wants to tell us in the UK, and when it comes to matters like this, it's easy to get a false picture
This is part of Israel's PR failure. Recently (a few months ago) an INTERNAL investigation by the BBC found that its coverage of the Middle East was "consistently misleading".
I can't say whether you have your share of fanatics in Israel or not because I don't have that knowledge.
Of course we have our fanatics. And that includes not only religious fanatics but also political fanatics. We do our best to keep them in check. Their number, so far, is so small that they have never been able to reach the meagre threshold needed to get even one seat in the Knesset. But they are a very vociferous and very dangerous nuisance.
Before I started this thread I solicited Timmy's opinion, because I am very aware that it has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of topic for which this MB exists. All those who think that is is really "out of court" can just ignore this thread.
God bless us all.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Jedediah
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Likes it here |
Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170
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Thank you JFR. As always, yours is the voice of sanity and reason.Be safe and stand fast.
E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
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>Deeej wrote: At the moment all I see is people dying, and it seems that a lot (obviously not all) of those deaths are directly down to Israel's recent actions.
>How one-sided a view can you have?
I can have the view that has been peddled by the BBC. Which is, as I say, showing large numbers of real people dying directly down to Israel's actions. Reinforced by their reporting of such organisations as the United Nations reporting that they are aghast by the damage wreaked by Israel.
If my view is one-sided, so is that of the BBC.
>The bully starts the fight and when the other guy retaliates he shows all his bruises crying "not fair!" And onlookers, like Deeej, never seem to notice the bruises that the other guy has.
Okay, tell me the bruises.
How many innocent civilians killed so far in Israel by groups in Lebanon?
How many innocent civilians now killed in Lebanon by Israel?
>Apparently, the suffering of innocent Lebanese citizens is more important than the suffering of Israeli citizens. Very strange.
Not on an individual to individual basis, no. But it depends how many there are in that position on each side. Again, tell me.
David
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I said,
>but that is essentially gambling with people's lives, and often it does not pay off.
You said,
>Who is gambling here with whose lives?
Both sides. Isn't that what war is?
David
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JFR
Firstly - and importantly - I really don't want to get into a slanging match over this: you are someone for whom I have developed a great respect over the time I've been hanging round this board, although we clearly don't agree about this particular issue.
That's why my responses have been about purely pragmatic points. I'm trying to avoid getting drawn into the historical aspects of it. I think you've slightly misunderstood me:
the current attempt to destroy Hizb'ullah is being carried out in such a way as (I believe) is likely to build a large future pool of recruits to Hizb'ullah and similar extremist terrorist organisations - this can only be harmful for the prospect of any kind of long-term co-existence.
I believe that it is incredibly rare (I can't offhand think of one example) for *any* side in a conflict to be 100% right. This would imply a purity of motive that just doesn't exist in the real world. To see any side as 100% right is to deny any legitimacy to the other side - and IMHO this is only possible by not recognising their basic humanity. That said, I *do* believe that it is possible for one side in a conflict to be 99%+ wrong ... examples are both depressing and numerous.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I said,
>Okay, tell me the bruises.
>How many innocent civilians killed so far in Israel by groups in Lebanon?
>How many innocent civilians now killed in Lebanon by Israel?
It seems I can get the answer from the BBC.
Says the BBC:
>At least 372 Lebanese, the great majority civilians, have been killed during the conflict, which is now into its 13th day. Thirty-seven Israelis have been killed, about half of them civilians.
From that point of view,
>Apparently, the suffering of innocent Lebanese citizens is more important than the suffering of Israeli citizens.
is indeed true if there are ten times more people in that position.
I don't want to get into an argument with you, JFR, as I respect you a great deal. I'm not objecting to the proposition that Israel is in the "wronged" position. I'm concerned by the way they seem to be going about finding a solution. If it's all the UK media's fault that it looks like Israel are the primary aggressors in this conflict, then they -- the BBC included -- deserve a huge slap on the wrist. None of them has had one yet, though.
I'll stay out of this thread from now on.
