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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Or if one witnesses a crime????
Is one as guilty as the abuser for not reporting it to the proper authorities????
Is it not providing aid ro the criminal by not reporting the crime to the proper authorities????
Now, don't go getting all paranoid..... This has nothing to do with this place.....
This question was raised at our place of business when one of the other merchants witnessed an incident involving the disciplining of a child.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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As someone who works with youth, I am required by the State of Georgia to report any abuse that I see. I am also required to report any "suspected" abuse.
It is then the job of the police to sort things out.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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I just did a quick check. In the US it is illegal to not report a child being abused especially if you witness it. However, there is a catch 22 here. An incident like that will be investigated, if they dont find prof of abuse (bruses, whelts, etc.) the case will be pigeon holed till something happens again. The catch here is the wrath of the abuser is going to fall heavy on the child for being the reason protective services was investigating them. I say this because Ive seen it happen. A boy in school was being punished at home in an abusive way. Protective services got involved. The father was warned and the punishing abuse stopped, at least that you could see, but the boys life became a living hell for about a month. In other words, if its not serious enough to have the child taken away from the abusive situation, your not doing the child a favor.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I agree, not reporting abuse equals providing help to the abuser.
Situations like the one Brian refers to, are not uncommon. The offender usually has no intention of stopping his offensive behaviour, but he or she can do a pretty good job at keeping it a secret for a long time. The child at risk needs helpers on many levels: Health and social workers, teachers, child protection service staff, police, neighbours, friends, you and me.
Unfortunately, most people don't want to be involved in "uncomfortable" situations, especially if the offender is a neighbour, a friend or even someone in their own family. It's less complicated to ignore the plight of the child.
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Like E.J., I am required by the state of Texas to report observed or suspected abuse. I have received a lot of the same training to recognize signs and symptoms of the different types of abuse as CPS investigators.
A word of caution. Simple discipline of a child may or may not be abuse. But it should be reported if it is excessive or the child's reaction is unexpected. A very simple guideline to follow is who evokes your sympathy, the child or the person administering the discipline.
Hugs, Charlie
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This reminds me of a set of books I have read about a kid called David Pelzer who was abused by his mother for years and it is an incredible story to read. He wrote a book called "A Child Called 'It'" and it is almost hard to read it as it invokes so much emotion. He wrote some sequels to this one too and he presently has an organization dedicated to helping kids like himself who go thru such torment.
In his case there were dozens of people who could have done something to stop it, but he sort of fell thru the cracks. This guy's will to overcome this thing was really amazing and you should all read it. I know really though that some of you have lived this in reality and maybe that is bad advice for you to read it, but most of us can only imagine what some go thru. It makes me so very thankful that I was spared this myself.
Ken
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Physical abuse is easy to get over, its the emotional and psycological abuse that scares for life. Some kids are abused in a way thats not noticable. A mother who is unloving and distant and uncaring. Thats abuse you dont see and its the worst of all when an entire family sees you as different, a second class relative and treats you as such, just tolerating you.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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In most circumstances, the answer must surely be that the witness has a duty to report abuse, or any other crime, to the appropriate authorities.
Nonetheless, some discretion is obviously needed.
First of all, has a crime actually been committed? It isn't enough that the witness thinks that what happened shouldn't be allowed - the question is, is there any legal prohibition? This covers situations such as the all-too-common blanket disapproval of young people by some older people. Over-enthusiastic complaining to the police can result in a youngster acquiring an undeserved reputation as a trouble-maker. Exuberance is a natural characteristic of the age group!
Secondly, even if there is technically an offence, any reasonable witness should consider whether he is exercising appropriate tolerance. If the family across the street is partying unusually late and noisily, the mere fact that the incident is unusual would suggest that it would not be reasonable to call in the authorities. Similarly, if a colleague at work uses your employer's facilities for private purposes, or appropriates the odd item of stationery, he is clearly breaking the law - but unless it becomes a regular and systematic practice, is a report going to serve any useful purpose? Unless the amounts involved are significant, the police will do no more than issue a caution, but the employer may dismiss the offender. Even if that didn't happen, suspicion and distrust would permeate the workplace, and in turn this would reduce efficiency and might well cost the employer vastly more than the offender's appropriations. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not condoning selfish behaviour or petty theft - I'm merely suggesting that there are occasions when the damage caused by overzealous righteousness can outweigh the damage caused by the offence itself.
