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Recently in another thread we or I should say I have been trying to press a, at least personal point that we and I mean all of us need to make a concerted effort to find alternatives to dealing with problems that seem to be pervasive around the world today. I know that many my see what I have been saying somewhat alarmist, but past history has shown that when people sit back and say “this doesn’t affect me so why should I worry” attitude has resulted in devastating consequences. I am not saying that the majority do not care. What I am doing is asking, at what point do we come together and stand for what we know is right.
A case in point, which I have seen very little discussion about, is GWB having just a couple weeks ago signed a bill which basically circumvents habeas corpus, not that, that hasn’t already been happening in this country. Our rights at least the rights of the many are slowly being eroded. I for one feel as if I were a lobster that has been put into a pot of cold water but the flame has been turned on, and slowly almost imperceptibly I’ll soon be boiled ready for the serving.
I ask you all, at what point do we come together in a concerted effort and say, Ummm wait a minute, time out, we need to discern just what and where this course is leading. Because what I see is getting a little beyond worrisome. History even relatively recent for those of us that have been around for a half century or more hehe cossie have shown what happens when we wait till what is happening effects us directly. Again I may sound alarmist but hey our fathers and grandfathers as the case may be ushered in a new age, the age of nukes. The stakes are now much higher than they were during WWII and before. I truly believe we stand on the edge of a precipice; we can either step of into oblivion or a world we have only dreamed of. This age, I think can be the true golden age of mankind or our darkest hour, but it up to us. Can we find the tolerance and common ground? I don’t know, but I do try to think beyond the bounds. I am a dreamer. I am a humanitarian I may not like everyone but I care equally for other’s as I care for myself. I do know change has to start some where no matter how daunting the task may seem, but the birth of all things start with a small seed.
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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The “this doesn’t affect me so why should I worry" will always be there.
People have the feeling that their little world is perfect so why should they care.
Jay
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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The United States has lost support throughout the world - and, significantly, the Western world - by the debacle of Guantanamo Bay. By its attempt to circumvent international law, it has earned nothing but derision. Dick Cheney's 'no brainer' remarks of the past week take the Republican administration back to the uncivilised days of the Salem witch trials. Do Bush's bully-boys really believe that what they are told by individuals they have almost drowned is the gospel truth?
If we have any pretension towards civilisation, it MUST include a civilised response to those whom we regard as our enemies. What represents the greatest threat to world peace? Instinctively, one might say Al Queida - but, on closer analysis, might it be the United States?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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You’ve again hit the nail on the head. The US in its history has done some really good things, but when I think of what we are becoming I want to cry literally. It all bring to mind what the ancient Greeks considered sin, as I remember it was to either living your life below your potential or pretentiously beyond, and as far as I can we are guilty on both counts, not that it’s for me to judge but I have the obligation to have my eyes open enough to try to be discerning. I’m not saying what I discern is right on, what disturbs me most though, is that most care only to maintaining a precarious status quo for a quality of life that if they were truly aware, is extravagant in the extreme compared to world standards. Yet this is mostly true for all of the first world and is one of the pieces of the puzzle that again I say is part of the inequities we face that will only lead to more instability as time goes.
I am constantly in wonder these days of the purveyors of terror large and small, yeah cossie, “sighs” again I have to say those that govern this country are guilty, and even with elections at hand I am not sure that even if we can minimize what is left of this administration tenure in office, that it will effect real change in the near term. The propagandists have been doing all too good a job as far as I can see and they are not going to go away. The really scary thing is that most of that is controlled the religious fascist.
So what do we do? Despite all the other problems we face. I think we can agree that one of the biggest hairiest flies in the ointment is religious extremism. I personally have no problem with the diversity in religion, there are things we can learn and maybe these are the deepest guide post to understanding one another. Obviously they can not be disregarded, quit the contrary, I have felt for a very long time that religion can be the key to man kinds survival. Could it be that most lack the tolerance to see the potential? Could it be that it is an amalgam of all that is good and edifying with in these philosophies? Surely MOST of us see that “My way and no other” just is not right. Tolerance + diversity = richness. Can we, if we can even agree on this, find a peaceful way to impress this on those that yet to realize it?