David
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Hi NW. Forgive this tardy response: I have been 'otherwise occupied', as you can imagine. I agree completely with the spirit of what you have written. Common civility is (usually) the manner of this MB, and even friendship. So, my friend, we will agree to disagree. There are worst things in life than amicable disagreement. Although we have never been in email contact please let me send you a hug too.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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David,
Thank you for your questions which I will try to address. But first of all please let me apologise. I now realise that you must have seen my words to you as an attack (which they were certainly not meant to be). I think you know the friendly feelings I have for you. Mea culpa.
Now let me try to supply the information that you asked for, but you must let me do so through my own perspective. As I hinted in a previous post in this thread this war did not start two weeks ago. The last Israeli soldier left Lebanon on 25th May 2000. That was the day this war started. Since that day and up to the start of present hostilities 1145 Israelis were killed by terrorist attacks from over the border and 7800 have been injured. They too must be counted as part of the tragic harvest of this war. But there are two salient differences between the tragedies, as I see it. Firstly, Those 1145 Israeli citizens were deliberately murdered by terrorists and the injured (some of them very badly) were only injured because the murder attempt failed. The Israel army is certainly causing tragic deaths; but this is not out of deliberate animosity. As I pointed out earlier, the army did recommend to the civilians that they evacuate. (Today the Israel army has made a similar recommendation to the inhabitants of the Israeli town of Metulla.) Secondly, you were left almost unaware of all those Israeli deaths and injuries. One reason, certainly, would be the fact that they were sporadic: on an average 'only' about 200 deaths per year, and when these become routine and are spread out over many months it just isn't newsworthy. And if some of these deaths were brought to the attention of good people around the world what could they do except grimace and return to living their lives? Not one foreign government made a fuss. Not one foreign government offered humanitarian aid. (Thank God, we managed ourselves.)
Since the present hostilities started northern Israel has been bombarded by more than 2000 missiles fired from Lebanon. As far as I can tell those missiles have caused about 40 deaths. Many hundreds have been injured, but I don't have an exact figure. One million people are living in shelters in order to avoid those missiles. Several hundred thousand have evacuated their homes and gone south to spend time with relatives, friends - or in hotels and boarding houses. They too are refugees. Three thousand reports have been sent in to the income tax authorities concerning property damage.
I'm sorry I can't be more specific: this was just to try and answer your questions as best I can. Remember, I'm just an ordinary citizen.
Lastly, NEVER think that I am attacking you!
Hugs.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I apologise, JFR: assuming you're right, 1145 is a huge number of people to have been killed by terrorists. This is not a war that has been widely reported in the western press.
Hugs. I wish you all the best.
David
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Thanks, JFR - as always, the amicability is far more important than the disagreement. A big hug right back at you, along with repeated good wishes for the wellbeing of yourself and your loved ones, especially during the currently very difficult situation.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I know Im not as worldly as the adults here, but I got a few obsevations I would like to make. Israel was attacked by the Egyptians, Egypt got its ass kicked. Israel was not the agressor. I have always heard that to the victor goes the spoils. But nooooooo, not when it came to Israel. So the Palastenians were stupid and lost their land. Now, the Israelites did something they didnt have to do, they gave the Palastenians the homeland they were screaming and belly aching for, but that wasnt enough. so the Palastenians started terror bombing the Israelies. Israle responded. Israel has tried time and again to make peace with them but they dont want that. What they want is the distruction of Israel. Its not Israels fault that the Palastenians arnt smart enought to run their own government and economy and control the radicles in their mist, not to mention letting outside people run their business. As far as Im concerned, the Israelites should just march in and take it all back and wipe Hez'balla from the face of the earth. There are no inocent people in Palastine. Every one of them is a potential terrorist. What I have seen is Israel bend over back words to accomidate them and they still arnt satisfied. The Israelites were very willing to leave themn alone, but they arnt going to have that. Yes people are dying, but its their own fault. I have nothing against Palatenians, but it appears they dont have enough sense to pour piss out of a boot. Israel has a right to defend itself and it should. We had two towers knocked down and we went and blasted two countries over it. Israel defends itself against Hamas and such and catch hell for it.
