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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If I were to describe a prominent and influential male figure who often stated that homosexuality was "wrong" and used biblical references to show it, but of whom it has been reported in 1993 that he has been disciplined as a teacher "for having an inappropriate relationship with a male student" (the students in the institution in question can be considered to be above the age of majority), what conclusions, if any, would you draw?
[Updated on: Wed, 29 November 2006 09:58]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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My first conclusion would be that he had originally had a great struggle: with his conscience, with his beliefs, with his reputation, with those around him (or more precisely their view of him). Finally his real self could no longer bear the suppression and burst out.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And if he currently is wholly anti-gay, especially anti allowing gay students within "his" institution?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Without knowing anything else, I'd be inclined to think the person was not fully heterosexual by nature. People who are publicly strongly against homosexuality are often trying to convince *themselves* that they *can't* be (even partly) homosexual.
And I never know quite what to make of it. On the one hand, it's obviously hypocritical, and causes active distress to and discrimination against, people who *do* recognise that they are partly or wholely homosexual. On the other hand, I find it very sad that anyone can accept the lies so much that they blind themselves to what they are, and wonder what kind of upbringing and background they had.
None of which would stop me "outing" such a person - the ONLY situation in which I think it's appropriate to do so is where a persons practice and their preaching are at odds with each other.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have some facts to marshall. I have to do the marshalling in case these allegations are in any way libellous, precisley because this man is an important figure (though a little known one outside his direct sphere of influence)
There is a large discussion coming up in which he is a principal adversary of gay people being allowed into certain formal positions both within "his" institution and globally.
If the relevant papers respond to me soon I hope to be able to quote their articles and the subject matter. If not I will point you to a wikipedia discussion page behind the article on this man.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Gosh, Timmy, the suspense is killing! ;-D
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The man is Rabbi Joel Roth, and he is an influential figure, a highly influential figure, in Conservative Judaism, which, you may recall, is to decide in December on the ordination of gay Rabbis, the celebration of same sex marriage and much else.
Roth is a staunch opponent of this and dislikes anything homosexual. He is a key player in this debate.
The allegations are stated thus:
According to http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/danny_gordis.htm "In 1993, Conservative legal scholar and Jewish Theological Seminary professor Joel Roth was disciplined for having an inappropriate relationship with a male student (reported in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency by Debra Nussbaum-Cohen). I wonder if that student was Danny Gordis? Gordis and Roth were close during the 1980s and they published responsa (answers to questions about Jewish law) together."
According to the article in the JTA at http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-2238131.html
"DEAN OF JTS RABBINICAL SCHOOL RESIGNS AFTER MAKING SEXUAL REMARK TO. STUDENT
NEW YORK, April 4 (JTA)--Rabbi Joel Roth, dean of the Jewish Theological Seminary's rabbinical school, has resigned in the wake of a scandal that has derailed the career of the Conservative movement's most prominent interpreter of Jewish law and tradition.
Roth resigned from the position March 29, several days after allegedly making a sexually explicit statement to a student at the seminary's West Coast affiliate, the Los Angeles-based University of Judaism. "
Getting any deeper into the JTA archive requires a credit card, so I am not going there.
It was also reported back in 1993 in the New York Times and in Haaretz.
This is also reported on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Roth as a reference and in the current final text paragraph.
Does that help you with the background you need in order to form an opinion?
[Updated on: Wed, 29 November 2006 14:20]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Interesting.
As I see it, Wikipedia says "Roth is also author of a responsum arguing that homosexuality is forbidden specifically to Jews, supporting reaffirmation of the Conservative movement's current stance excluding open homosexuals from JTS rabbinic and cantorial schools, but arguing against a view that homosexuality is generally immoral or a social wrong ".
(If true), that in my view adequately discharges the obligation he may have arising from any possible/alleged past or current homosexual tendencies, feelings or actions.
I may not like his apparent view very much, but I'd see his stance as essentially honourable if (IMO) misguided.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It does seem somewhat challenging that he is alleged to have made improper advances to a gentleman and yet campaigns against admitting homosexuals to the rabbinate, though.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> It does seem somewhat challenging that he is alleged to have made improper advances to a gentleman and yet campaigns against admitting homosexuals to the rabbinate, though.
Oh, I agree it's challenging. but if he really does defend the point of view that there's nothing wrong with being gay per se, I see no incongruity. I have only the wikipedia article to go on in this respect.
