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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I am finding I am more and more comfortable with coming out, though each time is stressful.
Last night, with my permisisin, my wife told her father. Total non event.
Today, by email, I told a friend who is back in contact whom I have not seen since 1972/3 Awaiting reaction, I meet him tomorrow evening anyway
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The email I sent him ended something like "I am now going topress "Send" before I lose my nerve.
He replied:
I'm glad you didn't lose your nerve mate.
I think I always knew anyway.
Thanks for telling me. I feel honoured.
Wow.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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For those of you who are thinking "Wow, this is for me!" let me counsel you: Coming out to people is dangerous. It has to be done when you want to, not when you see someone else doing it, and you have to assess your own risk level and your own comfort with the risk.
Because a friend is coming out does not mean you should do it.
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Was it an old classmate or such? He said he suspected, it kind of requires that he knew you pretty well back then doesn't it?
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 92
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keep up updated  I bet you are gonne come on and say you had the biggest fun in months!
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Over the years I have pushed all my friends away. It's time to start getting them back. This time just those I want back. It's a damned shame one of those refuses to be a friend, but that is his loss.
The evening was great. We met at the gym, chatted, worked out, ate, chatted, came back home for a cuppa and it was as though the years had fallen away.
A good set of omens.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Sometimes, life's so bright, you just gotta wear
shades Friends are the most important thing
you can have, to laugh with, to cry with, to just
sit and be together and not say a word with. And,
while you're opening up and gathering those old
friends back to you, don't forget all your new friends like..........ME! >>hug<<
Sending happy thoughts across the Atlantic because
I know how much it pleased you to reestablish this
connection.
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What are you talking about, smith?
You're absolutely one of the most coherent persons I've ever met. I can't see what on earth ever gave you that idea to begin with, you're doing an amazing job.
Keep it up.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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You do speak very coherently. Most people don't realize what friends mean until they are much older, and some never do.
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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Coming out of the closet is an important part of the therapy. I say therapy because everyone in life needs it to some degree. Coming out (when your ready) is needed because we need society's acceptance--especially if we have hidden our sexuality so long.
I came out to a gay friend of mine and his boyfriend. You would think that this would go very well. NOT. Him and his boyfriend did not believe me at first, and it took quite some time to convince them. I felt that I almost had to kiss one of them. I also think it really changed their impression of me and maybe not for the better. I am not sure about the last one because I have not really talked to them since.
The whole experience was very stressful for me, and it worries me about coming out in the future. So far, I have only come out to them and my wife. I think hearing some of tim's experiences are helpful. However, a number of bad coming out experiences can be very detrimental as well.
I guess I am rambling a bit here, but I think my point is that although coming out is very theraputic if it goes well, it is also harmful it the other person is not very open.
In my case, I think that I need to give my gay friend another chance, but I am very insecure about seeing him again. I was hoping he would try and contact me, but he has not (he is not on-line but he could call).
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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You see you are married. Thus you are "odd" as far as gay people are concerned. They can almost think you are trying to take the piss, or that you aren't serious. The only odd experiences I've had so far have been about three and a half years ago on another board with some idiot who kept telling me that "real gay people don't get married to women". I decided he had his own problems and ignored him.
it IS therapeutic to come out, but only for our won reasons. The reaction of the perons we tell is genuinely not th epoint, it is the telling that is the important thing.
I have almost started to question the "no reaction" type. "What do you mean 'that's ok'?"
I would keep saying "Never come out because someone says you should" unless, of course, that someone is you.
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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I am having trouble understanding how other people's reactions are not important. If we are not looking for acceptance, then why tell? That almost seams like an act of activism against others that may have trouble with the issue. "I'm gay accept me whether you like it or not", which I have nothing against, but you must be very sure of yourself to operate in this manner.
I am very new to this whole thing, and I don't think I can filter out what others think of me. You would now say "If they can't accept you for who you are, then you don't need them ...". You can shed your friends but not your family. In my situation, I have had a number of family problems already. I am not sure I am ready for more. Regardless, I know that I must open up to the world. My hiding my sexuality has caused me to become this very shy individual that was not very sure of himself. Coming out has changed that (mostly). Thus, I need to keep on track as difficult as it is. I just need to pick the right people one at a time.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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While the reactions "matter" we cannot control them. We can hope for a good reaction and be pleased when it happens. But we do not, or I do not, tell people in order to get a reaction.
