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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > visited a 9/11 memorial yesterday
visited a 9/11 memorial yesterday  [message #35405] Sun, 10 September 2006 20:22 Go to next message
E.J. is currently offline  E.J.

Really getting into it
Location: U.S.
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 565



The temporary memorial is located at a civil war battlefield park near where I live. I expected it to be borring and kind of stupid, but it wasn't.

In a field about 10 acres in size approximately 3000 10 foot high flags are set up in neat rows. 1 flag for each person killed in the attack.

I don't quite know how to describe what I was feeling as I walked through the flags, it's an emotion that I have not felt before.
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(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
another picture  [message #35406 is a reply to message #35405] Sun, 10 September 2006 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
E.J. is currently offline  E.J.

Really getting into it
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(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
Re: visited a 9/11 memorial yesterday  [message #35407 is a reply to message #35405] Sun, 10 September 2006 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800



I can understand totally how the USA was affected by this atrocity. It was visible, unexpected and an act if "undeclared war" designed to spread the maximum fear and confusion.

Without denigrating that shock or the suffering of those who died in fear or those who loved them or simply knew them, I think there is a time when the USA as a nation must get a sense of proportion, too. At present it feels to me in the UK, where we have had terrorism and acts of destruction through declared wars for a very long time that only the terrorist wins when these events are turned into national days of mourning. I count our own incident last year in July as one such memorial day which has been generated by the US "9/11" terminology.

I long to scream "It was an atrocity, but get over it" with regard to these unpleasant and evil things. Again this is not in any way to denigrate any memories. Instead it is to start winning the war on terrorism in the only way possible - by starving it of the oxygen it needs in order to grow.

Let's rememebr the dead and injured. Of course we should. But let us forget the terrorist.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: visited a 9/11 memorial yesterday  [message #35409 is a reply to message #35407] Sun, 10 September 2006 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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Location: USA
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We hold elections in November because that’s the best time of year to pick a Turkey.

That being said, I don’t think we can ever forget the Terrorists, be they Anti Gay Terrorists, Anti Black Terrorists, Anti Jewish Terrorists, Anti United States Terrorists, Anti Infidel Terrorists, or Anti any Democratic Countries Terrorists.

Remember the Alamo, Remember the Main, Rember Pear Harbor and now Remember 9-11.

We must be ever vigilante to keep our selves safe.

I have always hoped that our President had information that the general public was not privy to, that guided his decisions. I am no longer sure of that. There are a lot of good men in our government and I believe that if something was terribly wrong one or more of them would stand up and tell us. Most of them are wealthy to start with. So a loss of party support only means they may lose an election.

I pose a question? Why have there been no further Terrorists Attacks in the United States since 9-11?

Not withstanding that there could be one at any minute.

I don’t think the vast majority of United States Citizens are overly concerned of future terror attacks. (But they dam well aught to be).

Our illegal immigrant problem is no small thing and all we do is give it lip service. (Grant you 99 9/10 of them are not terrorists. They just want a job)

Billions to build a wall. What a joke. How did the Great Wall of China and the Berlin wall work out.

If our Democratic and Republican elected officials put 10% of the time they spend discrediting each other into doing something to feed the poor, house the homeless, provide medical coverage for those who need it, we would be making great strides.

Within a year two at the most we will be out of Iraqi. Then I believe Civil War will break out there. All the deaths for nothing.

As a side note a lot of people made a lot of money due to the 9-11 attack. So if it was an attack against Capitalism if failed miserably.

Just Venting.


Gary

Navyone
In response  [message #35410 is a reply to message #35409] Sun, 10 September 2006 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Location: Berkshire, UK
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Messages: 3281



Navyone said:
>As a side note a lot of people made a lot of money due to the 9-11 attack. So if it was an attack against Capitalism if failed miserably.

Oh, yes, a lot of people did. But a hell of a lot of people lost just as much, if not a great deal more. Huge amounts of money were diverted from worthwhile causes to counter-intelligence. Money poured into defence which might have been spent on better things (had the "war on terror" never started). Enormous insurance losses. Established corporations going under. Not to mention global paranoia and fear, largely peddled by opportunistic governments. You can't put a price on that, but in my opinion it is far greater than any monetary loss.

