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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > The word 'gay'
The word 'gay'  [message #38625] Sat, 11 November 2006 11:38 Go to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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We think of the word 'gay' as relatively modern.
I have just been listening to 'Much Binding in the Marsh' when Sam Costa sang:

"I might act gay,
but I'm not really that way…"

Date of the original broadcast - November 1945.

Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38629 is a reply to message #38625] Sat, 11 November 2006 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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We think of the modern meaning as relatively modern. Are you sure he isn't using the old meaning?

David
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38632 is a reply to message #38625] Sat, 11 November 2006 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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The word per se is old. Gaeity is not new. Using "gay" to mean "homosexual" started (I think) in the early 1960s, but was not common until around 1967.

There are many thoughts over the root of the word.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38634 is a reply to message #38625] Sat, 11 November 2006 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I think there was a long period - from the late 1920s to the early 60s, say - when "gay" was used specifically in a homosexual subculture to mean "homosexual and aware of it". For much of this period, it was also used outside the subculture to mean "non-monogamous or sexually risque".

As - always - there are a lot of gay men in the entertainment industry, a great deal of fun was had by using "gay" in a public context, where the cognoscenti could also infer the subcultural one. I think wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay#Development_of_modern_sexualized_usage) seriously underestimates this tongue-in-cheek element - although it's possible that the older queens I remember from 20 or 30 years ago when I started working in theatre tended to exaggerate things in their recollections!

On a similar note, I saw Ian McKellen's Twankey (as it is generally known - ie I saw the actor Ian McKellen playing the part of Widow Twankey in "Aladdin") a couple of years ago, with my straight brother and young niece. The audience was very mixed - a lot of gay people, a lot of straight families with kids who had come because of McKellen's popularity playing Gandalf in the LOTR films. The script was outrageously camp, and a lot of the jokes clearly meant one thing to the straight section of the audience, and something completely different to the gay people!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38636 is a reply to message #38634] Sat, 11 November 2006 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Though Julian and Sandy never used the term, nor is it, I think, in Polari.

I would have expected Julian and Sandy to have used it outrageously.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38637 is a reply to message #38636] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I think that by the time of "Round the Horne" & Julian and Sandy (1964-69, I think), the word "gay" had been adopted by political activists to the point of no longer being subcultural. The Gay Liberation Front was formed only a few months after Kenneth Horne died - and I'm fairly sure that "gay" was pretty well out of being exclusively subcultural (but not as widely-understood as it is today) a while before then.

As for polari, I've little idea. I've always been an integrationist rather than a segregationist, and for most of my life I was fairly dismissive of polari as a form of self-ghettoisation. Over the last few years I may have become less dogmatic about this, but I confess that polari still has little appeal for me personally.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: The polari  [message #38638 is a reply to message #38636] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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I think the polari lost its point once it was outed by Julian and Sandy.

I was lucky enough to be at university in London during that period. In fact I saw Julian and Sandy live. It suited my sense of humour. However, it was only during this last year or so that I discovered the meaning of the word 'dish', so I probably missed a lot of the jokes.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38639 is a reply to message #38629] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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David, how would you interpret "But not in that way…"?

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38641 is a reply to message #38639] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Nigel said,
>David, how would you interpret "But not in that way…"?

That's not what you quoted. What you quoted was:

"I might act gay,
but I'm not really that way…"

I would tend to read that as, "I may seem happy and jovial, but I'm not as happy as I look". This makes perfect sense by the old meaning of the word "gay" -- a lot of people who seem jolly are actually a bit lonely or depressed.

I haven't seen the rest of the song, but unless it positively backs up the "modern" reading, I think my position would be "I don't know, but in the absence of other evidence, I would be inclined to doubt it's a deliberate innuendo".

David
Re: The polari  [message #38642 is a reply to message #38638] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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>I think the polari lost its point once it was outed by Julian and Sandy.

I'm sure you're right, Nigel.

Interestingly, I think I've noticed a bit of a tendency over the past couple of years for fairly "straight-acting" out gay men to drop an odd polari word or phrase into general conversation - I think it signals something about not being afraid of our history, and an acceptance of peoples right to be camp if that's what they are or want.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38643 is a reply to message #38639] Sat, 11 November 2006 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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He looked Gay and Acted Gay but he was really Sad.


Gary
Navyone
PS  [message #38645 is a reply to message #38634] Sat, 11 November 2006 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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I don't think the fact that "The Gaiety" used to be a very popular name for UK theatres is connected to the number of homosexuals in theatre: most of them were built 1870-1900 ish, well before "gay" acquired a subcultural meaning!

Like most theatres, many are now closed, but the Gaiety Ayr, Gaitey Isle of Man and Gaiety Dublin are all still very much with us.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38647 is a reply to message #38641] Sat, 11 November 2006 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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Sorry about the misquote, but life has to go on and things fitted in as best as possible.

>but I'm not really that way…"<

I thinks it's the demonstrative pronoun that gives it away. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, you know what I'm talking about.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38648 is a reply to message #38636] Sat, 11 November 2006 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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But they did. Their pub was always The Gay Hussar.

Hugs
N



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38649 is a reply to message #38648] Sat, 11 November 2006 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Thanks, Nigel - that fits pretty well, somehow, in terms of remaining innuendo rather than using gay as an unadorned adjective which might by then not have been so much of an in-joke.

I'm learning stuff here - thanks!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: PS  [message #38657 is a reply to message #38645] Sun, 12 November 2006 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Navyone is currently offline  Navyone

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gaiety
noun
1. A state of joyful exuberance: blitheness, blithesomeness, glee, gleefulness, hilarity, jocoseness, jocosity, jocularity, jocundity, jolliness, jollity, joviality, lightheartedness, merriment, merriness, mirth, mirthfulness. See laughter.


