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So wheres what happend last night^^ lol.
I found this Christian CD Lastnight, and it was by a bacd caslled MercyMe. lol.
I FUCKIN LOVE THAT BAND! XD lol.
so anyway, there was a track on it, called "I Can Only Imagine."
And I started listening to it, and I love the song.
And then, lastnight, I also went to see a movie, called "Second Chance" starring Micheal W. Smith, and some other personm who I'm not familiar with. lol.
I LOVE Micheal W. Smith^^ lol. His Music is awesome^^ And the movie was AWESOME^^ lol.
It was an awesome movie^ lol. (already said that =P)
Anyway, I was wondering (once its all said and done..)
Are there any Gay Christians? lol. This may have already been answered in a previous post I made, but I still wanna ask. =P
Sooo... are there? Cause I think I'm turning into one. =P
I'm even gonna buy myself a MearcyMe CD today^^ If I can go to Barrie to get one^^ lol. I love their music^^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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Hi Josh,
>Are there any Gay Christians?
Millions. Though I doubt very many of them belong to the fire-and-brimstone denominations. I know a couple of people who are avid worshippers as part of the Church of England. I expect there are many more, but I don't know very many gay people in real life.
On the whole, though, the people who crop up around here are those who are disenchanted with what they have been told, or learnt; or who prefer to work out their own morality. That means that they are more likely to be agnostic or atheists. But there are also a lot of gay people who just... er... go with the flow, and never end up questioning the purpose of religion.
Personally, I'd be hesitant about turning into a Christian on the basis of art alone. I love choral music, organ music, Christian paintings, poetry, literature, sculpture -- but I see it as reflecting the glory of the human imagination, and by extension, the glory of the universe, rather than the glory of God.
David
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From the purely statistical POV about 10% of all Christians should be gay.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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It depends if you define a Christian as someone who believes in God, or someone who says he is a Christian. Or was brought up a Christian.
Or whether you count a repressed homosexual as being gay.
Or, indeed, if you believe that 10% figure. It doesn't mean "10% of the population both defines itself as gay and has exclusively gay relationships."
David
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NOW OF COURSE...^^
My grama is totally gonna get me into a Christian Youth Group. XD lol.
So its gonna be LOADS of fun^^ and of course, i'll act like a girl, since I practically AM one, well not really, but i act like a girl ALL THE TIME! XD
anyway. we'll see how it all goes^^ MEOW!^_^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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I'm gay and a Christian believer, although not the fire-and-brimstone sort of person. To my great pride and pleasure I was recently labelled as a 'liberal' by an angry opponent in the readers' columns of a national newspaper, in a discussion about gay marriage. I have always liked to ask questions, which has from time to time caused some annoyance among colleagues and friends, and I tend to be suspicious about people who present easy ways out of religious or logical dilemmas, whether they call themselves religious or not. There is a deep distaste in me for religious and political organizations which do their utmost to squeeze people into conformity, and if I hadn't found the room within my church for free and independent thinking, and had good friends there who are at least as rebellious as I am, I would probably have left it.
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>Personally, I'd be hesitant about turning into a Christian on the basis of art alone. I love choral music, organ music, Christian paintings, poetry, literature, sculpture -- but I see it as reflecting the glory of the human imagination, and by extension, the glory of the universe, rather than the glory of God.< wrote Deeej.
[Also add architecture to the list, particularly the architecture of our great cathedrals and other churches.]
Deeej, what would you call the source of inspiration - as distinct from the motivation - for many of these artistic works? I would call it God, but that is my way of trying to understand God. For me God is the driving force behind the universe.
I am a Christian through upbringing, another word is culture, but despite trying not to, I am starting to question the tenets of the Christian faith and I am not coming up with the answers which that Faith demands.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Hi Nigel,
Quite right -- I did forget architecture.
>Deeej, what would you call the source of inspiration - as distinct from the motivation - for many of these artistic works? I would call it God, but that is my way of trying to understand God. For me God is the driving force behind the universe.
Where does inspiration come from? It comes from looking at the world around you, listening to what people say, watching what people do, questioning everything, thinking "what if?", and, most important of all, being ready to consider and develop every little idea to see where it leads.
It's entirely unnecessary to attribute it to God. Saying that inspiration comes from God implies that it is impossible to understand: it just "is". But I maintain that every one of mankind's greatest works -- works afterwards termed inspired -- can be traced backwards to something the artist has seen or heard. They are just prepared to work harder to improve it than everyone else.
