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I get all sorts of stuff in my mailbox. Yesterday I received a very long (and very learned) article about homosexuality. There was one section in it that is causing me some difficulty, and I would be glad if people here could express their views on this passage:
Among males homosexual acts are practically always adolescent. When they reach the maturity to form permanent gay unions, it is despite that adolescence rather than because of it. In contrast, among females, lesbian unions are generally mature ones.
As they used to tell me in school: discuss (in as many or as few words as you like).
JFR
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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JFR wrote:
>Among males homosexual acts are practically always adolescent.
To me the key word is adolescent, not homosexual (in males). Based solely upon my own experience, small boys, of which I was one once, discuss sex openly and curiously from the age of eight, often earlier.
There are exceptions, but, in the main they discuss it in school, they titter about it, they pretend they have "done it with a girl", they are either woefully shy and hid genitalia when changing for games (me), or are exhibitionist (like Johnny Grose who used to display his large dick for us all to see in the changing rooms when he was nine).
Any reference in schoolwork to sex is giggled over. Some references are even constructed and giggled over.
The act of masturbation is discussed and they wonder what sperm looks like. This can lead to trivial mutual exploration. It can lead to anal penetration either out of curiosity about the act itself or "let's practice for when we have girlfriends"
Above all it leads to orgasm, orgasm, orgasm. Once a small boy discovers what his dick will do for him there is almost nothing that can prevent him from doing it again and again and again. And if he can get someoen else's hand or other body part on it, then, he reasons, that is "just like sex" because it is someone else, and must feel better.
So, if my pontification is right, and if we define adolescence as "that phase when a child becomes aware and growns towards and into an adult", then boys have sex with each other carelessly and purely for fun. For a very few of is it is more than fun, but an impending way of life because it is what we are, sexually.
>When they reach the maturity to form permanent gay unions, it is despite that adolescence rather than because of it.
To me this sentence is "filler". The paragraph was too short without it, so it was added.
>Among females, lesbian unions are generally mature ones.
But this says nothing about little girls! having spoken to girls about "stuff like this" I can say with limited authority that girls do not discuss sex in anywhere like the same manner as boys. A girl can get pregnant. Whiole that is an argument in favour of adolescent and adult lesbian sex it is invalid, since most girls are uninterested in sex, sex, sex. They are wired differently (generalisation), and are more interested in emotional relationships instead of sexual ones.
Loads of girlie stories have been written about "pashes on the gym mistress", and "crushes", but these tend, in general, to be hero worship and asexual.
But lesbian relationshiops are not built on hero worhsip, they are built, as are male homosexual relationships, on love and also underlying sexual attraction.
>So where does this leave the initial paragraph?
I think it leaves it in disarray. It does not even try to compare like with like. All it says is really about boys, and it states the obvious in terms of sexual exploration.
We know how easy it is for a boy to become randomly aroused and have a quick orgasm. Those of us who are girls or who have had a sexual relationship with girls know (a) how challenging it can be for a girl to acheive orgasm and (b) how extremely challenging it can be for their partner to assist them to achieve one. Many mature ladies have never had an orgasm, or don't know if they have had one.
Certainly in adolescence the orgasm is king for a boy, so does the challenge of the female orgasm make a lesbian sexual experience as an adolescent less likely?
Add to that the training by parents "Do not let anyone touch you there!" that leads to inhibition. Add odd terms like "front bottom" and the huge farago about "dirty places" ans "always wipe backwards away form that", and you get a created set of inhibitions about genitalia.
>Conclusions?
None, really. The paragraph is rehtoric, not fact.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I think there is some truth in the statement. As always though it neglects the social historical contexts of homosexual life, and is only a snippet of what is more overtly known within the context of a world where it is generally still an unacceptable way of life.
Hypothetically I have always liked to imagine the myriad of possibilities that our lives would be able to shape into if we didn’t have to live with the fear and or the consequences of being openly gay. We do have some obscure glimpses from the ancient past or from cultures that are very different from our own to begin with that shed a very different light.
As things stand, and I know this will draw some ire of some, I think most gay relationships today are caricatures emulated from mass media.
What if, what if?? My last relationship was many years ago when I was 40 and he 42. We were so fare outside the “scene” always into alternative life styles. Not that we would be into labels but most would have called us hippies to look at us. It was mature in every way and even though it was from him that I acquired HIV I would still be with him if it hadn’t been for when and the frequency he drank. Same old story, he was a great guy when he was sober. Another consequence of modern day attitudes towards anything that is outside what the mindless masses would consider the “norm”. Mind you, I am not angry or embittered at how even the “learned” seem to see the world with blinders, just somewhat saddened.