Thirdly, I think that there is much wisdom in Charlie's post above. I never had occasion to smack either of my own children, nor did I resort to 'grounding' or similar punishments - but I could always control them by talking to them, and sometimes a glare was sufficient! Despite this, I am not in favour of the UK laws prohibiting any form of physical punishment; any parent can 'lose it' occasionally, and if that results in a slap - so be it. What I cannot tolerate is systematic abuse. Thus I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie's suggestion that a useful litmus test is to consider whether your instinctive sympathy lies with the parent or with the child. Even then, there is a question of degree. Brian's point above is highly relevant - there will always be a risk that involvement of the 'authorities' will result in still more damage to the child. Often that is a risk which must be taken, but it should certainly be included in the equation.
So, in short, the welfare of the victim will normally be the first consideration, but the pros and cons of intervention may need to be very carefully weighed. In the vast majority of situations, the answer will be obvious, but there is no rule-of-thumb which can be applied in EVERY case.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Where is the line drawn? At what jump-off-point does one step in and do something?
Personaly, I prefer to opt on the side of the child. After all it is the child that needs to be protected, not the adult.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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To me, abuse usually isn't a one-off thing, it's habitual. That's I disagree with Brian's post above which says "Physical abuse is easy to get over, its the emotional and psycological abuse that scares for life." No abuse is easy to get over because of the very nature of abuse. Abuse, to me, especially in the context of child abuse is ritually and consistantly taking advantage of a power-disparity (whether a physical, emotional or social power-disparity) in a relationship. There is an obvious power-disparity between parents and children yet there is a line between discipline, excessive parenting and abuse.
My mum hit me, sometimes it was more-or-less unprovoked, but to me it was never abusive. It was never to make me feel like shit, in fact most of the time it was when I was being unsympathetic to her feeling like shit. She never meant it to belittle me, put me in my place, or to make herself feel superior, it was a disciplinary measure and in some occasions it was a way of her lashing out emotionally. Parents do this and justified or not, this isn't abuse. I might classify some of these situations as "assault", but abuse, to me at least, is repetitive. Similarly sexual assault is when it happens once, sexual abuse is when it is more than once and often more of a psychological thing. This isn't to justify assault either, I just think that assault is usually less damaging than abuse, even though it can have terrible long term effects.
So, to me, when should it be reported? Where is the line in the sand drawn? To me it's drawn once it's repeated, or if there are signs that it is a repeated behavour. Assault, should be reported to if it is severe enough to look like something that would be damaging in the long-term. It's a gut call. The interests and rights of the child are the most important. I'm not a fan of "parental rights" at all, I think it's a stupid term, parents have no rights to do ANYTHING to their children, but parents DO have a resposibility.
Basically, though was the adult being responsible, irresponsible or malicious (intentionally or not)?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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When my gramps beat me with a leather belt it left huge whelts all over my butt, back and legs. Those went away, the skin healed, but the hate I had for him didnt go away and probably never will. Its the psycological abuse that stays and eats away at you. He had no right to beat me like he did. I think he even realized that he went to far, but never said he was sorry. Which abuse is more damaging? the whelts that will heal and go away or your grandpa telling your mother that she needs to buy me dolls cause Ill never be a man, or my grandma telling me I should have been aborted. Which is worse Saben? The physical abuse that goes away or the mental abuse that stays with you forever. It takes a lot of effort to ignore what they say and not let it get to you, but the spite and hate is always there lurking in the background. When I leave I will put them out of my mind, Ill never go back, they will be dead to me.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Brian , I was really touched by the abuse you have suffered at the hands of your family. As you say it takes a great deal of effort to get the hurt out of your mind. However this is what you must work on and forgiveness is the key to the problem because without it the hurt eats away inside of you and makes you sick. One way to help with this is through meditation where you learn to package up the hurts and send them off into the ether. This can be done through group sessions (can be hard finding a suitable group)or tapes and cd's of led meditations can be bought and listened to at your leisure. If you would like any help in this regard email me and I will see what I can find.
Here's a big bear hug for now,
Aussie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First of all, in reply to Saben, I see a good deal of sense in his suggestion that repetition can be a relevant consideration. I can't really accept his distinction between abuse and assault, though, unless the words have acquired a particular shade of meaning in Australian English. In British English, assault is a specific legal term meaning an unlawful attack upon a person; it need not necessarily involve physical contact menacing or threatening behaviour is sufficient. Abuse is a much more general term. When applied to a relationship between individuals, it's meaning seems to be changing to imply improper behaviour by the strongest towards those who are weaker. That implication did not appear until the last quarter of the last century, and presumably reflects the increasing use of the term 'sexual abuse', which suggests an element of control. Anyway, 'abuse' CAN describe continuing behaviour, but it can also properly be used to describe a single event, so 'sexual abuse' can describe one, or many, sexual assaults.