David
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Hi Josh,
Out of interest, what do Christian youth groups do?
Which denomination would this one be part of (if any)?
David
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hey Deeej
I have no idea what Christian Youth Groups do. lol. Probably since I've never been to one^^ lol. *blush* i really dont know. lol^^
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... is Gene Robinson, the Episcopalian Bishop of New Hampshire - but there are dozens of other gay priests in the Episcopalian Church. Slowly, but surely, we're gettin' there!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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ProfZodiac
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Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 115
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I am a gay Christian. And you might even consider me one of the fire-and-brimstone denominations: I'm Roman Catholic.
Let me see if I can get the basics of my story down:
I've been Catholic my whole life. Gone to church every Sunday since I was four, completed CCD classes, got Confirmed, the whole nine yards. When I began fifth grade, I became a lector (reader), and I was good at it. Not long before ninth grade, I began to sing in the church choir, another thing I was good at. People in my church knew me and knew my family because we all cared enough about the church, about the faith, to participate in the Masses on a regular basis like that.
In May 2004, the Archdiocese of Boston announced it was going to close 80-odd parishes to cut costs. My parish was included, the parish I would belong to when I moved to Boston for school was included, the neighboring parish to my hometown one was included. The decision process for how these churches were picked to be closed was extremely flawed and unfair, but that's another story for another day. Anyway, the point is that at this juncture, I stepped up my participation. When faithful Catholics whose parishes were being closed began to occupy the churches 24/7 to prevent the closures, I joined that guerrilla movement and slept in my church several times to help save it.
I suppose this threw a lot of people off my trail, to bluntly put my path to coming out. I eventually had a serious falling out with the people who led my church's particular vigil, and I stopped participating. I left the church, strictly in a participatory sense, until last February, two months after I came out. It was about then that I found Dignity/USA.
Dignity/USA is a GLBT Catholic set of churches across the country. Boston happens to be one of the largest branches. Dignity is non-hierarchical, meaning the Cardinal has no control over what we do. The Masses are complete in nearly every way, and they are liberal in just as many - female and married priests, genderless pronouns during prayers, everything. Where during your average Mass, the congregation shakes hands to demonstrate peace, at a Dignity Mass, everybody gets a warm hug from just about everybody else.
I went very regularly for about two months before my work and school schedules began to conflict with the weekly Mass, and I haven't been back since June or July. But I continue to receive regular emails from some folks over there, asking how I've been, hoping I can get back to going consistently, etc. It's an extremely welcoming group of people, and they let you maintain your Catholic identity from your youth while allowing and encouraging you to keep your gay identity as well. It's really helped me reconcile the two.
I suppose that this little long-winded post might not mean much, but I thought I should at least note that there are gay communities out there, and some are even of the old-school faiths. It's just a matter of finding them.
Good luck -
Adam
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Cossie said,
>there are dozens of other gay priests in the Episcopalian Church
... only dozens?
David
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Adam, welcome to posting on this MB. I hope you will visit here and post here often.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR said,
>Adam, welcome to posting on this MB. I hope you will visit here and post here often.
Seconded. Adam, I found your post very interesting -- please do continue to post; we don't get viewpoints like yours very often.
I used to go to church (or at least chapel) freqently, because I sang in my school choir (bog-standard Church of England/Anglo-Catholicism). Nowadays I don't, partly because I don't believe in God, but mostly because none of the churches round here have decent music.
David
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Welcome, Adam!
Good to see you!
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Hi David
I don't think I can argue against what you are saying. For me it is a question of terminology and perhaps it's just for my own intellectual satisfaction - call it a tidying up exercise - that I combine those things into my notion of God which is based on the power that drives the universe.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have a good friend just a way north of Chicago who was baptised RC and moved to Greek Orthodox. He is a devout Christian and a gay man who dates other gay men. He's my age or so, and he sees no conflict between his faith and his orientation.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... though I admit that it's possibly a matter of semantics. But it seems to me that it is logically valid to argue that if works of art are inspired by a belief in God, then they are inspired by God. Whether God actually exists is not relevant in reaching this conclusion; all that matters is the state of mind of the artist. Put another way, although 'inspire' is an active verb, the state of being inspired does not require active input from the source of inspiration. Thus it is immaterial whether the perceived source actually exists. Or is this all a bit too philosophical?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but most traditional Episcopalian Parish Priests are married, with wives who dedicate themselves to uplifting parish activisties (or have I read too much Agatha Christie?) and nowadays a fair number of parish priests are female. Single males are in a minority, and by no means all will be gay, so I didn't feel justified in proposing 'hundreds' rather than 'dozens'. But I'm always willing (albeit reluctantly!) to bow to superior knowledge!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... on two separate levels.