The potential I see in the uniqueness of the individuality of us all “sighs”
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Adolescence, when I was young at any rate, brought a vast array of interested "partners" in the game called.... well, it wasn't called anything.... It was "queer" to discuss the game but once the game had started any and all variables to the rules of conduct as well as participation were open for consideration....
ALL THE BOYS WANTED TO PLAY THE GAME.... All of them.... Without exception, either by their suggestion (either for a sleepover or the sharing of a tent on boy scout campouts), or by my own innitiative there was ALWAYS an opportunity for sex.... And I use the word SEX because I mean SEX.... Not by any stretch any of that innoscent "I'll shou you mine if you show me yours".... I MEAN SEX.... The rules were simple.... Any suggestion will be considered and all mutual aggrements honored....
Nothing was "out of bounds" and no time was innappropriate.
As time passed the arena changed but the game stayed steadfastly the same.
Once in a perminate relationship, well, the game just stayed the same only the intensity of it's playing grew with the continued exchange of ideas and innovation that only prolonged exposure to a constant source of stimulation will foster.
And, well, the love helped too.......
As for girls, well, I guess they are here for a reason, I just don't know what it is....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Well, in one sense of course it is hardly news.
Surely, for mainly-or-exclusively straight boys who experiment with homosexuality, it is typically done during the age of experimentation called adolescence. And a lot of them do ... around 35% of all males have had some homosexual expeerience leading to orgasm, mainly during youth.
But it is equally true that for mainly-or-exclusively GAY boys who experiment with HETEROsexuality, it is typically done during the age of experimentation called adolescence. I don't have any figures on what proportion of gay men have slept with a woman at least once - but in my own small circle of aquaintances it is around the same (about a third).
In neither case do I think that experimentation with one's non-preferred gender has any bearing on one's mature relationships.
But if the author means that homosexual acts by a GAY man are indicative of development arrested at an adolescent stage, this is nonsense. Sure, it was the orthodox Freudian position in the 1950s - but things have changed, and my last analyst was an orthodox Freudian who cheerfully described this view as "total bollocks".
Now, having said all this, I will accept that for an older person, who is in a stable long-term relationship (usually marriage), to play around with other people of either sex *may* indicate a lack of maturity ... which *may* be adolescent ... but this is so far removed from "practically always" as to be clearly not what the writer of the quotation meant.
As for Lesbians, I suspect that timmy is right to suggest that the emotional experience is typically more important and relevant than the physical one - and I think he's probably right that cultural repression may play a part in that. But my experience of Lesbians is limited.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Marc wrote:
> As for girls, well, I guess they are here for a reason, I just don't know what it is....
Ummm ... they help keep up a supply of boys?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Hi JFR,
It sounds like a gross generalisation to me. Some of us have neither been involved in homosexual "acts", nor do I feel that there is any link in my case between [whatever I did not do as an adolescent] and my desire for a gay union.
To be entirely honest, I'm finding this whole conversation rather distressing, so I'll stay out of it.
David
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Is this dude suggesting that because were gay, we must be immature? Str8t people are more mature and so better able to handle a relationship and will prosper better in the world. Or that were gay because we never developed beyond Adolescents. Lets see, all the great thinkers, artist, engineers, craftsmen, and yes, even great military men (Alexander the great) were not mature and were childish. I think this guy needs a shrink, help him get over his homophobia.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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NW wrote:
But if the author means that homosexual acts by a GAY man are indicative of development arrested at an adolescent stage, this is nonsense. Sure, it was the orthodox Freudian position in the 1950s - but things have changed, and my last analyst was an orthodox Freudian who cheerfully described this view as "total bollocks".
You know, when I first read this material I understood that that was what he was saying (and, like David, it distressed me). So I am very glad to agree with you and your analyst, NW. What struck me, though, was the fact that I (happen?) to know gay men of middle age who fantasize about adolescents rather than men of their own age - and they are not pedophiles.
Surely there is a difference between physical attraction and an aesthetic appreciation of the beauty of the adolescent male body, which, to my mind, can be very attractive. But even then, I would prefer to drool over 18-30 year olds rather than 13-17 year olds.
I am not even sure that my last comment is relevant to this thread at all.
