|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
The Lebanese Red Cross confirmed an airstrike in Qana, in which at least 34 children were killed.
Why do the Isralis target buildings housing children?
What is the next step?
I think it is time someone stepped in and put a stop to this.
Once and for all....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
You should ask why the rocket launchers are sited in schools and hospitals and why they continue to launch rockets using innocent people as human shields. They refuse to let the citizenry leave, and compel them to stay in these areas.
the UN has already commented on this.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi Marc,
>I think it is time someone stepped in and put a stop to this.
Who?
I don't think America, the UK, or even the UN are in any place to stop or resolve any more wars, given their appalling recent track record. Israel doesn't seem to have any intention to, Hezbollah are enjoying every minute of it, and the Lebanese government seems to be entirely unable to control the situation.
God, perhaps? A few strategically placed nuclear bombs? I can't see any other alternatives.
>Once and for all....
Well, those two would certainly be able to stop it once and for all...
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
God????
It actualy is that concept that got the world into this mess....
The Isralis believe it is "their birthright" because they are "the chosen people" to have and hold Israel as their own....
Bullshit!! Who exactly did the choosing??? Show me a document....
As for nuclear ordanances.... Well now that would tend to dampen their spirits wouldn't it? But that would involve killing innocent children as well and it was that issue that brought me to post in the first place. So I don't see that as a viable solution.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Now let me see.......
Some bad men take a hospital hostage and places a weapon there....
How can any sane person condone attacking the hospital? Surely this is a situation where the development of some balls are needed and some degree of stelth applied to reach and disable their objective....
It seems a cowards solution to bomb the sick, elderly and children to get at an enemy.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Neither was a serious suggestion. I thought that was obvious.
You know that I don't believe in God. That I think that praying for something (wishing for something to be true) doesn't make the slightest difference. And that preaching anything -- love, hate, that God is Right and True and Proper and wouldn't want this to be happening in His name, et cetera -- is likely to make people fight all the harder.
If we all died in tomorrow it would solve all our problems. Of course, it does introduce the new problem that billions more people die (everyone, in fact).
You still haven't suggested who could possibly step in and put a stop to all this. Involving another country would simply increase the casualties, increase resentment a thousandfold, and get us nowhere.
>The Isralis believe it is "their birthright" because they are "the chosen people" to have and hold Israel as their own....
>Bullshit!! Who exactly did the choosing??? Show me a document....
The American people believe it is "their birthright" because they "colonised America" to have and hold it as their own.
Bullshit! Who exactly did the choosing??? Show me a document...
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Deeej wrote:
> God, perhaps? A few strategically placed nuclear bombs? I can't see any other alternatives.
>
Israel is, of course, widely believed to be a nuclear-armed state (see http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Israel/Nuclear/ for example): "rogue" in the sense that it does not fully acknowledge possession of such weapons, and has not signed nuclear arms control treaties.
The surrounding arab states are non-nuclear, and the US/UK, Israel, and most of the rest of the world seems determined to prevent them achieving either civil nuclear power, or nuclear weaponry (by any and all means, including the non-nuclear bombing of nuclear establishements).
I am profoundly grateful that Israel has not felt it necessary to resort to the use of nuclear weapons, and profoundly concerned that it does in fact possess them.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Actually, it was Europeans that colonized America.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
nazz
|
 |
Getting started |
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 2
|
|
|
I am appalled to see how this board is sometimes trying to justify why children should be killed, just like they do in comfy UN room wearing all the armanies, or like the man who seems always speaking to God. I never posted really, or may be posted in some other fasion, but it is truly hurtful to see such discussion in a place where I visit frequently to read one of my favourite stories.
Thanks again, for your meaningful discussion.
Marc, thank you for understanding some of us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Please email me, I would like to know more about you....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc said,
>Actually, it was Europeans that colonized America.....
Yes, mostly... And?
I said,
>The American people believe it is "their birthright" because they "colonised America" to have and hold it as their own.
It is quite evident that by "they colonised America" I did not mean that the American people of today colonised America. That would be absurd. I meant that this was done by their ancestors. I don't think it is unreasonable to refer to early Americans as American even if they were born in Europe or elsewhere.
