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I'm guessing that most guys do. But the whole idea makes me feel rather uncomfortable. Subconsciously it is one of the reasons why I have always felt "different".
How do other people feel?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you need to qualify "desired".
If you mean lusted after and stalked and worse, then I absolutely do not.
If you mean that someone finds me attractive and cinsiders the idea of sharing our bodies to be a pleasant proposition, and wants to please me and be pleased in return, and for soemthing emotional to transfer along with body fluids, then I like that idea.
But each is being desired. And each is different.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Frankly, the idea scares me witless!
In my case, it's a major hang-up resulting from a disasterous first relationship in my early teens - a relationship in which I feel I was exploited for my body, not loved for myself. Ever since, I've been very wary of guys who seem attracted to me (or, indeed, who I am attracted to!) until I've known them for several months, and feel confident that there is a basic friendship and respect. Unfortunately, by that time the patterns of the relationship are often established, and taking the emotional attraction to the physical realm is often difficult or impossible ....
People that I've met (at weekend gay workshops, Pride, and suchlike) who make their physical interest in me too obvious at an early stage put a real block in the way of developing anything worthwhile ... (while it doesn't happen all that often because I'm not exactly a hunk, it does happen from time to time!). And perhaps that is one of my difficulties with the gay scene, in that many guys on the scene - at least in London - seem to work on a "fuck first, friendship might follow later" basis which is alien to me.
However, if I *do* meet someone compatible again, and we get to be friends, and it does eventually develop into love, I'm likely to sexually desire them and wish to be sexually desired by them. It hasn't happened for a while for me: my last LTR was wonderful, but while his feelings for me were deep he had only a little sexual desire for me, and chose not to act on that desire ... I certainly wish he'd desired me a bit more!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I do and I don't all at the same time.if that makes any scense.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Back in the days when us dinosaurs were virile young studs (don't laugh - there WAS such a time, a couple of years before the wheel was invented!) the gay scene was very different from what's out there today.
The same elements were there - guys who were always unsure about themselves, guys who were aggressively effeminate (the word 'queen' hadn't come into general use), guys who were romantic and wanted to settle down, and guys who were after sex, sex and (just for variety!) sex. What was different was the level of expectation.
There was no internet, very little gay literature and a limited supply of gay pornography. There was certainly a gay scene - and I was an enthusiastic part of it - but it was often well hidden. Lots of gay guys spent years looking for someone else who was gay, let alone someone to share their life with.
Even though Britain was relatively tolerant, at least as regards attacks on gays, there was a very strong social presumption among gay youth that one day we would meet a girl, marry, settle down and have a family, and most of us duly did just that.
In this environment, long-term commitment was very much the exception rather than the rule; in fact, a lot of guys who looked for more than raw sex were still terrified of the idea of a long-term partnership. And, in consequence, few of us ever thought 'does he find me sexually desirable?' - it was more a case of 'will he do it with me?' Long-term relationships, when they happened, arose from deepening friendship rather than strong sexual attraction. OK, there were lots of sexually desirable guys, but it was generally assumed that they were straight and surrounded by female admirers, so sexual desirability wasn't seen as a major requirement.
These days, young gays have access to vastly more information, and as a result have raised expectations. I guess that the angst which used to be more characteristic of those feeling their first attraction towards the opposite sex has jumped the orientation divide, so that gay guys worry more about the level of their sexual desirability to others.
Looking back over my own experiences, I did have several partners who told me I was - shall we say - sexually provocative, but the partners who lasted longer and whom I liked better were those with whom I became real friends. I think that's probably an eternal truth. Feeling that I was sexually desirable wasn't important to me, and - I'd suggest - it shouldn't be regarded as a priority by anyone else. Lust rarely turns into love, but it's love that brings you happiness.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie wrote:
> In this environment, long-term commitment was very much the exception rather than the rule; in fact, a lot of guys who looked for more than raw sex were still terrified of the idea of a long-term partnership. And, in consequence, few of us ever thought 'does he find me sexually desirable?' - it was more a case of 'will he do it with me?' Long-term relationships, when they happened, arose from deepening friendship rather than strong sexual attraction.