There's nothing wrong with refusing to "sign" the official secrets act, and I fully support anyone who takes that position (as I once did). But I accept that anyone who is currently refusing to sign the official secrets act should not have a job where they are privy to certain sorts of confidential information. Unfortunately, the Official Secrets Acts is not a document that one can choose which bits of to abide by - it's pretty much all-or-nothing. And I'm sure that Rabbi Roth would feel the same would apply to his holy writings and traditions, and that anyone who felt unable to agree with the writings and traditions as currently interpreted should seek to learn about the traditions and writings elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong - I really don't like his point of view. I think he's mistakened and misguided. I think his personal motives are suspect. But I would only consider that his previous apparent homosexual tendencies had relevance if he was putting down gay people in general, rather than on the specific issues of entry to the Rabbinate, and Rabbis blessing gay unions etc.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I think that it would be possible to construct a valid argument that as Roth was a Rabbi at the time of his 'indiscretion' he has a moral obligation to abstain from the current debate. And, since he has chosen not to do so, it logically follows that opponents should be able to construct a valid argument that his views should be disregarded.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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i feel sorry for the poor guy in a way out of fear and fear of rejection (also i think also being a jew myself i had it brainwashed into me it was wrong as im sure cathloic kids are and have it pumped into them both jews and catholic are told worse things is sin and gulit is a massive tool on the faiths)we all sometime say and do things we regret i mean how many gay kids growing up also pretend to be straigh and pick on more obvious gay kids so that their own sexuality is protected i know a few i wont mention
[Updated on: Thu, 30 November 2006 03:57]
Jay, I love u. You are my heart and my soul.
You are my other half. The final piece to my puzzle. I am complete when I am with you.
You turn a dark day into a bright sunny day.
You make me giddy with joy.Just from hearing your voice.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That is, I think, the point.
There is a difference between one's private and one's public actions. Since Joel Roth's head is over the parapet, and since this 1993 scandal, which was rather well hushed up, was substantial enough for hom to resign, it seems that he has disqualified himself from this debate.
Or, at the very least, he should declare "an interest".
I do not yet have the JTA article. I am told it was also picked up at the time by Haaretz and the New York Times. So far the only item mentioning the gender of the person approached is the Luke Ford site, whcih is not authoritative.
Should it turn out that the person approached was male and should this be substantiated, it looks very awkward for Roth's stance.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Generally speaking I do not approve at all of anonymous communications, but I do appreciate that sometimes it might be difficult for people to stand up and be counted. In view of this thread which Timmy initiated I am sharing with you this anonymous communication which just turned up in my professional inbox. I have no idea who it came from. Please note the reference to Rabbi Dr Joel Roth in one of the last paragraphs of the article: he has been the subject of this thread.
As a Rabbinical student in one of the Conservative Movement Rabbinical Schools, spending the year studying in Israel at the Schechter Institute, I am both proud and ashamed of my Movement in regard to the handling of the decision as to whether we will accept Gays.
On December 6, we have been told, the Law Committee of the Rabbinical Assembly (the organization of Conservative rabbis) will hand down decisions on the permissibility of ordaining Out Gays. The presumption is that at least two opinions will be accepted as valid. Perhaps more than two if the political machinations of the traditionalists fail. It seems there will be an effort to declare two responsa, one by Rabbi Gordon Tucker and one by Rabbis David and Robert Fine, to be Takanot (innovatory) and hence require more than six votes to be accepted. The procedure for declaring a responsum to be a innovatory does NOT appear in the constitution of the Rabbinical Assembly and has been introduced by those seeking to hijack a process long in place and prevent progress in this area.
In any case it is thought that a traditional responsum (by Rabbi Joel Roth) and a more progressive responsum by Rabbis Dorf, Nevins, and Resiner will obtain the necessary six votes. This will mean that all Conservative Rabbinical Schools will be allowed to ordain Gays. The Zeigler School (University of Judaism in Los Angeles) has announced that if the progressive responsum is accepted, they will immediately accept Gay applicants. The Chancellor elect of the Jewish Theological Seminary (New York) has put in place a process to help JTS come to a decision. While he is not a rabbi, Professor Arnie Eisen is on record as supporting ordination of Gays.
I am proud of my Movement for having the courage to struggle with this issue. We have the only group of rabbis who are struggling with the difficult seeming conflict between Jewish Law, as it has been traditionally understood, and the need for Jewish Law to evolve through interpretation.
I am proud of the University of Judaism for taking a stand that will surely be unpopular with many of our members.