You haven't addressed the main point I was making: that just because the rights to live somewhere are complicated and tortuous and based on agreements hundreds or thousands of years back it necessarily makes them invalid today. If that were the case, it is unlikely that anyone would have the absolute "right" to live anywhere, the US of A included.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nazz said,
>I am appalled to see how this board is sometimes trying to justify why children should be killed, just like they do in comfy UN room wearing all the armanies, or like the man who seems always speaking to God. I never posted really, or may be posted in some other fasion, but it is truly hurtful to see such discussion in a place where I visit frequently to read one of my favourite stories.
Who is justifying why children should be killed?
Nazz, I have to say that what you say is so vague that it is highly offensive to quite a few of us by implication. I pay a great deal of attention to the posts on this board, and I have never seen anyone trying to justify why children should be killed. I would suggest you explain what you mean, and to what you refer.
If you are referring to anything I have said in this thread, I have employed quite a lot of sarcasm, but I would have thought it was quite evident.
If you see a clear way forward for the war at the moment that involves no children being killed, I wonder if you could please explain it. If you stop Israel from attacking Lebanon, more Israeli children will be killed. If you let Israel continue, more Lebanese children will be killed. It is a lose-lose situation.
I have no interest in the war other than to see it resolved swiftly with a minimum of bloodshed. I have no doubt that the same applies to all my friends here.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Did anyone stop to think that Israelie children are being killed. get a grip. This might force the Palitinians to rise up against the Hezballa and drive them out. The Hezballa are not Palistinians. Do you think I should believe in a God that hates me even tho he created me. I believe there is a higher power, but I dont believe all this religious mumbo jumbo. dont tell me I should have faith in something that condemns me. Its plain and simple the Palistinians are running around crying "Oh poor us", while Israelie children are dying from rhe hezballa rockets. The solution is simple, drive the Hezballa out of their country.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
What is unfair is to base your military resources in populated areas in schools, hospitals and fesidemntla areas, use theose resources and then cry "foul" when retaliation happens.
What is unfair is to prevent the populace from leaving by statiining gunmen at sprategic points to prevent them from elaving.
What is unfair is to start the war inthe first place.
What is unfair is the inaction of UNIFIL and the inaction of the lebanese government that has allowed thsi situuation to exist at all.
People get killed in wars. The ones who suffer most are the innocents who happen to be present. And the ones who proloing the suffering afre those who fall for the PR and try for cease fires etc which simply do not work.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cossie
|
 |
On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
|
|
|
Those words were repeated twice at the end of each verse of the anti-war song 'Where have all the flowers gone?'.
The words certainly apply to those who make war, but they apply with equal force to those whose opinions, often forcefully expressed, are based upon emotion unsupported by any real appreciation of the reality of a conflict.
This thread began with the question "Why do the Israelis target buildings containing children?" Of course they don't do that. Nor, according to the BBC, was there any suggestion (as implied by a follow-up post) that the building was a hospital; it was a residential block.
As in any conflict, there will be fault on both sides. The primary fault must lie with Hezbollah - an organisation funded from Iran and Syria, but based in Lebanon and with a predominantly Lebanese membership. Hezbollah is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and, as a matter of policy, bases its control centres and bunkers in civilian locations to deter attacks upon them. That said, I haven't seen any substantive evidence to support Timmy's suggestion that Hezbollah are on any significant scale preventing civilians from leaving.
On the other hand, Israel was clearly wrong to refuse the UN request for a three-day ceasefire to enable civilians to leave South Lebanon. It's no answer to hide behind the statement that civilians were warned to leave - and several senior Israeli politicians were glibly reciting that statement yesterday. Remember New Orleans? A substantial section of any population simply does not have the resources or ability to leave their homes without outside assistance, and without a cease fire the UN could not provide that assistance on anything like a sufficient scale to resolve the problem.
The deaths in Qana were tragic in the extreme, but war is a nasty business. The US had, for geographic reasons, been free from war within its territory for many years prior to the 9/11 attacks. Europe has not been in that happy situation; thousands of civilians have lost their lives as a result of bombs and rockets over the past century. Increasingly sophisticated weaponry has reduced the civilian carnage, but it can never be wholly eliminated. Mistakes will always be made. In the Gulf War, a significant number of British troops were killed - and not in a single incident - by US air strikes agains their convoys. The US coined the phrase 'friendly fire' to describe these incidents: 'Sorry, mate, you'll be dead within an hour, but it's OK - it was the Yanks who shot you up.' Very reassuring ... not!