I think perhaps you underestimate the number of longterm companionships among previous generations ... certainly, my grandmother had a couple of dozen cousins (I guess, born between about 1890 and 1920), which include one guy who had a male companion until he was killed in WWII, and one woman who lived with a female companion for over fifty years. I don't know whether these relationships were physically sexual or not, but I'm pretty sure that they were in some sense what we'd now call "gay".
But I 100% agree with the point about relationships arising from deepening friendship ... I just suspect that more people were actively looking for - and finding - this kind of stability than history records.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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At my stage of life I do not wish to be sexually desired by somebody, but that wouldn't have been true earlier on. I still remember almost daily one hunk who found me sexually attractive, and I ballsed it up.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nick said,
>Do you wish to be sexually desired by somebody else?
Yes, but only by one person at a time: a person I also find attractive; and provided that both attractions are intellectual as well as physical.
I find it rather spooky how I receive messages via dating sites, etc. from older people who seem to find me attractive purely on the basis that I am young, without knowing me in any way. I do not think that is a good foundation for a relationship, and finding a loving long-term relationship remains much more important to me than sex.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It does reinforce one thing though. You can't be ugly 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Admirably stated by a virgin........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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No contradiction or peculiarity I can see there. There are many people who make a conscious choice not to have sex until they can do so on their own terms. What difference does it make if the question is answered by a virgin or someone who is experienced sexually? The answers may be different but it does not make them any less valid.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Well, we were all virgins once. And we each had ideas about what sex would be like. I suspect we were each wrong.
Some of us expected too much, others found it mindblowing.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Deeej wrote:
> No contradiction or peculiarity I can see there. There are many people who make a conscious choice not to have sex until they can do so on their own terms. What difference does it make if the question is answered by a virgin or someone who is experienced sexually? The answers may be different but it does not make them any less valid.
>
> David
True enough..... If validity is all a person wants then that is easy enough to achieve..... But it seems to be the ones insisting on everything being on "their own terms" that remain virgins for a very very very long time...
Only those that are willing to meet their sex partner midstreem as a meeting of the minds can anyone experience sex for all it has to offer....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I somehow suspect virginity and the shedding thereof is not all it;s cracked up to be. to me virginity is a state of mind. It has no physical manifestation, and is an "inner cleanliness" at the start of what we hope is the right relationship.
The first sex act with another person is not always deeply satisfying. Mainly it's a bit of a fumble working out which bits go where. We use too much intelligence and too little instinct.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc wrote:
>
> Only those that are willing to meet their sex partner midstreem as a meeting of the minds can anyone experience sex for all it has to offer....
That's very true, Marc. And I can attest to that from my own experience, of a relationship that was the best 18 months of my life.
But some people work by having a meeting of minds first, then grow towards an exploration of bodies ... that, as you say, can lead to long periods of virginity (or indeed lack of sex, as in my case at present). Others work by having a meeting of bodies, then grow towards a meeting of minds. Some do both simultaneously. I think it's a matter largely of personal style - but I certainly agree that arriving at a place where there's a willingness to be openminded about the other persons needs and desires, rather than "everything being on "their own terms" is essential.
And, probably, all of us have certain things that are non-negotiable. Things that we just won't do. As usual, balance is probably the thing - not insisting on everything on one's own terms, but finding a partner who is compatible with non-negotiable boundaries.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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What you say is perfectly true: all of life is a compromise. Though I do not think that wishing to stay out of a relationship until it is appropriate counts as not meeting a partner in the middle; on an individual level, it would be selfish to do anything but. It is not selfish if the only person "losing out" is oneself.