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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>I think we can agree that one of the biggest hairiest flies in the ointment is religious extremism.
Unless former White House staff member David Kuo is correct, that 'the Bush administration used evangelical Christians who supported the [faith-based initiative] program to gain votes without meeting their agendas', and that the White House has in fact been ridiculing evangelical leaders behind their backs.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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The Bush administration USES the religious fundamentalists, but the real bedfellows and string-pullers are the capitalist corporations - Halliburton, and others. I'd have included Enron - but we know what happened there!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Edmund Burke [1729-1797] said: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." This is what concerns me most when pacifism is taken to extremes. Everyone knows that if you let a bully get away with it once he will just come back and do it again. Of course, 'evil' in the political sphere does not require that the good men resort to violence and revolution: all they have to do is to get out and vote!
J F R
[Updated on: Mon, 30 October 2006 05:57]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think no-one ignored you. The issue is "What to do?"
We all stood and screamed at our governments when the Kosovo massacres were hapening. We did the same when Nazi Germany was massacing people, not just Jews.
We stand by and watch Sudan, Somalia, Rwanda, Ethiopia.
We stand by and watch Mugabe.
We beat the crap out of Sadam Hussein. Big deal. Ah - there was oil there.
We have carefully and selectively blanked out anything that is not to our taste.
And to criticise (Dixie Chicks) is seen in the USA ans "unAmerican"
Perhaps the American Reich needs to fail despite the chaos that might cause?
[Updated on: Mon, 30 October 2006 08:13]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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JFR wrote:
> Edmund Burke [1729-1797] said: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." This is what concerns me most when pacifism is taken to extremes.
LOL - Pacifism - even extreme pacifism - doesn't equate to doing nothing!
While I am in no sense a Quaker (Religious Society of Friends), I do have a lot of sympathy for their approach, and I think that they amply demonstrate that the pacifism many of them espouse has never been incompatible with a high level of action against injustice and evil - from their part in the abolition of the slave trade onwards.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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The coming elections will, reveal a much I think. I hold some hope but considering apparent voting irregularities over the past six years makes me wonder if the Reich Stad (SP?) has already been burned metaphorically speaking. I for one am willing to risk my “freedom” and speak out against those that rule this nation.
Guys I really don’t know if I am going overboard here or if my analysis of the situation has any validity. I just want people to be vocal so at least some balance may be found. I thank those in other countries that are speaking out not as anti Americans but as concerned friends of the people of this country.
Sailor, I am sorry if what I am about to say seems or is offensive to you, but I trust the leaders of the evangelicals even less than our government. They seem to me to have a desire to expedite there image of apocalyptic prophesy. Even close kin to suicide bombers, in that if they do things in certain way it will usher their way into paradise. They all believe they have the ear and are the mouth piece of deity. Sorry I don’t think that floats with billons of other inhabitants of our little dirt ball in space. Just to have fun with the “true believers” I know, I tell them I think GWB is the Anti Christ and Pat Robertson is the whore of Babalon.
Sorry again, I was tempted to delete the last paragraph, but it’s just how absurd it all seems to me.
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... it makes a lot of sense.
The proponents of 'Apocolypse Now/Next Week/Next Month/Next Year' are by any rational standard insane - but they exert far too much influence in the most powerful nation on earth. Neither I, nor anyone else, can guarantee that the Democrats will succeed in establishing the selfless policies the weak should be entitled to expect from the strong - but it's absolutely clear that the Republicans have no such agenda. If America wants to lead the world, it must give due priority to world interests - but, as things stand, the USA is the world's greatest polluter and it refuses to take action because that might damage the US economy. No wonder GWB is viewed with such derision - he's worked hard to earn it!
As regards NW's post above, I echo his admiration of the Quaker ability to convert idealistic thought into positive action. I'd support any action which would avert war, so long as it did not involve leaving a minority group facing the probability of annihilation. But once the bullets are flying, the parameters change. We do have a responsibility for the consequences of our actions, even if those consequences are unforeseen.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I am afraid I’ll not be posting much for a while, so just out of curiosity I wanted to ask this one last question. As you mentioned this country is considered be many to be the most powerful in the world, some have said due to this position and it’s inordinate influence in so many lives that the people of the world should be allowed to vote for whom will govern it, how do y’all feel about that concept hehe? 