I tell them in order that I amore comfortable with not hiding. And if they needed me to hide in order to be my friend, then truly they are not friends.
It is not the same things as "out and proud". I think that has had its day. It is just "this is me, and there is a small thing you didn't know that's been hurting me because I have hidden it from you. I am telling you so I no longer have to hurt."
And some will reject us. It is their absolute right to do so. Others wil pretend to accept us and drift away. And te real friends will become closer. But coming out is not a panacea, not the universal aspirin. Done for your reaosns, as a part if self awafreness, with the people chosen well, it IS therapeutic. Done badly it sucks.
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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I agree with your comment about coming out for the right reasons, right people, etc... We once talked about utilizing the right moment to come out. You said that sometimes the conversation is leading in that direction and it all just seams right "so do it". Trevor and I felt that it was better to wait for our spouses approval "and then talk". I am now starting to lean in your direction on this one, and that "the mood" is a very important part process.
However, I have a question whether it is right to come out at all if you are married. My problem is that I am having trouble categorizing the issue of my sexuality. One part of my brain says it is an sexual attraction that I have, while the other thinks it is my being. For the attraction idea, I would put it in the same bin as saying for instance "I am into S & M". Well, that is not something that you normally tell someone, nor is it what they want to know about you. Thus, I would feel uncomfortable telling anyone. Conversly, if it is part of what I am, then is affects how I act and explains why I make certain decisions. If I was gay and single, I can see the latter being the case. However, I am married, don't act gay and have no plans on having a boyfriend, so why is it correct to come out then?
This is just something that has been bothering me. Maybe you and others have some thoughts ...
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I have also been struggling with the issue of coming out now that I am married. I've come out only to a handful of people over the years and never to my family or to hers. But I am becoming much more comfortable with my own sexuality (definitely bisexual) and really don't want to hide it anymore. I have no plans on having a boyfriend either. I am and will always be faithful to my wife. I'm not sure how she would take it if I did tell her and I sure as hell don't want it to break us up. It is the one issue where I have not been totally honest with my wife and that bothers me. But otherwise it seems pointless and could do more harm than good. I've got no answers on this one. Just figured I'd let you know you're not alone.
Think good thoughts,
e
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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One could easily categorise it for "coming out purposes" as a fetish. By which I mean that, for a married man, it could be seen in that category. But I disagree with the concept.
Looked at logically, a fetish is a habit and practice which comes after a choice is made. Being gay is, in my view, not a choice. Thus I conclude that it is not in the same category at all.
We marry because we fall in love, and love is no respecter of gender. We are attracted to those to whom we are sexually attracted because of factors other than love. Many married gay people are fortnate to love and be attracted to their spouses as well as to the natural gender (I was going to say "choice" by accident here, but in this context it works) for us.
Now no heteorsexual person goes about saying "Hi, I'm Tim and I am a heterosexual", but that is because they have no gender pressure causing them stress. A gay perons needs to come out (at the right time and to the right perople) to remove that gender pressure and stress. That they are married is not relevant.
I have surprised my wife by telling friends in the middle of a dinner party (he believed me, she didn't), and surprised them by not telling people when she thought I was going to. And she has surprised me by telling her father. We do it because we need to and know instinctively when the time is right. But we do not usually broadcast it. We drip feed instead. It is neither right nor wrong to come out as a married gay man. It is simply sometimes necessary.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I think the whole "coming out" issue is a totally personal one. I do feel the need, personally, for my one sense of honesty and just generally to feel "freer" to let some people know, eventually. Already, just admitting it to myself and my wife has helped me become a bit less inhibited in other aspects of my life - I'm a pretty "meek" person. But, I agree that for the married person with no intention to change "lifestyle" (I hate that word, but it's appropriate here) - it's largely irrelevant and *could* be considered a private thing, like a fetish. Probably even more so for a bi person - and I consider someone who is physically attracted to even one opposite-gender person (I'm not) "slightly bi."