>We must be ever vigilant to keep our selves safe.

Who is 'we'? On the whole, ordinary people were already being vigilant to the greatest possible extent. If by 'we' you mean the government, it is impossible for the government to watch out for every single individual. This means that hugely complicated and economically crippling security measures can never be guaranteed to work. It is my personal opinion -- and indeed, I think this has traditionally been the British attitude -- that it is better to accept that one can never be truly safe than to turn the whole country into a police state.

>I don’t think the vast majority of United States Citizens are overly concerned of future terror attacks. (But they dam well aught to be).

I think everyone needs to realise there is the possibility. But also that there is very little that they can do about it, so it should be business as usual. Always. That is the best possible legacy for those who died in terrorist attacks -- so that their deaths did not also mean the death of our way of life, either in the name of fear, or, just as importantly, in the name of security.

>I pose a question? Why have there been no further Terrorists Attacks in the United States since 9-11?

If your assumption is that this is because the security efforts are working, I do not agree. Security has been just as high, if not higher, in the UK and we had a terrorist attack last year and a supposed attempted one this year. I assume it is a question of organisation and opportunity -- things we cannot, as individuals, have any knowledge about until the plot either succeeds or fails.

David
Re: In response  [message #35411 is a reply to message #35410] Sun, 10 September 2006 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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Granted no amount of money can make up for the Death or Injury of a loved one. But almost everyone was given tremendous monetary support. Then you have the money being made from cleanup and new construction. As far as Insurance Company losses, Hard Cheese. That’s what they are in business for. A tremendous amount of money was also paid to businesses for loss of business. I would guess that the overall monetary gains far outweighed the monetary losses. I am not talking about any government funding for counter-intelligence or money poured into defense.


The we is all of the above. I agree with your every word.



My question also goes for the UK. Why are there not more attacks? I make no assumption. Just puzzled.



Gary

Navyone
Difficult Problem.  [message #35412 is a reply to message #35405] Mon, 11 September 2006 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

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Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
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Messages: 1699



First off, my apologies for being absent from the board for the last ten days or so. I had a short holiday break, followed by a period of less-than-marvellous health, but now I've come back to stir the pudding!

I think that, in the main, I agree with Timmy and Deeej. Though we speak the same (well, nearly the same!) language, there are deep sociological distinctions betweeen the UK and the US. For purely geographic reasons, the US has to a considerable extent been insulated from internal atrocities, which made the attack upon the World Trade Centre particularly emotional. It led to the concept of '9/11' - as if a tag-line could render the atrocity less atrocious - and subsequently to the descriptor 'ground zero'. Both concepts, whilst possibly comforting to the US psyche, actually play into the hands of the terrorists. Timmy is right in suggesting that the best reaction is simply to get on with life.

It seems to me that the essential requirement is to convince the potential Muslim terrorist that suicide with the objective of killing unbelievers will not bring rewards in heaven. Those who have visited this site for a considerable period will know that I have often defended the Muslim point of view, but if Muslims wish to avoid what will amount to a civil war, they must place their cards upon the table.

So long as emotional and manipulated Muslim youth believes that suicide bombing will ensure everlasting and sexually fulfilling life, the atrocities will continue. The question for moderate Muslims is whether to support or deny that viewpoint. Indecision is not an option. I foresee a surge of hatred in which all Muslims will suffer, unless the religious leadership actually decides to lead.

Finally, I should make it clear that I find Christian Fundamentalism equally abhorrent - and just as stupid - as Muslim Fundamentalism. The future of mankind lies in building bridges, not in destroying therm.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
I agree and disagree  [message #35413 is a reply to message #35412] Mon, 11 September 2006 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

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Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



In general terms I agree with most of what Timmy and Cossie have written, but I think there should be one great exception.

I live in a country that lives under constant threat of terror attacks - probably more than any other western country. If we had a memorial day for each terror attack that we had suffered there would probably not be a day in the year which was not a memorial day - and obviously, we do not do that! When there is a painful terror attack we mourn - and then get on with our lives. (I myself once missed being involved in a terror bombing in my home town by about 30 seconds.) We simply cannot wallow in self pity by recalling and reliving each terror incident, even annually.