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I think it is a fine idea.....
All they have to do is immigrate here, study the citizenship test after the required waiting interval is over, become a citizen, register to vote, make the effort to actually get to the polls and then make in informed decision as to who should be elected.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Hmmm ... well, the American Empire seems to me to be showing all the signs of an empire in decline, and I don't expect the USA to be "the most powerful in the world " by around the middle of the century. This does not cause me to weep.
So I don't really want a say in who governs America internally. But I will continue to press for US foreign policy to be conducted according to international law, and for America to sign up to the relevant treaties: that's a legitimate concern of everyone on the planet.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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>Sailor, I am sorry if what I am about to say seems or is offensive to you, but I trust the leaders of the evangelicals even less than our government.
Dear Arich, I'm not the slightest offended. I trust evangelical leaders no more than you do, and some of my earlier posts reflect that view. I have a deep distrust, disrespect and distaste for any combination of ultra conservative politics and religious fundamentalism, be it the American-ish evangelical flavour or the ageing European one based in the Vatican, wherever they may be.
I thought that the article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24561-2005Feb14.html illustrates why there is so little reason to trust any of the leaders, political or religious, on the far right of American society today.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As we do not have an emperor I can not see why you say we are an empire...
It really does not matter what country is the most powerful, does it?
Whoever it is will insist that their policy is best for those whos countries are less developed..... I hear a ringing of the Brittish Empire in the back of my mind... They once gave direction to a good part of the world, didn't they?
Ahhh well, such is the way of the world.... Easy come easy go...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Regardless of the status of the USA in world politics I have no desire to vote for American institutions. America is not my country, so I have no right to influence its leadership or its policies by direct ballot.
I disagree with NW that by mid-century America will no longer be "top nation" (with apologies to Sellars and Yeatman). This may be the case; but there is also a chance that with a change of administration and direction America could recover her tarnished glory. However, optimistic I am not.
(Arich, I am sorry to read that you won't be able to post for some time. I hope the reason is not untoward.)
J F R
[Updated on: Tue, 31 October 2006 13:20]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I think it's much too extreme to give citizens of other countries a say in American politics: for one thing, it would give America an acknowledged status as something approaching "world government". This can hardly be a good thing. In my eyes each country has a right to set its laws according to the interests of its inhabitants.
The only thing that I, and I suspect most of the rest of the world, would wish for is that America does not push its own internal interests so hard on the world stage that they start to interfere with the internal politics of other countries.
David
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Marc said,
>As we do not have an emperor I can not see why you say we are an empire...
Notwithstanding Victoria's title "Empress of India", which was specific only to one country, the British Empire did not have an emperor, either. But it was still an empire.
[Updated on: Tue, 31 October 2006 13:30] |
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Marc wrote:
> As we do not have an emperor I can not see why you say we are an empire...
>
Mainly, for the reason Deeej gives.
But also, because the alternative seemed to be to use the utterly dreadful word "hegemony" ... a word that I detest: in my experience it usually signals a jargon-filled half-baked lefty-communist rant, probably because Chairman Mao's "Little Red Book" seemed to use it on every page. Along with "paper tiger" and "running dog".
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Marc wrote:
As we do not have an emperor I can not see why you say we are an empire...
In modern political jargon 'imperialism' refers to one nation imposing its mores, culture and political system on other nations and also, usually, exploiting their natural wealth for its own benefit.
I do not think that the USA ever set out to create an empire in that sense; but its policies since 1945 have resulted in something very similar. And no one can deny that American culture (i.e. Hollywood and TV) have penetrated to almost every corner of the globe.
It really does not matter what country is the most powerful, does it?
Marc, maybe I have misunderstood you, because your question sounds rather ingenuous. Of course it matters to the ruled who is ruling them. It is the ruler's policies that affect the ruled directly or indirectly (as you, yourself, say in your next sentence).