JFR
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And someone has to do the windows.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I don't think it's that, Brian -- s/he is suggesting that gay sex on its own is a childish/adolescent thing, but that those people who form gay couples are able to transcend that and see past the desire for "just" sex. In other words, they are the ones who are more psychologically mature.
So -- sex for sex's sake: bad. A loving relationship: good.
In contrast, lesbians are apparently less interested in sex for sex's sake, and more interested in loving relationships, but they are likely to get into this position only when they are older.
That was my reading of it, anyway.
David
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JFR wrote:
> What struck me, though, was the fact that I (happen?) to know gay men of middle age who fantasize about adolescents rather than men of their own age - and they are not pedophiles.
>
And straight men often fantasise about "schoolgirls" - see page three pinup pix in the Sun (UK tabloid newspaper) - let alone any straight porn!
We often get told by straight media that gay men are child-molesters, and it can be difficult not to internalise some of it, sometimes. But honestly, sometimes we worry too much - I know I do! I don't really think it's an area where gay men are any different from straight ones.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Hi JFR,
You said,
>You know, when I first read this material I understood that that was what he was saying (and, like David, it distressed me).
I did say I wasn't going to participate again in this thread, but it seems I have, so ... hmm.
My reading of the section is in my reply to Brian, and I do not think it has changed: I did not read it as saying that all gay men are immature, though I do read it that those who are preoccupied with sex and not interested in lasting relationships are. The problem I had with it was that it makes so many assumptions that do not hold in my, particular, case.
On the whole, academic works that pertain to sexuality will make generalisations based upon sexual acts: mutual masturbation, intercourse, solo masturbation, etc. They usually draw a strong link between sexual acts, fantasies and sexuality. This is no exception: the text implies that gay relationships are contrary to the basic instinct for sex, sex, sex. I am in the apparently unique position that I have never had sex, never achieved an orgasm, never ejaculated: and while I have a desire for intimacy and a long-term relationship, I do not have a desire for sex per se (though I expect I will experience something like it some day). Thus I am in the interesting position of having a sexuality without sex -- and so I tend to be irritated by the suggestion that it all comes down to sex in the end. I know that, at the very least, this must be a gross simplification.
I have to say that part of my distress was due to Timmy's pontification on orgasm. There is nothing quite like someone talking about the most wonderful thing in the world, something simple and marvellous and natural, and not being able to have it, to upset a person! Throwaway lines such as, "We know how easy it is for a boy to become randomly aroused and have a quick orgasm." I don't. Obviously Timmy was not addressing me specifically, so I cannot blame him for saying it.
I expect I might be of great interest to a psychologist who specialises in these things. Not that I have any particular interest in providing an experimental subject. I'd rather be normal.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Sorry Deej, I was making a generaisation. Those of us with any form of sexual dysfunction notice these things when others generalise. I simply didn't want to single you out for special mention as an exception.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
I understand that -- in retrospect, I'm sorry for bringing up the matter, but as I found myself elaborating to JFR just to point out that I was not distressed (incidentally, distressed is a bit too strong a word, really) for the same reason as he, I felt I needed to explain my full rationalisation, which included (though not exclusively) your post.
Your post was relevant and it is of course entirely appropriate for you to have posted it. It's just a "me" thing, I think -- one I hope that will pass in time.
Hugs,
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Sex for sex sake is by no means bad......
It is an enjoyable pastime.....
As for leisbans not being into sex for sex sake.... Tell that to my friend who was stopped at a check point when boarding a plane and asked to remove her silver bullet....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is there any particular reason that you didn't post the entire article?
Some of us might like to read it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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That's not my opinion. That is my reading of JFR's quotation.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I'm up for that too, if available
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc wrote:
Is there any particular reason that you didn't post the entire article?
Hi, Marc.
Yes there are a couple of reasons. Firstly, it is very long, very abstruse and much of it quite irrelevant. Secondly, much of it is in such quasi-professional language that I would imagine that I am the only one on this MB who might understand what the hell he was talking about. (Yes, it was a 'he'.) Thirdly, and most importantly, since it was sent to me in professional confidence I could not and would not betray that confidence by publishing what he wrote: after all, APOS is in the public domain.
However, if I can find the mental energy needed to do so, I will try to post further extracts.
Thanks a million for all the interest.
JFR
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Yeah David I think you are seeing it the same way I do myself. I must count myself in the minority of boys who seem to get stuck in the adolescent phase of things and never seem to get beyond it to form loving relationships be they gay or straight.
Ken
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