I think you and your wife (girlfriend, whatever) should agree upon what circumstances "the secret" will be shared. I wouldn't be happy with my wife telling all her friends or my family since I have no intention on coming out much at least until my kids are older and my wife is more comfortable with "the new me." It DID happen - she let a few know because she HAD to talk to someone when I dropped the bomb on her, but now we pretty much talk about it first. It's MY secret, so I'm less inhibited than she is, but she knows best when it comes to her family, for example. Hmm, I digress . . .
If it doesn't make you feel better to come out and is largely irrelevant (who you fantasize about, who turns your head) then I see no real need, personally.
But, one small consideration, for the "betterment of society" - I think it would help to "tweek the thinking" of people who make assumptions about gays, including Darren's gay couple friends - get them to realize that sexual orientation is really, truly distinct from lifestyle and that all labels and classifications of people are at least occasionally wrong.
For example, since my wife's family does REALLY respect me as a person, it may help them accept gays in general to know I am one, maybe. With more than 10 nephews on my wife's side, chances are they may need to talk to someone about minority orientations some day as well. I guess it's just a way to be an example within your circle of friends, for me, the same way I quietly "share" my faith.
Oh, e, please feel free to talk to us about coming out to your wife as you wish, since obviously several of us have been down that road or are still travelling it.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Thanks for the offer to talk about coming out to my wife, I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about your own experiences. It is a rather new thing for me to talk about the gay aspects of my sexuality with anyone. I had a gay friend several years ago who talked a lot about being gay. It took me a long time to come out to him, but when I did, he already knew. His sensing that I was gay was the whole reason he began talking about it with me in the first place. Unfortunately he moved away very shortly after that and I missed much of what could have been a very good opportunity. Even with the anonimity the net provides I have only recently begun to discuss it within the past three or four months. This board is the first place I've found with other married gay men discussing their situation. I've also not seen any negativity here and that certainly helps. As we get to know each other I'm sure we will discuss that and a good many other things.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Why is it necessary to label yourself? Why is it necessary to discuss your sexual preferences with people you are never going to have sex with? I can understand discussing what you like to do in bed with a lover or future lover, because it directly affects them, but to tell the man on the street, or a co-worker that you wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, it is none of their business. And my parents certainly did not discuss their sex life with me. I have yet to see sexual preference on a job application, or loan application, or any other type of application, so why do we feel that we must publicize something so personal and private.
I cannot stand working with people who do not beliieve in doing the job right the first time, yet I work with a bunch of them. So do I go trumpeting my distaste for their work habits to some guy I am talking to over a drink in a bar? No, I do not. I keep my thoughts (and displeasure to myself) and if I have to work with such a person I figure out ways to correct their errors before it affects my work.
Once I recognized within myself that I really don't care what sex the person is that I love and want to have sex with, my emotional status smoothed out tremendously. But that is because I was in turmoil within my own head and heart. But I do not feel the need to go running to my ex-wife, my kids, or my mother and tell them that I like both dicks and cunts (pardon the language). I am much happier now that I have figured out what really trips my trigger, but that is between me and the tripper. IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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Of course one should not tell anyone if we don't want to, I believe that's been repeated often enough in this thread!
Then there are those of us who actually WANT to tell others, even though those 'others' may have little to no business knowing if one really thinks about it.
I for example feel a strange urge to come out to my gym friend; to tell him the person I've been talking about and he thinks is a girl, actually is the other alternative. Why do I feel like this? I don't know. I have no idea how I will handle my real friends, let alone adoptive parents!
I don't really KNOW my gym friend, as I've already mentioned, I don't even know his name. But I still ALMOST told him today.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I agree that we shouldn't label others, generally speaking, since that makes it easier to discriminate and apply preconceived notions which may not be applicable.
For me, still trying to really come to terms with parts of my self and feeling like I've been living a lie most of my life, labelling myself helps me be honest with myself and identify with a group so I don't feel alone.
So, I guess I agree with you in theory and, again, this is a very personal thing - both self-labeling and telling others about yourself.
Me living a lie was messing up my marriage, which is now doing great - the label helped explain some of my actions and feelings to my spouse without me saying "I really don't like YOUR body."