JFR, you are special and a good friend. Im sorry that so many have to die and so many are displaced. I wish there was a quick easy answer to all of this. I know you have your hands full trying to help and make things easier for the ones displaced. You are right, the Palastenians run around going poor us and dont try to help their own, when they have the means to do it. its set and its staged by them to get world sympathy, but they dont have mine. You my friend have my sympthy and prayers always.
Ok Ive ranted enough. Im sure you can shoot my posting full of holes, but its how I feel about the whole thing. I dont want to see people die and I think all these conflicts are stupid, but a person or nation has the right to defend itself. Isarel proved they are a force to be reckoned with. One thing I do find funny. Is the tv news showing this Palastenian holding a rock with his arm rared back staring down the barrel of a cannon. I can see him now. "if you dont stop, Im gonna throw this rock at you." the driver of the tank going,"DUH".
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I agree
July 21, 2006
Pacifists versus Peace
By Thomas Sowell
One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.
"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements -- that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war.
Take the Middle East. People are calling for a cease-fire in the interests of peace. But there have been more cease-fires in the Middle East than anywhere else. If cease-fires actually promoted peace, the Middle East would be the most peaceful region on the face of the earth instead of the most violent.
Was World War II ended by cease-fires or by annihilating much of Germany and Japan? Make no mistake about it, innocent civilians died in the process. Indeed, American prisoners of war died when we bombed Germany.
There is a reason why General Sherman said "war is hell" more than a century ago. But he helped end the Civil War with his devastating march through Georgia -- not by cease fires or bowing to "world opinion" and there were no corrupt busybodies like the United Nations to demand replacing military force with diplomacy.
There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated.
"World opinion," the U.N. and "peace movements" have eliminated that deterrent. An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions.
That has been a formula for never-ending attacks on Israel in the Middle East. The disastrous track record of that approach extends to other times and places -- but who looks at track records?
Remember the Falkland Islands war, when Argentina sent troops into the Falklands to capture this little British colony in the South Atlantic?
Argentina had been claiming to be the rightful owner of those islands for more than a century. Why didn't it attack these little islands before? At no time did the British have enough troops there to defend them.
Before there were "peace" movements and the U.N., sending troops into those islands could easily have meant finding British troops or bombs in Buenos Aires. Now "world opinion" condemned the British just for sending armed forces into the South Atlantic to take back their islands.
Shamefully, our own government was one of those that opposed the British use of force. But fortunately British prime minister Margaret Thatcher ignored "world opinion" and took back the Falklands.
The most catastrophic result of "peace" movements was World War II. While Hitler was arming Germany to the teeth, "peace" movements in Britain were advocating that their own country disarm "as an example to others."
British Labor Party Members of Parliament voted consistently against military spending and British college students publicly pledged never to fight for their country. If "peace" movements brought peace, there would never have been World War II.
Not only did that war lead to tens of millions of deaths, it came dangerously close to a crushing victory for the Nazis in Europe and the Japanese empire in Asia. And we now know that the United States was on Hitler's timetable after that.
For the first two years of that war, the Western democracies lost virtually every battle, all over the world, because pre-war "peace" movements had left them with inadequate military equipment and much of it obsolete. The Nazis and the Japanese knew that. That is why they launched the war.
"Peace" movements don't bring peace but war.
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Thanks Navyone ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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"Solutions" imposed by force tend to breed resentment, that eventually spills over into increased violence.
Post-colonial Africa - and the Middle East - provide some excellent examples, and it is at least arguable that the story of Hitlers rise might have been different had it not been fuelled by the grossly unfair settlement imposed at Versailles - at least, that's what they taught us in 'O' level "History of the 20th Century", back when I did it in 1970. (see Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles , for example).