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I think I agree with Marc, actually, it doesn't matter who rules, they are going to be bastards regardless. I don't for a moment think that Australia or Britain would make a "better" world Superpower than the USA does. I think any kind of Superpower is going to be subject to corruption and abuse of power. I support local government and decentralised power almost as much as someone that agrees with socialism can.
Unlike some on the left, I don't think the UN is much more of a positive way forward than America the Almighty. In some ways I'm just inclined to feel that I should let those who care about power rule and just live my own life, quite an interesting position for a political science major, but I think in part my studies are what has lead me to start on the path to political apathy!
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Deeej wrote:
The only thing that I, and I suspect most of the rest of the world, would wish for is that America does not push its own internal interests so hard on the world stage that they start to interfere with the internal politics of other countries.
David, why do you limit yourself to "internal politics". Only yesterday your own Prime Minister pointed out most eloquently that American policies are causing a global ecological catastrophe that will cost the world trillions of dollars and make millions homeless. Is there any greater 'imperialism' than that? If any other country were to do that (Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Cuba, Russia etc) America would have declared war long ago and sent its troops in to "set things in order". The trouble is that every time the Americans do that the conflict ends with an American bloody nose - as in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq...
"When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?"
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Just wanted to say this was not my idea, just something I heard someone say in an interview on public radio : ) . I’m just glad I still have a copy of The Small Faces Album “Ogden’s Special Nut Gone Flake” So I can recall the journey of Happiness Stan.
Have fun guys and be good to one another. As mad John would say, don’t worry about the other half of the moon.
I’ll be back as time and energy permit.
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Hi JFR,
I agree with everything you say.
When I said "internal interests" I meant interests that reflect the ideas and desires of the American people only -- the desire for a good standard of living, cheap oil, big cars, unlimited energy, big business, etc. -- with little regard for the fact that having these often means that people in other countries lose out, either immediately or ultimately. In other words, "internal interests used to dictate international policy". I don't deny that that is imperialism.
I hope I make sense.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Whatever country at any time in history past, present or in the future is top ranked in the "quest for power and global dominance" the result will always be the same....
A several few will make policy because they control the media which is faithfully filtered down to the masses. These few will prosper because along with power comes greed and with greed comes wealth....
As these few gain in promenance they will loose ground due to the "bad" decisions they are forced to make "for the good of the ignorant masses"....
The ignorant masses however are not as ignorant as the few in power suppose and in time public opinion will begin to swell to a point where it can be no longer ignored....
Now....
In a situation where the few in power are chosen through elections the chacks and ballances of their past performance become paramount within the framework of the process that allows the "ignorant masses" to choose to stay the course or affect change....
Some countries still hold to more totalitarian forms of government where the ruling class in in power effectivly for life... These situations lend themselves to political strife as one militant faction vies for power over the policies of the reigning power in office.... These mititaristic solutions always cost more to the "ignorant masses" than any society can bear and in the end no one wins.
Would the world be a better place if world powers came together in one vast megasociety? Who knows, it has never been done before.... But it would be interesting to try, wouldn't it?
Oh, and on apathy.... That is the cancer that allows political powers ultimate control over it's people.... Only a voice loud and clear can be heard over the political din of "we know whats best for you"...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Don't be away too long, we're going to miss you!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I have commented several times before that Britain made all the mistakes so that others could learn from them - and Britain DID make a lot of mistakes in its days of Empire. The subtle difference is that the British Empire existed in the age of imperialism, not in the age of reason. Britain was the most successful imperial nation, but it was one of many; France, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Spain and Portugal had similar ambitions. Many (though not all) of the mistakes Britain made are only seen as mistakes in retrospect; they were seen as legitimate and appropriate actions at the relevant time.
That's not quite the same as the refusal of the United States to sign international treaties because the treaties would impose restrictions upon its freedom - restrictions which the rest of the developed world is prepared to accept in the interests of humanity as a whole.
The flagrant flouting of international law at Guantanamo Bay is one example. The refusal to sign up to strategies to combat global warming is another - and, currently, the United States is the biggest polluter in the world.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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