Just like you seem to be a perfectionist, I am probably honest to a fault, so I have a personal need to free myself from the guilt of allowing others to believe a lie.
I also want to help society accept people regardless of the label, so if I can show that my label (gay) is NOT always what most people expect (promiscuous, leather, drag queen, partier, single no kids, immoral, atheist, whatever) I hope I can get a few folks to either ignore the labels or at least expand their thinking a bit.
In your circumstances - divorced and not living a "lie" since you do find some women attractive (presumably, based on your comments) - I can see why you could feel quite different about these issues.
I do think our brains are wired to "catagorize" things rather than deal with too many details of each single instance, so to some degree we are "programmed" to label things. Cars, for example - rather than memorize every make and model, we think "compact, full-size, luxury, pickup, SUV" etc.
Yes, that can get us into trouble when we can't see individuals.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I also despise lables. However I have foiund as wel lthat I am both meeting my own need not to hide any more (a personal need) and am also able to educate. Truly.
By the way, I don't think genitalia has much to do with orientation, oddly. I like GUYS. They have dicks so I liek them too.
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that I do not believe. From what I have read from the married posters here, the one common idea is that they love their wives and are happy with them. Some have said they prefer men in their fantasies, but do not intend to make it fact. Then how does that make your life a lie. If you love the one you are with, and do not want to have extra-marital affairs (either with men or women) then who cares what is in your fantasies?
BTW, I am no where near a perfectionist, I just wish for a perfect world where everyone gets along with everyone else.
Hugs, Charlie
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Labels are not necessarily good or bad. It is how we use them that makes the difference. Labels can assist us with communication. They can help us define who and what we are. No matter what label we assign to ourselves or to others we need to remember every person is an individual. No two are alike. Therefore just because we assign a label we can't expect a person to be exactly like others who also share that label, only similar in regard to whatever the label represents. It is only when we begin to stereotype that labels really begin to become a bad thing because stereotypes rarely allow for individuality.
I don't think I would ever want to discuss my sexuality with people I don't know or don't really care about. To me coming out is a way to allow myself the freedom to be who I am. It means I no longer have to keep things hidden. It means I can start being honest. Since I am married it isn't as important as it might otherwise be. But it would still allow for some freedom and self-expression with my wife and possibly with a few others, though as I have said before sex with anyone who is not my wife is out of the question.
Just as an example, I am writing a story that deals with the feelings I went through as an adolescent and young adult. All the frustration, anxiety, fear, joy, victory, and defeat is demonstrated through the actions of the characters I've created. Each character represents a piece of me, a little voice inside my head. When and if I ever get it finished I'd love to show it to someone I know. I'd love to hear what at least a handful of friends and relatives think about it. But if I don't come out, it won't be possible to show them.
Think good thoughts,
e
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Mostly a lie of omission, and mostly a lie to myself in the past, but like e said, sometimes I'm inhibited or can't say what I truly believe or feel because it would "out" me, so if I "outted" myself first, I would feel free to openly express my views at least to those people.
A quick 'fer instance with one sister- and brother-in-law, who we usually stay with when visiting that town full of inlaws: They seem to keep bringing up the subject of gays, for whatever reason, after the kids are in bed and my brother in law once or twice half-jokingly said something to the effect of "he's not too bad looking." Well, lately I've only been more and more quite during these discussions, which is probably a bit uncomfortable for everyone, if not outright suspicious. Who knows, maybe he has something HE wants to say?
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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My suggestion is next time one of these conversations happens, state your opinions. The worst that could ever happen is that they ask you if you are gay or not. However, you are married and that question does not tend to be posed to guys with wives. The problem with being quiet about a subject that you know so much about is that it causes you to be unsure of yourself and who you are. This is what I notice of myself and I would probably react just like you, even though I know it is wrong. IMHO anyway.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I may not have the nerve to tell this one, though I don't know why. He and I used with the mate I met last week to go on weekend kayak trips. But a different person and a different decision
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Further out of the closet 
That's great! Good for you. 
) seems that the world s changing or better than we think 
I may find out about those tonight!
Smiling For You 
I hate fucking labels! 