First off, am I right in inferring from what you say that the church you recently attended maintains the essential tenets of the Roman Catholic faith, but is independent of it? Putting it another way, whilst your church would presumably respect the validity of the consecration of a priest in the mainstream Catholic hierarchy, that hierarchy would not reciprocate such respect? If so your church is following in hallowed footsteps, because most Christian sects came into being by a similar mechanism. If we can learn anything from history, the important thing at this stage of development is to protect your new church from the possibility of hijack by more extreme elements.
Secondly, this business of 'a warm hug'. I grew up in the Anglican (=Episcopalian) Church in the UK, where that Church is very wide indeed, embracing everything from neo-Methodism to neo-Catholicism. I was at the Catholic end of the spectrum (incense, crucifixes, the whole nine yards) but when the Anglican Communion introduced handshakes and hugs (thirty-odd years ago) I felt that these rapidly became perfunctory and insincere. It's one of the things which drove me from the Church. I would argue unreservedly for tolerance, acceptance and inclusion, but I still very much prefer the ritual of the 1662 Prayer Book - the Anglican equivalent of the Tridentine Mass. I felt that succesfu religious ritual requires two elements - a ceremony which is impressive and inspiring (regardless of whether the liturgy is wholly understood) and a sermon or address which is equally inspiring, and which IS wholly understood. I wouldn't wish to lose the baby with the bathwater, but that's what happened in the Anglican Church. What do you think?
And, lastly, thank you Adam for a thoughtful and worthwhile contribution to our exchanges. If you are here, there's a lot you share with us. Please stay, and help the rest of us in what we try to do - and, most of all, that is to help young gays and to assure them that they are not alone.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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A warm hug means nothing if its not backed by love, caring, concern, warm feelings and mutual respect. A hug, just for the sake of the hug is plastic and not sincere, so means nothing.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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.... and exactly how I felt about it.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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ProfZodiac
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Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 115
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Thanks for the kind thoughts and words. I hope I can cover most of what was mentioned:
Yes, a traditionally-ordained Catholic priest is fully respected as such, and is free to celebrate Mass, at a Dignity Mass. However, due to the fact that we use married and female priests, as well as lay-led liturgies, it's safe to say that the Catholic hierarchy would not respect the majority of the persons who hold our Masses.
We do follow the tenets of the Church, for the most part - the Mass structure is the same; I've seen a handful of the Sacraments performed; etc. And I know they perform full-fledged marriages. Go Massachusetts.
I can't truthfully speak to the Anglican faith and the sincerity of the gesture of peace within it, but in non-Dignity churches that I've been to in the past, I would agree to an extent. When I was in the choir, it seemed as if the choir members really interacted in that regard with each other - and we all knew and liked each other, so it was a bit more genuine than when I sat outside the choir area. In the average pew, it was everybody just mechanically shaking hands and saying, "peace of Christ" or something along those lines. In the choir, at least people did want you to be well.
At Dignity, in my limited experience anyway, it seems very true. The entirety of the Eucharistic Prayer is celebrated with the congregation in a circle with hands joined around the altar. Long sections of it are recited in unison by the entire group. And at the sign of peace, the hugs continue for a solid couple of minutes. Some seem real, some seem a bit forced, I will admit. But the group overall is remarkably welcoming. It certainly wouldn't take much socializing for any hugs that were less than with pure intentions to become more legitimate.
Yeah, and I don't really plan on leaving in the near future. When I find a message board to post on, I tend to see it through for a while. I've got a history with message boards. 
Looking forward to participating throughout the forum,
Adam
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I have a problem with the direction that this dicussion on inspiration is going. Is everything in art that is sublime divinely inspired? I think not. One of the greatest composers of all time (so far) was Richard Wagner, who singlehandedly revolutionized western music and wrote some of the most sublime music imaginable. (Even allowing for taste, we must accept that his detractors recognise his genius.) Yet this man, as a human being, was utterly despicable (and even his supporters admit this). So where does the sublime inspiration come from when the inspired is about as godless as one can imagine?