But that is beside the point of the thread. I replied only because I was unsure why it is relevant in a discussion on desirability that I am a virgin. Cannot a person be desired without having had sex? Does having sex turn someone into a totally different person with entirely different views? I do not believe so. Even if so, why should those views necessarily be taken as more important than the views he held before?
Marc, I do not think that the differences in opinion that you and I hold on this subject are anything to do with our sexual experience. It is more about who we just "are". We also disagree on many subjects that are entirely unrelated to sex or sexuality.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Probably, possibly, more than likely so......... But the giving and taking of it has to be on mutual terms
It can never be only on one persons terms.....
At least not if it is going to have an iota of meaning to it.
This does of course not include incidences of forced sex where there is definately no meeting of the minds.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>Probably, possibly, more than likely so......... But the giving and taking of it has to be on mutual terms
>It can never be only on one persons terms.....
You are evidently assuming an entirely different meaning for "on their own terms" than I am. Where I use it, I mean not committing to the possibility of a relationship unless one is sure that this is how one wishes to proceed. This harms no-one. On the other hand, an inexperienced person becoming involved with another person inevitably requires a level of trust between each individual. If this is uncertain and uncommitted, I would say that that was much more damaging than staying out of the relationship altogether.
I have not mentioned anything about the stage beyond the decision to become involved with another person. At that point the "meeting of the minds" and selflessness are the order of the day. I would not pretend to know anything about that beyond my own personal morality, which is why I have not brought it up before. I am anxious not to be taken out of context.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have never equated rape of any sort with the loss of virginity. forced se is rather like being beaten. it says nothing about one at all.
I lost mine as a wilful act to prove I was not gay to my friends. it was a technical loss, but by no means an emotional one. so i take and agree with your point about meaning
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> I somehow suspect virginity and the shedding thereof is not all it;s cracked up to be. to me virginity is a state of mind. It has no physical manifestation,
Ummm ... yes and no. The first time I asked a guy to fuck me was over ten years (and a fair few partners) after my first orgasm with another guy. For me, that really counted as losing my virginity ... it was something that I attached a great deal of importance to, and it certainly was all it was cracked up to be (despite a woeful ignorance on both parts that meant I needed two stitches the following day).
But each serious relationship that I've had, has had a physical manifestation that characterises it. With one guy, it was walking around with my hand stuck in the back pocket of his levis. With another guy, it was the particular position we snuggled together to watch movies. I would feel VERY uncomfortable doing any of these unique things with anyone else in any context ever again ... it would really feel like some kind of infidelity or betrayal, even of relationships from nearly 30 years ago. So I can see that, for those who feel they have a realistic expectation of a single lifelong relationship, virginity (and the shedding of it) could assume such a totemistic importance.
Sure, it's a romantic symbol. But there's nothing wrong with being a flaming romantic!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I have to say that until I lost my virginity, I really did think that I wanted to save my virginity, after losing it I wasn't at all disappointed that I had!
Before I had sex, I used to think sex was special, after having sex, I feel that it can be special, if it's made special, but sex itself has no innate value. Just like eating dinner, it's not special unless you make it special and it's with someone special. No point not eating dinner just because you can't do it with your "ideal" partner 
That said, I don't sleep around at all, and I wouldn't much if I was single. I don't enjoy sex with strangers enough for it to be worth the effort it takes to get one into bed! But I don't feel sex or virginity is anything special, though I used to before I did it.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Despite how my views on sex have changed since losing my virginity, I think I have to agree that I don't want to be desired any more than I did before. Even when I was "on my high horse" regarding virginity (I was, may not apply to others) I wanted to be found attractive by people. I wanted to be getting offers of casual sex, even if I just turned them down! Even before I started having sex, I wanted to be wanted for sex. That hasn't really changed. A lot of my other perspectives have, but that hasn't really.
That said, you may or may not find yourself more willing to be lusted after upon having sexual experiences, Deeej, simply because it may put sex and lust into a different perspective! I feel that in some cases denial of wanting to be lusted after is simply a reaction to protect ones own feelings from rejection. If I say I don't want to be lusted after then I can't get upset when no-one does lust after me!
