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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Do I have to close this place down while I am away to prevent it being wrecked by spite, cant and dogma? I'm more than happy to do so.
Debate, as I have said so often before, implies points being scored and having winners and losers.
Discussion means that no entrenched positions are taken, and that views may be shifted. Discussion tends to mean that people learn.
Anyone thinks they can solve the Middle East, go there and solve it. Those living there will tell you it is not simple.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
>Do I have to close this place down while I am away to prevent it being wrecked by spite, cant and dogma? I'm more than happy to do so.
Please don't.
I understand that there are occasionally posts that must be removed or moderated -- is there anyone else who might be able to stand in for you while you're away?
>Anyone thinks they can solve the Middle East, go there and solve it. Those living there will tell you it is not simple.
Well, it's "simple" if you're so polarised that you see fighting as the only way to continue. Or if you're on one side and see the only "reasonable step" to be for other side to stop absolutely and for ever, and preferably to cease to exist at the same time. Regrettably, neither is possible at the moment.
I hope you have a good holiday, Timmy.
Best wishes,
David
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Dont shut it down Timmy. If you do Ill regress and you dont want me going back to square one do you?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The problems here are not very easy to solve either......
They never were and never will be......
As far as spite, cant (read hipocracy here) and dogma.... Well that often flows in both directions......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The problems that you seem to enjoy so often stating as being "here" only exist when someone decides to take an enrenched position and to score points off others. The one line posts like "You miss the point" tend to be those that score points. If someone is incorrect, state it simply, and say what is incorrect. And do it politely, the way you wish to be treated yourself.
I am also not keen on anyone displaying a combative attitude.
Any other issues "here" are caused by people refusing to remember that we are meant to be polite here. I am particularly irked by this because I am about to go on a vacation. Usually I can calm things down. This time, this thread is all you guys will get.
So, if you want to fry each other, just go ahead. But if you truly want this virtual place then take care of it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Om sorry Timmy. I should have kept my mouth shut. Like mom says, I dont even have to be there to cause a problem.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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With the geatest respect, I feel obliged once again to disagree with the distinction you seek to draw between discussion and debate. In common usage (and I quote the Oxford Dictionary as my authority!) the words are interchangeable. 'Debate' is widely used in the press to mean the same as discussion - that is, consideration of all aspects of a topic without polarisation. It's used in the same way in parliament; the opposition does not 'oppose' a government bill in principle, it puts forward amendments which it considers would improve the proposed legislation - and, of course, the minority parties may express still different views about the government's proposal.
The one situation in which the word 'debate' implies polarised argument is in the formal arena of a University Union or (imitatively) in a school Debating Society. I think most of our participants are well aware of this specialist usage and do not see it as relevant to our exchanges on the board. As you know, I'm a lover of language but, nevertheless, I see little point in arguing semantics. I appreciate your concern, but when the semantic aspect is used to criticise Brian, who was quite obviously NOT making a semantic distinction, I think that the attempt to maintain such a distinction has become counter-productive.
I also feel compelled to comment upon your second post. I don't think anyone here wants to 'fry' anyone else. Since returning to the board a year ago, but particularly in the last three or four months, I've had a lot of e-mails (despite the fact that I'm not really an 'e-mail person'!) from both posters and lurkers, and the clear majority view is that your board is the best of its kind on the internet - because of its wide age-profile, because of its humour, but most of all because of its sensible and pragmatic moderation. I know that - justifiably - you are proud of the whole site, but in my (admittedly rarely humble!) opinion, the Forum is your greatest achievement, and one of which you should be inordinately proud. If there are storms, PLEASE try to weather them - this is an internet resource well worth preserving.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I claim the "Dotheboys Hall" ability to define words as I mean them  . Or was that Micawber?
Here, whenever people have taken sides, we have had a points scoring debate. When we eliminate that we have a discussion. When points are socfred no-one ever moves their position. When no points are scored, while movement of position is unusual, it happens.
What irks me beyond belief is when people start sniping. Whenever it starts the board becomes almost unusable for about two weeks while the less assured do not post in case they get sniped at.
Youth or adult we are all grownup enough to know not to snipe, not to score cheap points, not to embarrass others, not to go for the jugular. So, if we all know enough not to, why does it happen and start to wreck what we (not "I", "we") have built here?
I have never prevented discussions that are controversial. All I have ever sought to do is to have us hold them with total politeness.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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As a person who has both felt sometimes on the recieving end of some (in only my own mind) attack of sorts, I agree with cossie wholeheartedly. I know I have also offended others sometimes when I type without thinking things thru like I should. It is better sometimes to just wait a while before responding to waht you read here if it is a real issue with you and I will try to do that in the future. No, in case any are wondering, I have not been sensored or singled out by anyone!
I do enjoy this place and I just wish I could be as articulate as some I see here. I don't always state my case as well this way as I could in a phone conversation where I would be able to correct mis-conceptions of what I am trying to say, but I still feel fine about coming here and being able to say my piece. You guys are a fine bunch and I would feel bad if you didnt want me to post, but I have never gotten that impression.
Soooo if everyone will just "chill out" as they say, I see no reason for Tim to worry one little bit while he is away. Have a good vacation Tim.
Ken
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... may be a case of putting the cart before the horse, which can make progress very difficult!
It seems to me that you are simply using the terms to distinguish between discussive threads which contain aggressive posts (debates) and those which do not (discussions). That's fine as a working definition when considering the problems which arise from sniping and other forms of rudeness, and I agree absolutely with all that you say on that score. But whilst it's perfectly reasonable to add your own gloss to the words in a particular context, I still think it's wrong - and rude - that someone should be effectively criticised for using the word 'debate' in its ordinary and accepted sense, as happened recently. In accepted English usage, every discussion is a debate and every debate is a discussion!
I'd suggest that ALL posters adding to a discussive thread should
- try to express their opinions as clearly and unambiguously as they can. This isn't always easy, but if a post is misunderstood the original author should accept that the misunderstanding may well be his fault.
- if disagreeing with another poster, explain why and, where appropriate, put forward an alternative view.
- avoid making statements of fact unless the 'facts' really are facts - always remembering that opinions are NOT facts!
- never make snide, sarcastic or provocative remarks. Such behaviour is clearly rude, and apart from upsetting the recipient it usually makes the writer look stupid.
If you think about it, this is just how a group of friends would behave if discussing something around a dining table. It isn't rocket science, simply good manners. But on the board we have an additional facility - the preview button! Always use it, and if you would find the post upsetting if it were addressed to you, ask yourself whether it's really a good idea to submit it.
If someone ignores these guidelines and says something which upsets you, it's much more effective to simply state that you found his comments upsetting and/or rude than to reply in kind.
And, having got that off my chest, I wish Timmy (and all who sail with him!) a very happy and relaxing - and dare I hope creatively inspiring? - couple of weeks in the sun!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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