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http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgn4jjh_3ffmh9d
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A few questions........
Is this your own work?
What is your level of education? what grade or year of high school/college are you in?
Answer these and then I can evaluate your paper.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> A few questions........
>
> Is this your own work?
Yes
> What is your level of education? what grade or year of high school/college are you in?
English comp one step below first year english.
> Answer these and then I can evaluate your paper.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A couple more questions...
college level?
Your age?
Is english your primary language?
[Updated on: Thu, 19 October 2006 23:01]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Jay, what are you being assessed on? Quality of argument, or quality of English? Is it supposed to sound casual (the sort of thing you would say out loud) or academic?
If you need someone to proofread for grammar and punctuation I could give you a hand (as long as that's not against the rules).
Best wishes,
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I like the thoughts you have put into it, they tell me a lot about you and the way you think. Before I say anything else about it I'd like to know how the task was given to you.
What were you being asked to do? And what type of English class is this?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I agree with the others that it's difficult to make a judgement without more background information, but I absolutely agree with Timmy that you are clearly writing what you feel.
Just one comment I can't resist, being a Brit; if it was revolution that gave US citizens the freedom have today, how come Canadians get to be free without having a revolution?!!!!
Seriously, though, I agree that society needs rebels - if no-one challenges those in power at any and every level, individual freedoms will quickly be eroded and, eventually, lost.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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I don't think it would be a good idea for it to be gramatically corrected by someone with a high level of ability with English because it will be very obvious that it is not Jay's work. Maybe correct any words that are not the right words even though spelled corrctly, eg talking instead of taking near the end.
Aussie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I'd be grateful if future posters would avoid expressing views that I might agree with. This is making me feel very uneasy!
Despite spending my career writing in academic English, I usually prefer to write in dynamic English - the style which reflects conversational usage. Most of you will know that English usage and history has been a lifetime interest of mine. As the traditional emphasis on spelling and grammar is no longer an educational priority on either side of the Atlantic, it has become more and more apparent that dynamic writing ability is not dependent upon skill in either spelling or grammar. OK, before choosing writing as a career, the traditional skills must be acquired - but what counts in school these days is the ability to express ideas.
I don't agree with the change of emphasis, but that's the way it is - and on that basis the most important thing is to check that 'wrong' words haven't crept in (as in Aussie's example), and to make sure that commas and stops are more or less in the right places. Given those checks, the writer's intentions should be intelligible, and that's what really matters.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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As I understand it, it's okay to correct grammar and spelling mistakes in other people's essays at most universities: it doesn't count as plagiarism. Plagiarism means plagiarism of ideas.
That said, if the purpose of the work is to assess Jason's English then I suppose it might be a bit inappropriate.
On the whole absolute technical perfection is not that important (even though, personally, I find it pleasing to the eye) provided that the ideas are clear. If the work's being published, an editor'll deal with the minor details. For most other things it doesn't matter if the punctuation's a bit funny.
David
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 01:51] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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..... now I have to agree with you, too!
I'm gonna sulk!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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So we better chalk this one up.
IT may never happen again.
Aussie
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 04:01] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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If I were Christian, I'd say 'Thank the Lord for that!' One Aussie is bad enough, but two or more? I simply couldn't cope!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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ProfZodiac
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Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 115
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Just a reminder Jay, I'm a journo who edits.
In case you think, you know, an editor might be helpful...
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Sorry to stress you. Just a typo, heading should read IT may never happen again.
Aussie
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Hey I've been tricked. I didn't write that. You did.
Aussie
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I just want to know what you all thought
not to grade the darn thing.
Marc wrote:
> A couple more questions...
>
> college level?
Yes
> Your age?
19
> Is english your primary language?
yes
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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No just what u think of it waas it good or bad.
Just your thoughts
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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timmy wrote:
> I like the thoughts you have put into it, they tell me a lot about you and the way you think. Before I say anything else about it I'd like to know how the task was given to you.
>Tell you all tomorrow at this time. but that what u said is what i want to know.
> What were you being asked to do? And what type of English class is this?
First part, i ans in 24 hours.
Second part, It a writeing class one step below english 1301.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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Thank U
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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Not what I want to know but thanks for playing.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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Sorry, But thanks for playing
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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But if i want it edited I would have asked last night
Nice try but thanks for playing
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 04:37]
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What I meant was "What were you asked to write about?" And, if any guidance was given such as "In what style?"
The reason is that it reminds me a little of Catcher in the Rye, by J D Salinger. A stream of concsiouness piece of prose. Where it differs is that he uses punctuation more thoroughly. This means that his work is easier to understand than yours. But then he is/was a professional author, so we would expect that!
Now, if you were asked to write a "stream of conciousness" piece I will have very different comments from a more formal piece.
I have no idea what "English 301" is, I'm sorry. If you can help me with that then I can also see how to look at the piece.
I could edit it, of course I could. I can, too. But I have to know what style before I even try. BUT, the edited work would not be your work, and you are in class to learn something about writing, so I would only edit it to show that it can look different.
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 06:32]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Don't need it to be edited just your thoughts was it good bad Interesting or not. That’s all.
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Without reading that article, punctuation is important.
The reason is simple. Punctuation forms the pattern in he written word whcih is made by the bvoice in the spoken word. It is the large gaos and the short pauses. It is the rising inflection for a question - hard if you are Australian or South African when it seems to be used at the end of every sentence, eh.
Without punctuation we can't understand the writer's intention, even on short and seemingly unambigous sentences.
"What's that on the road ahead?"
"What's that on the road? A head?"