But there is a place in our national consciousness for remembering the victims of terror: not only the price they paid but also the price that their surviving relatives and friends continue to pay.

Every year, the day before Independence Day is celebrated as Memorial Day, the day upon which we remember the soldiers who gave their lives that we might gain and maintain our independence. To begin with, the memorializing of the victims of terror was made an adjunct of this ceremony; but the families objected: their pain was a different pain. So every year there is - on the same day - a collective memorial ceremony for the soldiers and a separate collective memorial ceremony for the victims of terror. Thus the victims are memorialized, but the attacks themselves are not.

JFR



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: Difficult Problem.  [message #35414 is a reply to message #35412] Mon, 11 September 2006 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

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Hey cossie, I would further add to what you are saying that it should be of concern to all of us that Muslim leaders are NOT condemning those attacks and the acts of suicide bombers! I will agree to live and let live if they will also do so, but they seem to remarkably silent on that point.

I do not forgive extremes of either religion for involving innocent people in their attempt to force everyone else to believe as they do. It is simply just wrong to be that way!! The God I believe in does not say that to me at all; and if I cannot call myself a part of any Christian religion, then I guess I am not part of one. I would never be a part of a group who will denounce the beliefs of others. That goes for the people who come to my door with an attempt to convince me that only their religion will be part of the 10,000 who will be saved by God.

If we could all just believe what we wanted without demeaning any other view or worse, to be killing those who disagree, maybe there could be some hope for mankind.

I know that people in other countries have suffered far more from terrorist acts than our country, whether you view it as a percentage of population or the number of attacks. It is abhorent to most of us here just as are those beheadings. I think that when we end up with the bodies of those would die in the name of Islam that we cremate them and scatter their ashes if we can identify them at all. Perhaps then according to their own beliefs, they will not gain the entry to heaven they had wished to achieve.



Ken
Re: In response  [message #35416 is a reply to message #35411] Mon, 11 September 2006 06:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800



If an insurance company loses money, all insurance premiums rise. So a major terrorist attck that is paid for by insurance hurts you and hurts me because we have to pay more becuase an imbecile decided to have a moment of glory.

In general no more attacks happen because no more attacks are genuinely coming.

In the UK the news was full, not of "A terrorist plot" but of an "alleged terrorist plot", to use something known as TATP to be created in a toilet and blow up several aircraft. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TATP, especially the link to The Register, which pours a lot of doubt upon the chemical (whcih needs to be dried to become a solid) as a viable explosive in this scenario.

The end result of terrorist attacks is that we no longer trust our own security services, but we also vote for a security clampdown on ourselves, removing our liberties "in the name of safety".

But what if safety were never compromised? What if it were all propaganda, perhaps from the side of the terrorist to create fear and mayhem where no actual plot existed, perhaps by cynical political manipulators?

We'll never prove anything either way. But my bet is that the latest crop of alleged plotters will be acquitted based on the impossibility of their alleged plot. The crime is actually conspiracy, nothing else. But what did they actually conspire to do? At least, and regrettably, those who succeeded had their "work" proven by a large bang and death and destruction.

Let's be aware, yes. But let us deprive the terrorist of the oxygen of remembrance and any more than transient publicity.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: I agree and disagree  [message #35417 is a reply to message #35413] Mon, 11 September 2006 06:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
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I think I was clear that the victims should be remembered. I simply do not wish to create, and wish to tear down, any memorials to the attackers. "9/11" is one such. "7/7" is another such. We shoudl not rememebr the deed, but shoudl remember those whome we, collectively, loved. Terrorism is not memorable, but those for whom we grieve are.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Difficult Problem.  [message #35454 is a reply to message #35412] Mon, 11 September 2006 15:12 Go to previous message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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I hope we all agree with what cossie said:

Finally, I should make it clear that I find Christian Fundamentalism equally abhorrent - and just as stupid - as Muslim Fundamentalism. The future of mankind lies in building bridges, not in destroying them.

************************************************************************

As an aside: 9-11 stuck so quickly as a tag line because 9-1-1 has been our national phone number to report emergencies for many years. So it was already a part of our national psych.

Gary

Navyone
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