Permanent solutions tend to arise from hard work, by either eliminating hidden grievances (most wars have at root a strong economic component), or by making them irrelevant ... or, somewhat rarely, by the march of history changing the playing-field.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Disclaimer: I am talking in general terms and specifically NOT referring to the Middle East crisis at the moment.
You agree unconditionally, Navyone? Where should the boundaries be? Is it better for the whole world to be at war than for some people to refuse to fight?
There are many examples of wars where military intervention has cost thousands or millions of loves, and gained little. That, of course, is only known afterwards, in just the same way that the failure of a peace process is only known afterwards. But is it not right at least to aspire to saving lives and trying to resolve the problem in a civilised way?
That does not mean that governments need to be naive and ignore threats. An armed deterrent is usually necessary. That does not mean that it needs to be flaunted or used agressively, especially when there are still ongoing negotiations that may yet bear fruit. A lot of wars go on -- and many people die -- for far too long soley because one side refuses to be seen to lose face. That is inexcusable.
Of course it all depends on the circumstances. Still, I think it's absurd to say that peace movements cannot ever be useful.
David
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Unfortunately I have always found peace movements only being useful to those who want to cause harm to us. (Us being free nations). One reason may be that if a pacifist ever stuck his head up in repressed countries it would be cut off. I want peace you want peace we all want peace. So what’s the problem?
I was going to say something unkind about pacifists but I won’t.
Gary
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I'm not a pacifist. Just a sceptic.
David
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Navyone wrote:
> Unfortunately I have always found peace movements only being useful to those who want to cause harm to us. (Us being free nations).
That may be where I most strongly disagree with you: for me, "us" is fellow human beings.
> I was going to say something unkind about pacifists but I won’t.
... well, if we're saying it in pictures, you might like to look at http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse/74117
(Yes, the site, and the slogan, is satirical.)
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is about the most rediculous thing I have read on the net yet ! ! !
Have you ever heard of Mahatma Gandhi??? Mother Theresa???
I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Dear Brian, I just do not have the time to respond to all the posts in this thread, but yours is one that I really want to relate to.
You wrote:
Now, the Israelites did something they didnt have to do
The Israelites are a biblical concept; today we call ourselves Israelis  .
Israel has tried time and again to make peace with them but they dont want that. What they want is the distruction of Israel.
Yes, this is the heart of the problem. Until this desire changes there is no peaceful solution. As I see it, the only way that desire will change is when Israel's enemies despair of vanquishing her.
Its not Israels fault that the Palastenians arnt smart enought to run their own government and economy and control the radicles in their mist, not to mention letting outside people run their business. As far as Im concerned, the Israelites should just march in and take it all back and wipe Hez'balla from the face of the earth.
We must be careful here. The Palestinians are one people and Hizb'ulla are another. The Palestinians want and need a state of their own. Israel warmly supports that desire, provided that the Palestinians are prepared to share this small country with us. When they finally realize that we are here to stay perhaps that will happen. That is all that is preventing the establishment of their state.
Hizb'ullah are not Palestinians, they are Lebanese. Israel has no territorial claims on any part of Lebanon. We recognise the international border which was delineated after World War I.
There are no inocent people in Palastine.
Brian, never say that. There are wonderful Palestinians. Indeed, I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of them are decent people like you and me. Their only sin is that they support terror by not opposing it. The great Irishman Edmund Burke said that "all that is needed for evil to flourish is that good people do nothing".
JFR, you are special and a good friend.
Brian, you are a truly wonderful person. If you were my son I would be really proud of you. And, believe me, what you have written really touched my heart. I could jump for joy! However, I will only email you privately if you give me permission to do so.
You are right, the Palastenians run around going poor us and dont try to help their own, when they have the means to do it. its set and its staged by them to get world sympathy
You know, this is one thing of which I would be ashamed if I were a Palestinian. Some of the richest countries in the world are Arab States. Their oil revenues are so large they are incomprehensible. Yet they leave their Palestinian brothers in abject poverty. Israel is not a rich country, but she is supported generously by Jews all over the world. Why won't the rich Arab states do the same for their people? Why must the countries of the West give Lebanon humanitarian aid when Saudi Arabia could do so without the smallest effort?