Let's look at South Lebanon. The Israelis withdrew six years ago, and the UN has maintained a presence since then - but the UN has had little enthusiasm for its peacekeeping role, and has contented itself by 'observing', rather than policing the region. The whole objective of the previous Israeli occupation of South Lebanon was to exclude Hezbollah from a buffer-zone so that it did not have the capacity to fire rockets at Israeli targets. During this six-year period, Hezbollah has created a huge military infrastructure in the area, under the noses of the UN troops. Much of this infrastructure involved substantial engineering works, and can hardly have been concealed from public view. But the UN did nothing. So, having become securely entrenched, Hezbollah captures a couple of Israeli soldiers, knowing that this would provoke reaction and, claiming provocation by that reaction, begins a sustained series of rocket attacks on Northern Israel.
It is suggested that 'it is time someone stepped in and put a stop to this. For once and for all.
If only!
The Israelis are, I accept, inclined to military arrogance - secure in the knowledge that US support will always be forthcoming - but they ARE in a truly impossible situation. Marc asks for a document granting their right to occupy their territory. Well, they do have a UN resolution, which gives Israel considerable legitimacy. I agree that Israel has annexed territory not covered by that resolution, but it had a degree of justification in doing so, and part of the problem was poor planning by the UN, which left Israel - which was inevitably going to be a thorn in the side of the Arab world - with unrealistic and indefensible borders.
To clarify my personal standpoint, I am NOT Jewish. I dislike with considerable intensity the fundamentalist Jewish groups with which I have been brought into contact in my professional life; I found these groups to be pretty well devoid of any morality not related to self-interest. On the other hand, I have several secular Jewish friends, including JFR, and I accept without reservation that Israel as a State is much more successful at separating religion and politics than most other Western nations - including the USA. However, those who read this forum regularly will be well aware that I have often defended the Muslim community; they, too are embarrassed by their fundamentalist brethren, though I am moving towards the view that, unless they take radical steps to distance themselves from the fundamentalists, civil violence in Western Europe is inevitable. Islam cannot achieve acceptance as long as it espouses the belief that is is God's will that unbelievers should be killed.
I hope that I have demonstrated that the present conflict is a hugely complex affair, and that 'putting an end to it for once and for all' is, as things stand, damn' near impossible.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
nazz
|
|
Getting started |
Registered: July 2006
Messages: 2
|
|
|
You know what? I really dont need to explain myself. You know very well what you all have been talking about.
However, as you asked, I guess I should at least give some explanation.
What Timmy said about Hezbollah using human shield is a good excuse enough to justify children's being killed.
I've seen enough and now read it very well. So as usual, Israeli children are much more valuable than Labenese, so their (Lebanese) death is jusifiable to protect israelis just like American children are valuable than Iraqis.
No one is dying from your part, so why should you give any shit? I regret for ever coming here or ever reading/communicating with any of you. If people like me say slightest thing against you, we become subject of your criticism, fun or ugly mocking quotes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Try very hard, please, not to turn this into something that is about you. It is not.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Your trying to make yourself a victim, which your not. this is not about you or aganst you, it is a discussion. You made a statement, you got an answer to that statement. Now you wnat to make it like a personal attack on you, pity. I dont know you, have never talked to you, so why would I attack you? I dont know how old you are or why you feel the way you do. You could try and explain your point of view. Its called a debate. if you been lurking here you should know the give and take of this board. If you disagree with someone then wade in there. All discussions are accepted as long as you doint make it a personal assault.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Ahhhh.......
This is a debate?
I am glad that is cleared up....
All the time.... for the life of me I thought it was a discussion....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Would it be about him/her if he/she lived in the same town that was bombed?
I don't know if he/she is.... But the notion is interesting....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A debate is a discussion. A negative and a positive side. Discussions genrally involve two oposing view. Mostly the use of the word was to differentiate between a personal attack and a discussion (debat).