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I didn't mean to imply that lifetime gay relationships were exceptionally rare, just that they were the exception, rather than the rule.
I grew up in a village of around 120 households, and that included one gay couple. I'd guess that that wasn't an unusual proportion for the time, allowing that there would be other gay couples who didn't feel safe setting up home together. Two things struck me about this couple. First, they were tolerated without any apparent malice, though there were no doubt some comments of the 'nudge-nudge, wink-wink' variety. Second, the 'local' member in the couple - his mother lived in the village - had the unfortunate name 'Ivor Allcock'. The surname's bad enough (unless, of course, his ancestors were proud of their dimensions!) and it could so easily have been changed to 'Allock', or even 'Ullock' (a place-name in Cumberland). But if it were to be preserved, how could any father name his son 'Ivor'? No wonder he turned out to be gay!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Timmy makes a good point, i.e. that it depends on who is doing the desiring. At one extreme nobody wants to be desired by an unwelcome stalker. On the other hand, the thought of an existing good and trusted friend revealing a hitherto concealed desire is potentially quite a flattering one (although I am not quite sure how I would deal with it in practice!).
However, I was thinking more from the perspective of wishing to be desired by persons as yet unknown. Some guys will announce quite unashamedly on a Friday night that they are going out "on the pull". I cannot identify with that mindset.
My friends encourage me to go out on dates. They suggest that my life would be so much more fulfilled if I had a romantic interest. But I find that the dating process sits uneasily with not wanting to be sexually desired.
Which brings me to my follow-up question: Is there any point going out on dates if you don't wish to be sexually desired?
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Disclaimer: Before Marc points it out, I've never been on a date.
Nick said,
>Which brings me to my follow-up question: Is there any point going out on dates if you don't wish to be sexually desired?
You can go out for an evening with a person having made it quite clear that you're not interested in going beyond friendship. If the other person is sensitive they will appreciate that they will have to be discreet if they happen to find you attractive. It is, though, probably not a good idea to call it a "date".
I do think there is not a lot of point in going out on dates on a regular basis -- especially with people you don't know all that well -- if under no circumstances would you wish to follow it up into a relationship. It's potentially a bit unfair to string the other person out. This does not apply if you can find someone who feels exactly the same way as you do and fully understands your thoughts on the matter -- in that case, you can enjoy the dates just for the dates and not worry about following them up.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Incidentally, I didn't realise that your original post was personal; sorry I rambled on in unhelpfully general and historic terms!
Though you don't expressly say it outright, the clear implication of your post is that you 'don't want to be sexually desired'. Those six words aren't exactly explicit! Do you mean that you have no interest whatsoever in any kind of sexual relationship, now or in the future? Or do you mean that you don't want to enter into a relationship in which a sexual element is anticipated from the outset, but if it arose from deepening friendship and affection a sexual element would be acceptable? Or do you mean something entirely different?
If it's the first alternative, then I agree with Deeej's comments. I'd particularly endorse what he says about being fair to the other person. The ordinary expectation when agreeing to a date is that it's a tentative step towards what might become a closer relationship including a sexual element. If you are wholly excluding the possibility of such an element, the other guy needs to aware of that from the outset. You'd be the one with special conditions, and it would be wrong to allow even a small chance that the other guy could be hurt because he wasn't aware of those conditions.
If it's the second alternative, the situation is very different. You don't have to sign up to casual sex; it's absolutley OK to let a relationship move forward slowly, and to allow friendship and affection to grow before anything further is considered. If you say you wan't to take things slowly and the other guy won't accept that, don't be pushed - just wait for someone less selfish to come along. My only suggestion is that you should be prepared to accept minor signs of affection without pulling away. A touch of hands or an arm over your shoulder doesn't necessarily mean that an attempted seduction is imminent!
If it's the third alternative, you need to tell us what it is!