Hugs.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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LARNACA, Cyprus - The UN humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah late Monday of "cowardly blending" among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.
The militant group has built bunkers and tunnels near the Israeli border to shelter weapons and fighters, and its members easily blend in among civilians.
Jan Egeland spoke with reporters at the Larnaca airport in Cyprus after a visit to Lebanon on his mission to coordinate an international aid effort. On Sunday he had toured the rubble of Beirut's southern suburbs, a once-teeming Shiite district where Hezbollah had its headquarters.
Associated Press.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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He may. But could you pass him the coffee nicely instead of hurling it into his lap, please? One tends to smell it better if one is not scalded by it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc said,
>That is about the most rediculous thing I have read on the net yet ! ! !
Hurray! I'm glad to hear that one of my posts is logically now only the second most ridiculous thing on the Internet.
I can't remember which it was, but it doesn't matter, because it's been surpassed by Navyone. 
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I did not brew the coffee.....
I am just making him aware that it smells.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Never fear.....
You are always a contender for the title.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Ah, thanks. I'll take that as a compliment. 
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JFR, You are welcome to email me anytime you feel like it. Thats why I have a Yahoo account and have it posted. I know you are a kind gentle person and a friend. I know I was probably wrong on a lot of the detail of my post, but the point I was trying to make is that we shouldnt blame Israelies for whats going on. I wasnt aware that Hez'balla were from other countries, that being the case its even worse. I know that Arafat was offered a bunch of stuff to get all this settled and he turned it down (I think it had someting to do with the settlements). It was like the best possible deal one could have ever hoped for and Arafat turned it down. Arafat was scared out of his mind that Hamas and the other terror groups would kill him if he did accept it. I know I shouldnt have said that all Palastenians are terrorist, but tv shows a Palastenian kid throwing rocks at a tank, someone needs to tell that kid that its not very affective. I think one of the horrors is that they are training kids to do their dirty work. Lets face it some of these kids wouldnt know what to do with a virgin if they had one. Anyway, I hope that the Palastenians are finally gonna figure out that all this is a loosing proposition and get rid of the people who are causing the problems and get things moving toward peace.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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lia
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Getting started |
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 1
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I occasionally browse this board but have been reluctant to post through a, (perhaps misconceived), feeling of female intrusion into a close-knit male domain, however I could not ignore this thread.
The whole issue seems a blur of conflicting definitions and perceptions. JFR's post seemed symptomatic of this. The UN has also declared this a humanitarian disaster with 500,000 displaced Lebanese civilians, and a case of "disproportionate force" resulting in the destruction of infrastructure which has set the country back a generation.
As for the PR battle, it has been the ascendant Western powers who have long determined the slant we read. Strange that the BBC is accused of bias when it reports impartially and therefore does not toe the party line. The same occurs here in Australia with our ABC, who when daring to question, eg the legitimacy of our entry to the Iraq war, are branded as unpatriotic leftists. Seems to me we've seen plenty of footage of Israelis screaming about rockets used against them being supplied by Syria, but not so many Lebanese wailing about the rockets levelling their land being supplied by the US. There's talk of hostages - copious amounts of the 2 soldiers who "started it all", but no mention of the abduction of an entire group of democratically elected Hamas ministers. But then I guess it's only a recognised government if the US deems it so, regardless of what the local people want.
The saddest thing is the danger of allowing the military to ecome the most imortant decision-making body of a government as the IDF has become in Israel. I'm sad for you JFR, as I see only further militant extremism resulting from this policy. I'm sorry for what was once the beautiful country of Lebanon, but mostly I'm sorry for us all, as we're cynically manipulated by the world powerbrokers and reduced to thinking, like one of the other board posters, that violence is the only viable option.
Apologies for the long "windedness" of my message, but there was just so much to say. I'll metaphorically bunker down now to await your responses.
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I'm sorry: I don't think I know enough about the conflict to know what to think any more. So I won't comment.
David
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