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
If as you say, this discussion has a positive and negative side, what side do you assume.
You see, I saw it at first as a discourse without sides....
But I see I am wrong....
I will assume the position that targeting buildings with women and children is fundamentaly wrong....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
By what stretch do you think this person is basing any military operations anywhere?
A cease fire is a stopping of the shooting......
That does not work at helping to stop a war??????????
Do they not allow talks which might lead to treaties???
and subsequently peace???
I guess it is better to ignore all the PR and keep shooting till only one person remains standing....
Amazing......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you have a problem with something Timmy said, then take it up with Timmy. Don't brand us all the same way. I won't defend another's specific words, but I will defend other people here when you attempt to label us all the same thing.
If you've been paying attention, I expect that you will have noticed (a) that I am sceptical of almost any position, the Israeli one included, and (b) that I have said I will not comment on the validity of the war any more, because I was 'told off' myself for being naive and assuming that Israel was the primary aggressor.
>I've seen enough and now read it very well. So as usual, Israeli children are much more valuable than Labenese, so their (Lebanese) death is jusifiable to protect israelis just like American children are valuable than Iraqis.
As a matter of fact, I, personally, have said the opposite -- that the Lebanese children at the moment are far more important because there are significantly more of them. You can count one more person out as a person with that opinion, at least.
>If people like me say slightest thing against you, we become subject of your criticism, fun or ugly mocking quotes.
Who are 'people like you'? It would be entirely different if you could provide some context to your words. Instead you pop up, out of the blue, start slinging accusations around, and don't justify your position. I expect you are not a troll, but it is classic trolling behaviour.
This board thrives on intelligent discussion. Saying 'you're wrong', especially very indignantly, and without justification, essentially stifles it. I respect anyone who can define his or her position and why he believes in it. You have not yet done that.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
By "Lebanese children at the moment are far more important because there are significantly more of them [than Israeli children]" I meant that there are significantly more of them dead, dying, or seriously at risk.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
You are spliiting hairs here. Naz was making the issue about nazz. It is not about nazz. It is about a vicious, cold, calculating proxy army from Iran and Syria whose use of the civilian population is reprehensible.
Whevere nazz lives this is not about nazz. It is about the aggressors.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The dicsussion (debate) whatever is wheather Israel should be bombing Palistine or not. Israel has the right to defend itself from attackers, period. If the Palistenians want Israel to stop, then drive the Hezballa out of their country. If a couple million people rise up against a few hundred, they can drive then out. Instead of throwing rocks at tanks, throw them at the Hezballa terrorist. I know this is probably not the most popular position, but Im also not a bleeding heart tree hugger. If someone continuosly harrasses you and attacks you, eventually your going to respond.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Again, you miss the point totaly.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why not explain what the point is? Otherwise you might as well not have bothered to reply.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian, unless I'm completely off my rocker, Lebanon and Palestine are not the same thing.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
I regret this thread....
I should have never brought the subject up....
I will be sure to not open another thread in the future....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Ahhhh..... you at least begin to scratch the surface of the point.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thats what my mom says
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Perhaps then she is right....
Sometime....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David, where did I say antying about Lebanon. Im not being difficult, but If I did it was a mistake.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc,
If the point really is just "You miss the point," then you might as well not say it.
The best way to deal with someone making an honest mistake is to explain where and why they are wrong. At the very least, hint in the nicest possible way. Brian is not altogether wrong, if you read 'Lebanonese' for 'Palestinians'. He is just confusing two conflicts.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Os that when shes drunk or sober?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brian,
I don't understand -- the whole world is talking about the Israel-Lebanon conflict, but you are talking about the Palestinian one?
Hezbollah is Lebanese, not Palestinian. So at the very least
>If the Palistenians want Israel to stop, then drive the Hezballa out of their country.
makes no sense.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Either / or....
After all right is right.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
That was combative, impolite, snide, and downright uncalled for.
If you have something to say, say it. Say it clearly, simply and politely. Be constructive, not destructive. You are in your fifties. Brian is in his teens. You were once an educator; I doubt you found this approach successful. This is not educative. It is outside the behaviours I permit here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
Re: God and nuclear weapons 
Impolite 