Overall, though, your friends are just doing what friends have always done - they're trying to pair you off because that's what THEY would want if they were in your shoes. Don't be pressured if that's not what YOU want.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Nick wrote:
> Which brings me to my follow-up question: Is there any point going out on dates if you don't wish to be sexually desired?
This depends on the purpose of the date and your definition of "a date". Maybe we should define it? What is a date?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have always struggled with understanding the definition.
I suppose that, by convention, it is a meeting between two people, both of whom are unattached but open to the possibility of not remaining unattached.
I once asked a friend what the difference was between "two friends going out to dinner together" and "a date". My friend replied "well I suppose it depends on what you want to do afterwards".
That definition scared the hell out of me.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A date is a point in time exhibited by the calendar....
For our intended usage we however refer to "the date" as a social gathering consisting of two or more individuals meeting for a like purpose.
The purpose of a date is to provide stimulation both intelectual and psychological in that they are the nexus of both human endeavor and social interaction.
The "date" in-and-of-itself does not necessarily have to contain within it's framework any preconcieved notions and/or expectations of furthur intimacy. However, there may be an implied anticipation for furthur contact on a social level.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Hi Cossie,
Thanks for your reply.
The words I used at the top of the thread were that "the whole idea [of being sexually desired] makes me feel rather uncomfortable". However, your words are slightly different:
The clear implication of your post is that you 'don't want to be sexually desired'.
Yes, I was being a bit vague there, but I was interested in seeing other people's take on this before saying too much about my own personal perspective.
My position is probably that I do ultimately want to be sexually desired, but only by the right person and only if it arose from a deepening friendship (your second alternative). However, it is also the case that the idea makes me feel uncomfortable.
My problem is that I have always rather tended to disown my sexuality (which is probably why I have difficulty defining it). I find the idea of having to display it in some way for another person is a frightening prospect. I am convinced that I would ultimately disappoint them and that that they would then reject me. So better not to let anyone too close in the first place.
As time goes on, though, I am feeling increasingly isolated in a world that sems to be dominated by people living as couples. Something is missing in my life but I feel trapped where I am.
Nick
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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When I said -
'The clear implication of your post is that you 'don't want to be sexually desired'
- I was referring solely to your 'Follow-up Question' post. From that post, the implication seemed fairly strong!
Given the 'More Precise Information', you are, as you say, well within the parameters of my second alternative.
You clearly have some hang-ups about your sexuality. In that, you are far from unusual - but hang-ups are very personal things and I'd hesitate to attempt any broad generalisations. I can certainly recount from my own experience two guys who had not dissimilar hang-ups. In both cases, when they found an affectionate and loving partner (in one case me, in the other a close friend) the effect was like a bursting dam; they both turned into romantic, sensual and very happy guys. Of course, I can't guarantee that you would fit that pattern, but it's by no means impossible. In terms of advice, all I can really do is repeat what I said in my previous post: look for 'dates'; let things take their course, but never be afraid to protest that you want to take things more slowly. I think your hang-ups are part of the mental baggage society tries to impose upon us all - but I suspect that you've already worked that out for yourself. You can't change what you are overnight - but please do believe me when I say that your current feelings are simply instinctive inhibitors, and they will disappear when you find what you are looking for.
Don't undervalue yourself. Out there, someone else is just as confused as you are, and is looking for someone just like you. At the very least, give him a chance of finding you!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... except that, in the UK if not in the US, a 'date' has two possible meanings. One of them fits your model exactly - 'That's a date' among a group of friends, implying that they will meet again at a specified time and place. The other meaning, when two people meet with the intention that no-one else should be present, certainly carries a sexual connotation. It doesn't imply that sex is likely to follow that meeting, but it DOES imply that the meeting is to explore the potential relationship with sex as a likely ultimate consequence if all goes well.
That's the basis of my view that a one-on-one date requires a degree of up-front honesty to avoid potential hurt.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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