Of course, none of this alters the validity of Saben's essential point that repeated abusive behaviour is more serious than a single instance of abuse.
Turning to Marc's reply, I agree unreservedly that the interests of the abused child are paramount, but I do not think that those interests are necessarily best served by reporting every instance of abuse. There are so many possible variables that it's impossible to establish a rule of thumb, but in the specific example of a child being physically disciplined in a shopping mall I think Charlie's advice is hard to better. But if you saw the behaviour repeated, whether half-an-hour later or a couple of weeks later, the balance would tip in favour of action - though even then it would be relevant to take account of the severity of the discipline. In my view it can only be a matter of judgement, but once the investigative machinery is set in motion it cannot be deflected from its course. We should therefore bear in mind that most Child Protection Agencies as overstretched, and several are less than reliably competent. Reporting the event does not guarantee a happy outcome for the child, so the witness needs to be reasonably satisfied that the child is exposed to continuing risk.
Of course, if the victim were the child of a neighbour, the parameters would be different simply because the witness would probably be better placed to see the broader picture. The parameters would also differ in the case of sexual assault; the likelihood that a report would be appropriate would normally be much greater.
Essentially, I am simply arguing that it would be wrong to report every perceived instance of abuse without considering all of the circumstances and implications. I am not for a moment suggesting that a witness to a seriously violent abuse should not reach for the telephone immediately but, as in every aspect of life, there is a range of shades of grey between black and white.
Finally, in response to Aussie, I realise that you are new to the board. I think that I probably know Brian better than any other poster, and I am sure that he will not mind my clarifying his situation.
I appreciate the underlying wisdom of your comments, and in later life they may prove relevant to Brian. For the present, however, he is still living in a psychologically abusive environment. Without going into detail, he has been subjected to extreme stress and, though he is now coping well, that was not always the case. He is effectively stranded in that environment for at least another couple of years, and the circumstances are such that forgiveness is, in practical terms, inconceivable. Taking account of what he has been through, the fact that Brian is such a great kid is nothing short of a miracle, but he is surviving by isolating his home and family from his wider life. That, I am sure, is the best technique for getting through his high school years. After he leaves home for university, perspectives may change but, if they do, it may - entirely understandably - take a very long time.
Of course I'm biased, since I befriended Brian quite a while ago and am proud to have been adopted as a kind of cyber-grandad, but I am also hugely proud of him and few things I have done in life have given me more pleasure and satisfaction. But, Aussie, none of this implies any criticism of you; you simply didn't know the background, but now - I hope - you'll have a better understanding.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Brian, I'm largely with you on this one.
While I never had it as bad as you have, my father used to hit me (and not my bro or sis) when he got frustrated, annoyed, or upset - even if it was nothing to do with me. He had no right to do that ... it was unfair at the time (unlike corporal punishment I received at school, which was "fair" in the sense I deserved it, and I never felt bad about). But I got over it ... if at other times he'd been supportive, or even interested in me, there would have been no cause for hatred.
But I find it impossible to forgive the way he called me "nancy-boy", "unmanly", "useless", and "a waste of space" ... because unlike my brother I was not the kind of boy he liked or understood (mainly because I'm useless at any kind of sport). And there were other things as well - things that are still too painful to talk about. And there were nearly 20 years where we were not on speaking terms at all (precipitated by my coming out)- helped by the fact that he emigrated from the UK to Canada.
I'm now able to accept phone calls from him a couple of times a year. But not because the emotional pain is any less (although the hatred has lessened as I've understood more quite what a threat I must have been to his own very precarious self-esteem): it is more a question that I am also now able to pity him ... his 6th marriage has broken up and he is in poor physical health.
Forgiveness? For me, it will never be possible - the best I can do is to try to understand, and to do my best to accept other people on their own terms for what they are.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I understand NW, I dont want everybody to get the idea that Im beat on all the time cause thats not so. I have learned to take steps to prevent that. IM sorry your dad did that to you. I wish he could have understood the damange he was doing. Like you I can get over the hate, but forgiveness is beyond me. Too many things have been said that cant be taken back. Im, like you said, a pansy, because I wont go out and shoot Bambi for sport. I dont do team sports in school, altho do play some at home. Im dyamite on a skateboard, and I Ice skate like a champ, but they dont mean anything, they arnt a team sport. People like you and me have and will survive because we set ourselves above all that pettyness. I have my friends here and thats all I need to get by.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Cossie, thanks for your explanation of Brian's situation. I have been coming here for quite some time now and have seen how his outlook has improved since having you as a sparring partner and he is lucky for that.