2. Joyful, exuberant activity: conviviality, festival, festiveness, festivity, fun, jollity, merriment, merrymaking, revel (often used in plural), revelry. See laughter.
3. Bright color or showiness, as of dress; finery.

gaiety
n
Definition: happiness, celebration
Antonyms: misery, sadness, solemnity, unhappiness
What a gay day!  [message #38658 is a reply to message #38625] Sun, 12 November 2006 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

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According to Chambers' Etymological Dictionary, the word 'gay' derives from Norman French 'gai' (merry, splendid, beautiful). It was first recorded in English as a surname, in 1178, but it did not appear as an adjective until 1300 or thereabouts.

The first recorded unambiguous mainstream use as a synonym for 'homosexual' was in 1951, but it in known to have been in use in American underworld slang from at least 1935 to describe a homosexual boy. This is probably derived from an earlier American slang usage, first recorded in 1897, where the phrase 'gay boy' was used to describe a young tramp or hobo, especially one travelling with an older companion.

The use of 'gay' as a noun is not recorded until 1971.

When a sub-culture develops an argot - a vocabulary of its own - in the nature of things that vocabulary is not recorded in the public domain. There is ample circumstantial evidence to suggest that 'gay' was in common usage in the theatrical sub-culture, though not necessarily in the wider homosexual sub-culture, long before it entered common usage. Despite the lack of direct evidence, it is fairly clear that the new meaning crossed the Atlantic at some time between 1935 and 1950; the war years of the early 1940s seem to me to have been the most likely time for this to happen. It was enthusiastically adopted by the English homosexual sub-culture, but it was not commonly used outside of that sub-culture until the late 1960s.

Although the usage clearly originated in the United States, it was consciously adopted and promulgated by the United Kingdom homosexual sub-culture as the adjective (and from around 1971 as the noun) of choice in describing themselves, especially in connection with political campaigning. This amended usage was re-exported to the United States and much of the rest of the English speaking word in the first half of the 1970s.

'Gaiety' has never been associated with homosexuality; where appropriate the term 'gayness' is used to describe the condition of being gay. Strangely, although it is now virtually impossible to use the word 'gay' in its original sense, the adverb 'gaily' is less infected by the new usage.

So, Nigel, in my view it's perfectly possible that Sam Costa's tongue was firmly in his cheek when he used the word in 1945, but the joke would be appreciated only among a small sub-culture. The same applies to Julian and Sandy's 'Gay Hussar' - the phrase 'gay hussar' is very much older, though 'gay' in that context meant 'carefree' - but in a sketch which delivered one double entendre after another it's impossible to believe that the choice of pub name was accidental!

Thanks for the chance to ramble on about my favourite subject!



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: What a gay day!  [message #38667 is a reply to message #38658] Sun, 12 November 2006 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

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It's important to remember that the Julian and Sandy scripts were very tightly written and no words were wasted.

At the time I had a very good mentor in things gay (btw the boy I should have married!) and we would listen together to the new edition of 'Round the Horne' at 1.30pm on a Sunday.

I know some time ago we had a 'Spot the Gay' competition, but did Kenneth Williams (Sandy) ever officially come out? And what about Julian (Hugh Paddick)?

We often used to hear about the friends of Gordon. One of the biggest laughs for me was when we finally met Gordon. He wasn't the type at all.

For those who are mystified by all this listen to 'Round the Horne' on Wednesdays at 8.00 am, 12 noon or 7pm (GMT) BBC7. Our overseas friends can listen via the internet. It can be heard at any time convenient to you on:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

Details on the first page.

Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: What a gay day!  [message #38672 is a reply to message #38667] Sun, 12 November 2006 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

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You know, sometimes I listen to BBC7 - when I have an odd half hour free. I have found that none of those radio shows that I used to love can even produce in me a chuckle any more - except Beyond Our Ken and Round The Horne, which after more than 40 years are as hilarious as they ever were. Half an hour of the Kenneth Horne shows is the most wonderful cure for the 'blues'.

I recall, as a schoolboy, that the morning after the Goon Show it was de rigeur to be able to reproduce every single moment of the show in sequence. Now, it hardly produces a smile. Damn! I must have grown up too much.

PS. I always thought that 'polari' was a typical KW corruption of the Italian verb "parlare", to speak. Am I being too sophisticated?

And while unshamefacedly lapsing into acute nostalgia, may I ask whether anyone else, like the child I once was, just had to finish off an Enid Blyton book in one reading. Où sont les neiges d'antan?

[Updated on: Mon, 13 November 2006 08:12]




The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: What a gay day!  [message #38680 is a reply to message #38672] Sun, 12 November 2006 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Enid in a day? Of course!

Polari is also palare or palari. It is said to have Romany origins, but thye verb is very latinate.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: The word 'gay'  [message #38711 is a reply to message #38647] Sun, 12 November 2006 16:49 Go to previous message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

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Nigel said,
>Sorry about the misquote, but life has to go on and things fitted in as best as possible.

I didn't correct you because I was being pedantic; the only reason I highlighted the misquote was because I think there is a difference in meaning between, "I might act gay, but I'm not really that way..." and "I might act gay, but not in that way..."

The second has more emphasis and it expects (even requires) that the audience will read the word "gay" as innuendo. The first (in my opinion) does not -- not only does it not require any innuendo to make perfect sense, I would be inclined to believe, bearing in mind when it was written, that the author wasn't even aware of it.

In other words, I think we're reading the original sentence differently, as highlighted by your misquote -- I wouldn't have paraphrased it like that because I didn't read it in that way!

I am perfectly willing to admit I could be wrong, though, because I don't know enough about the etymology of the word "gay".

Hugs,

David
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