I am proud of the forty JTS students who stood outside of the gates of the institution, last week, with mouths covered by tape to protest the silencing of Gays in our Movement.
I am proud of Professor Eisen for taking a firm stand when it is almost certain to offend many donors to JTS.
I am proud of the students here in Israel who sported stickers at the ordination of Israeli Conservative rabbis, that said “Rabbinic Ordination for All” on a rainbow flag background.
I am proud of the 270 Gay friendly Conservative rabbis who have signed on to keshetrabbis.org.
Yet I am also ashamed.
I am ashamed that it has taken us so long to reach this day. Perhaps that is the price of membership in a movement that prefers evolutionary change to revolutionary change.
I am ashamed at what was the clear effort of the outgoing Chancellor, Ismar Schorsch, to stack the Law Committee with appointments of people who have little sympathy for Conservative Judaism beyond taking a paycheck and fails to express concern for the pain his position causes to so many.
I am ashamed of the dean of the Israeli Rabbinical School, Rabbi Einat Ramon, who in an Haaretz article last week accused those who are more liberal on the issue of Gay ordination, of “intellectual totalitarianism.” Indeed the head of the Schechter Institute, Rabbi David Golinkin called the entire matter of Gay ordination irrelevant for Israelis (this after the near riots concerning the Jerusalem Pride Parade and the registration of married Gay couples).
I am ashamed that the Movement is willing to allow Rabbi Joel Roth to author the traditional opinion considering his sordid sexual past (see “Joel Roth” in the Wikipedia online encyclopedia).
So I am proud and I am ashamed. But I hope that come December 6, I will say with pride, “This is the day that the Lord has made, let us be happy and rejoice today.”
Anonymous
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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'I am ashamed that the Movement is willing to allow Rabbi Joel Roth to author the traditional opinion considering his sordid sexual past (see “Joel Roth” in the Wikipedia online encyclopedia).'
I wish we could get chapter and verse on this. It could be anything from "Nice butt, Judith" to "Hey Jacob, come sleep with me". Right now we only know what has been surmised in the Luke Ford site and what has been alluded to in the JTA article preview.
I regret that none of the news organs concerned has yet seen fit to respond with any message whatsoever.
If any of you have authoritative sources I'd veyr much appreciate their being posted here.
[Updated on: Thu, 30 November 2006 18:03]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I've been "watching" the wikipedia article. The paragraph which discloses Roth's resignation has been deleted, then reinstated. I suspect it will come and go like Boy George's Karma Chameleon. Such is the nature of Wikipedia - not an entirely authoritative text!
Nonetheless the removal of the paragraph and the referecne does show that people love a whitewash.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is still anonymous, but it is on http://jewschool.com, whcih gibve sit some intellectual weight.
What interested me are the comments at http://jewschool.com/?comments_popup=11514 though they contain a load of jargon that I don't understand.
It seems that the article has mostly polarised those who have expressed an opinion into the "Pro Joel Roth" camp. That hardly surprises me. After all, 10% of the populace are homosexual, so why would I expect the polarisation to be different?
In the main I think Roth is a side issue. I agree with comment #30 by Naftali Bergl. Roth may or may not by a hypocrite. I guess that's between him and his god, and really also between him and his peers. I think his lapse in 1993 probably shoudl have disqualified him from doing more than advising the panel (is it a panel?) on points of Jewish law (I imagine it is law?). I suspect his grand tour of the USA saying "Gay rabbis are coming - how dreadful" was wholly inappropriate.
The main issue is the lengths the clergy go to in order to pack the house with their own views. If there is a god, let's trust to his (her?) wisdom to ensure that human beings behave well towards each other.
Was it Danny Gordis who complained against Joel Roth's alleged unwelcome sexual advances back in 1993? I've not seen it reported except on Luke Ford's site. The way Ford reports it, well, it does seem likely. I odn;t imagine we'll ever know unless Gordis goes into print over it.
If I were running this panel I would have relegated Roth to the advisory panel and had him backstage, not right bang in the spotlight. But I'm not. And it looks like a load of biased clerics are.
Am I surprised?
Not in the least.
Would I be ashamed of the motley crew assembled to make a decision?
No. I'd be ashamed (assuming I had been brave enough to be an openly homosexual friendly Rabbi, and http://keshetrabbis.org has so many, that I had not attempted to get on the panel myself, had not kicked the door down.
But I appreciate that life is not black and white. Personal circumstances mean that so many people genuinely cannot support this openly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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