I can now understand that forgiveness is not possible at this time but hopefully he can reach some understanding in time as NW has suggested by looking at it from the perspective of the other person.
I hope you understand that any suggestions I make here are only from a desire to be able to improve someones outlook on life. On a MB such as this no one has the definitive answers but by looking at differing opinions may help someone reach their own understanding of their particular problem.
I enjoy reading your posts, you obviously put a great deal of thought into them. Keep up the good work.
Aussie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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As I said, I wasn't being critical of you, and I certainly didn't intend any sort of implication that your opinions were not welcome. In fact, they are more than welcome - I'd love to see the number of 'regular participants' increase by at least 50%!
My comments in the previous post were simply the product of personal experience; some years ago, I inadvertently hurt someone because I didn't know enough about his background. It's worried me ever since, and even now I feel that there is a tension between us. As a result, I've developed an irresistible urge to ensure that no-one else finds himself in the same situation!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I'm not quite sure where in this thread to post this. Physical abuse has awful results. Let me illustrate. Someone I know well was, as a very small child, beaten black and blue by his mother. So was his older brother. For reasons his father does not understand, the father noticed nothing, yet the beatings were regular. The father supposes this was while he was away on business, and thus was not visible when he came home. The family is a strict family and discipline was normal. This was more than discipline. It was brutal.
If anyone recognises this story, please do not identify the subject of it, unless it is your own story.
Obviously both boys were lacking love. The younger sought it in the arms of an uncle, who, apparently innocently, cuddled him. But when he was 12 the uncle raped him brutally, and used fear to make him submit to further assaults, which continued for several unpleasant years. It seems that the uncle was a serial abuser of young boys.
The fact that the boy was eventually made brave enough by an internet friend in the USA to tell his borther and father is wonderful, as was his bravery in testifying in court against hi sabuser, and the fact that those who abused him, for there were more than one are in jail for a long time is both a testament to his bravery and also "a good thing", but it does not remove the damage that physical maternal abuse did to him.
Physical abuse leads to the child seeking comfort elsewhere. That "Elsewhere" may be a worse abuser. It leads to a vulnerability that a "kind hand" can groom for further abuse.
My friend is now a whole person again, through his own strong will, and, he says, partly because of encouragement in understanding his own worth by real friends online. He also has the love of his father and his brothers and of a new mother. The incidents ruined his health, at least for a while, but he is whole.
I think the original question was "When do you report things?". The answer is that you do it as soon as you can prove it, not a moment before and not a moment later.
The exception to this is when you are a youth worker, or a teacher. My wife reported a 5 year old in her class as "exhibiting odd behaviour" when drawing pictures (heavy black scribbles defacing the drawing). She and the head and the parents had a meeting where the school mentioned its concerns (always useful to let a parent know that the school cares), and the parents started to look at what was happening. The boy's uncle was abusing him and his older sister, and is awaiting trial.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In my origional post....
When a child cies for an item, be it a toy or an ice cream cone there are ways to not give it to the child.
What we were debating was a ten minute, prolonged tirade with jerking and slapping berating the child for daring to ask for something.
Perhaps the child is a little bastard and should only get coal to play with and only brussel sprout and liver sandwiches to eat. Perhaps.....
But we were seeing a thing hapening and we knew it was wrong.....
We based this assessment solely on the actions of the parent doing the berating.
My stance on the situation was... Good kid or bad kid,,,, the parent needed a good solid bitch slap and soon.... be that in real life or metaphoricaly in a court room.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Ouch. The challenge is that you were withnessing abuse, yes. And you were witnessing bad parenting, that for sure. But no-one in the land would formalise this with even a formal warning to the idiot parent.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My heart goes out to you Brian as I hear you say what your grampa did to you. I know I have stated sometime before that I agree with spanking a kid but that is not what your grampa did!! Absolutely not!! That was abuse and he obviously doesnt know the difference or he would have appologized for being out of control and doing what he did to you. There is a vast difference between doing something to encourage discipline and beating someone with a belt and I would never be able to do that to someone.
You should not have to have such a memory to go with in life of a grampa who would treat you that way and say what he did. Same goes for your grandma. I can understand why you would hate all that is religious but I beg you to realize that what they have as religion violates the most precious part of what it means to believe in God. Belief in God predicates that you strive to love and forgive and have tolerance of all others; live the golden rule. I never ceases to amaze me that people who claim to be Christians go against almost everything Christ preached.
It makes me ashamed to say I believe when I hear of others doing such things in the name of God. I hope you can go beyond all that those in your life have tried to try to get you to believe in as God as He is nothing like that really. God bless Brian.
Ken
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