Al that matters with punctuation is that it turns strings of words into meanings:
A Midsummer-Night's Dream
by Will Shakespeare,
Act V, Scene I
Enter Quince for the Prologue.
If we offend, it is with our good will.
That you should think, we come not to offend,
But with good will. To show our simple skill,
That is the true beginning of our end.
Consider then we come but in despite.
We do not come as minding to content you,
Our true intent is. All for your delight,
We are not here. That you should here repent you,
The actors are at hand; and, by their show,
You shall know all that you are like to know.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The overall answer is that it painted pictures for me. I like that, because that is what words are meant to do in compositions.
I would have found the pictures easier to make if I'd been able to read it faster, which means at the speed you thought it, not the speed you wrote it. What I mean is I had to re-read sections in order to work out what you meant. This is because your punctuation is not yet in patterns to match the way you breathe when you speak. That's just a matter of thinking "How would I SPEAK this?" and then working as follows:
New idea: A new paragraph every time
Totally New thought: A new sentence
Short set of thoughts: Separate them with commas
Don't worry about the semicolon because very few people know how to use them
Do worry about the apostrophe, because the wrong use can change a meaning totally.
In creative writing the punctuation is allowed to change because it can be made to create a rhythm in a piece. You'll know this as a viola player. In music the rests are played with periods of silence. And playing the rest properly is a hard skill to learn at first because it is hard to understand that the silence has a crisp start and a crisp end. Rests are, pretty much, musical punctuation - they create an effect in the listener's head. Other musical punctuations are things like rallentando, or changing the time signature. In fact the time signature itself is punctuation because it decides the rhythm and the emphasis on certain notes because of their position in the bar.
But, just as in music, the basic rules are required. And those are, really, pauses when the breathing would happen.
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 06:59]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I wrote the paper in 1 hour and 20 min
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Exactly. It's obvious you worked hard on it.
What I mean is that your thinking will always run faster than your writing. Each of the sentences you wrote were formed in your head in a flash. They took a longer time to write down because you were working on making them precisely what you wanted to say.
When we polish sentences there is the danger that we stand too close to them to be able to see whether we've punctuated them correctly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All right.......
I thought it was poorly done.
The subject was hard to follow because of the bad use of language.
All in all....... it was awful.
It will be a miracle if you pass this course.
[Updated on: Fri, 20 October 2006 09:08]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Since when is emphasis on spelling and grammar no longer an educational priority here???
Tell that to Kevy (who is an english education major).
Preactcle use once out of college is one thing but the educational standards are hard line to follow the rules.
However there are courses for creative writing and the like that emphasize writing in a more casual style.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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When learning to write at first in the UK there is an emphasis on "just writing", as well as the child can, even if it is scribble. The idea is to get them to think, unhampered by the mechanics of writing.
At this stage there is little grammar and only phonetic spelling.
As the year progresses the teacher introduces more and more rigorous grammar,m spelling and punctuation. However this presupposes that the teacher can do it him or herself.
The thing that ofended my son during his law degree is that examinations do not penalise poor grammer and spelling at that level. This is a change since the 1960s when it was an essential part of all public examinations here to be able to spell and write coherent and intelligible sentences
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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At present Marc is right: passing this course will be a challenge unless your teacher works well with you, and unless you take on board what is said in order to help you and work hard on it.
One way of starting is to make sure separate ideas are in separate paragraphs, and that each of the paragraphs link to the next paragraph. That gives the piece a better flow.
I know you have some challenges with written English - I think you said so very early on here - that is why Marc and I each want to know if you were raised speaking English, or if your family mainly speaks another language at home. English as a second language can be hard. Speaking it is fine, but writing it down is more difficult.
I would work hard on short sentences and simple and good punctuation. Doing that will almost certainly help Marc change his opinion.
None of this stopped it from painting pictures for me, it just made it harder to read.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Tim is right here.......
English is much easier to speak than it is to write down.....
I am sure there is a learning center or something like it at your college.
They can provide you with one on one help to improve your writing skills and you will be giving another student a chance to earn some of his/her work-study dollars as well.....
College is alot of work. The recomended time for studying is 3 hours for every hour in class. College professors do not normally have time to give one on one assistance so finding another student by going to the learning center or even to your student advisor can be a great help in finding a tutor.
There is also nothing wrong with asking for help here. College is there to give you the direction to go in your learning..... It is up to you to see that that learning happens.....
I hope you do well in your studies and in life as well....
But I am forced to offer this bit of advice....
Don't ask a retired college professor his opinion of your work unless you are willing to accept that opinion with an open mind.
That being said.... If you want a bit of help I am available.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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In that case those who wrote and signed it are completely mad for not clarifying the concept in a further sentence or two. As it is, the sentence can be read either way and it's almost impossible to say which is the right one.
Punctuation is very important in technical and legal English, especially where it is concise. But in this case it's not really the punctuation that's at fault: the fault is that of the idiots who signed without paying attention to what it meant.
David
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I felt the grammar and punctuation was very uneven and in some cases missing altogether: this disrupted the rhythm and made it difficult to read.
You used a lot of wrong words -- all hidden misspellings that wouldn't be picked up by a spell-checker.
The ideas are good and they tell us something about yourself. The structure is a bit muddled and unclear; the essay might have benefited from a plan.
David
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Thank U Marc thats what I want to know
Oh by the way I have a B so far in the class
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, grades are little more than the measure of your instructors ability to instruct.
If you are not improving then your instructor is failing and dragging you down with him/her.
I often wondered if a college instructor/teacher/professor could or ever would be sued for malpractice.....
After all they charge a boatload of money for what they offer and they should be held accountable for failure.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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not really
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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