I have a very, very dear friend who is a composer; he visits this MB infrequently. He told me that a successful piece of music is 1% inspiration and 99% sweat and tears.
In brief: how are we explain the genius of someone like Wagner if we also posit a divine aetiology for inspiration?
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR, I think you have reversed the logic here. My contention is that the source of inspiration for many great people, a lot of them artists in the widest sense of the word, is God or their belief in God. I am not saying that all inspiration comes from God. How can it when it concerns godless people?
This leads on to whether the Devil can be a source of inspiration, but then we must define what we understand by the Devil. That opens a new can of worms.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I hate to be the spool sport in all this, but religion has absolutely nothing to do with God. Man created religion for his own benefit and has absolutely nothing to do with what God wants.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian said,
>Man created religion for his own benefit and has absolutely nothing to do with what God wants.
Presumably if the 'real' God created Man with free will and the creativity to construct organised religion, he wanted Man to do it?
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It's good to see that you have found a place where you are fully accepted for who you are, and that when you aren't able to attend their services regularly they welcome you back. The DignityUSA seems to be a very good place and I wish that their work for reform in the mother Church will be succesful, although it may take some patience.
At the same time it's a pity that you had to leave what you had and find a new church in order to be accepted for who you are. I hope that you are happy and that you still have your family and friends with you and on your side!
God bless!
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The older I get the more I'm inclined to agree with you, Brian. Religons, churches or whatever we want to call them, are man's way of creating logical systems with images of God and God's will which people can understand and relate to without too much difficulty. But religion is also used to control people and keep them in check, with religious leaders granting themselves the authority to condemn to eternal fire, or a sudden death, those who don't comply with the leadership's interpretations of tenets and dogma, which are often defined to maintain and strengthen their own positions of power.
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Along the same line..
Many of the beautiful churches and palaces of Rome were built during the renaissance and baroque periods by popes and cardinals who were inspired by an urge to present themselves and the church as a potent secular and political force in the power struggle between church and royalty. Some cardinals and popes were notably corrupt. Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) allegedly committed his first murder at the age of twelve. It's difficult to find much divine inspiration there, but the architecture, represented by e.g. Fontana di Trevi or St. Peter's Basilika, is no less breathtaking.
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It's not difficult see inspiration in a spider’s web, the architecture is breathtaking.
Gary
Navyone
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Deeej wrote:
> Brian said,
> >Man created religion for his own benefit and has absolutely nothing to do with what God wants.
>
> Presumably if the 'real' God created Man with free will and the creativity to construct organised religion, he wanted Man to do it?
Wanted? No. made it posisble, yes. If I am god and give you free will, I cannot express my wants in your actions any more.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It was not a serious question, just a thought.
However, I don't believe in free will. From a strictly scientific point of view, I don't see any evidence that such a construct exists. It may be impossible in practical terms (due to the extreme complexity of the brain) to explain why we make a decision, but I see no reason to believe that it is not technically possible to explain it. Once every single neuron, weighting, input and output is taken into account, there is most likely no choice.
This still applies even if true randomness on the atomic or subatomic level plays a role in creativity and decision making. For, given given a certain set of results, there is no alternative.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I accept the theoretical possibilty that we may one day be able to map the microphysical activity of the brain, but I can't see how - or indeed why - that should impinge upon free will. I'm not going to embark upon a dissertation - my typing fingers are getting sore - but mankind has reached the summit of the evolutionary pyramid because of his intelligence.
Intelligence involves, inter alia, the ability to make choices. Greater experience, together with greater intelligence, increases both the number of options and the ability to choose wisely between them.
I accept that computers can be programmed to play chess to a very high standard, but they are not infallible - and the options in life far exceed those available in chess.
Man is not bound by logic; he can anticipate illogical reactions and derive advantage from them. He can act in an illogical way to confuse an opponent. However accurately the microphysical activity of his brain may be measured, I cannot see a valid case for arguing that the neurons, et al, do not respond to his commands. I don't for a moment accept that I am an automaton, though I'm not quite so sure about Deeej ....
Incidentally, though I'm not a card-carrying Christian and I seriously doubt the possibility of any kind of afterlife, I have no quarrel with Christianity nor any other religion so long as it does not seek to interfere in the way I choose to live my own life. But I do recognise that religious faith is a comfort to lots of people, and whilst I think that it is legitimate to argue philosophically that God doesn't exist, I don't think it's fair to make fun of religion, as has happened in some recent posts. I thought that tolerance was the name of the game!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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