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I think someone has jinxed my computer. It was working perfectly until a few days ago.
Yesterday my optical mouse stopped working -- or rather, it still works, but very inaccurately and intermittently, which is far more annoying.
The PSU fan started making whooshing noises randomly as it turned itself on and off for no apparent reason (which is very stressful, bearing in mind that if the fan stops the chances are it will overheat).
In the middle of the night a cable jumped into a fan, and I had to take the computer apart while half asleep to get it to shut up.
One of my hard disks makes loud intermittent clicks and sometimes hangs the boot-up process -- I expect it'll fail pretty soon, so I can't put anything worthwhile on it.
Today the PSU fan gave up altogether, but luckily I had a spare (albeit a cheap one) to hand.
I just broke the power connector on my firewire card while trying to insert the a 4-pin molex connector from the new PSU into the socket.
The sound card has started giving odd errors on startup, and only works 50% of the time after booting.
Windows takes about 5 minutes to shut down (though I accept that's normal for anything other than a clean installation).
There's a built-in fan on my motherboard (a chipset fan, not the CPU fan) which has given up the ghost, and it's soldered on, so I can't (easily) replace it.
One of the external hard drives makes an annoying periodic buzzing.
The CPU has jumped about 10 degrees (currently it's 58 degrees C) for some, unknown reason. Maybe the new PSU isn't as good at clearing the warm air from inside the case as the old one was.
And my nose has felt awful since I blew out the dust from inside the case and ended up breathing most of it in.
This is a computer that has been running pretty constantly for 6 years, in an assortment of environments, though with occasional components replaced from time to time.
David
[Updated on: Fri, 01 December 2006 17:13] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think that computer owes you nothing, though. 6 years is ok
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Sounds horrid!
Also sounds a bit as though the PSU may be dodgy - an overvoltage can cause the errors, dead fans, temperature rise, etc. and premature failure of the components.
If you detect the rather expensive voice of experience, you are not wrong !
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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It's really a Ship of Theseus. The only original components were the case and the PSU -- now just the case. I still think of it as the same computer, though.
All of the following have been replaced at least once in the intervening period (rough years):
- The DVD drive (2000)
- The mouse (2000)
- The sound card (2000)
- One hard disk (2003)
- The motherboard, processor and RAM (2004)
- Another hard disk (2005)
- The case fans (2005)
- The firewire card (2005)
- The graphics card (2005)
- (today) The PSU (2006)
The dodgy hard disk and the motherboard in particular are only a year or two old.
David
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Well, the PSU was all right for about 5 years, so (unless they start going funny in their old age) I think it's probably okay. I'd be more inclined to worry about the new one, which only cost £7 or £8 (IIRC -- I bought it as a spare and it's a couple of years old).
Moving parts have a habit of breaking much more frequently than solid-state electronics. Most of the problems are with things with moving parts. I took the old PSU apart and tested the fan and I think it's just the fan that is broken, which is not really surprising considering how dusty it was. I may replace the fan and then give it a quick going-over with my multimeter (if I can be bothered).
I've turned up the speed on the CPU fan, which I had turned right down. I think that may have been the reason for the high temperature.
David
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David, it sounds like the time to cut your losses and buy peace of mind. I appreciate that's difficult for a student, but Christmas is coming.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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I don't think buying a new computer provides peace of mind -- it means there are a few dozen more components to go wrong! At least with this one, when something goes wrong I know which part to replace.
I'll get a new computer in a couple of years, once I'm earning (assuming I actually am earning at that point).
David
[Updated on: Fri, 01 December 2006 18:43] |
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The PSU voltages on the new PSU are all about right or slightly low (12V is actually 11.6V, for instance). I doubt that will make a huge amount of difference; at least, it shouldn't fry anything. I haven't tested the old one yet, but it's probably not a good idea to test it while it doesn't have a fan.
David
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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David I can not understand how a wire could fall into the fan unit.
I know you are at uni but it does sound as if you have pieces of hardware all over the place.
Fans run on bearings if they start making a noise then you must replace the unit.
I am not an expert on p.c like you but I do know that you must keep a tidy house or things will go wrong.
if a hard drive starts making a noise you would back up straight away.:-[
life is to enjoy.
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>I can not understand how a wire could fall into the fan unit.
It is very easy if the wire is not tied down. It's especially easy for CPU fans which are not usually protected.
I am not sure why it happened in the middle of the night, either, but I managed to fix it while I was still half-asleep and when I woke up in the morning I'd already dealt with it, so it's no longer an issue.
>I know you are at uni but it does sound as if you have pieces of hardware all over the place.
I have spare pieces of hardware all over the place. Is that what you mean? Once they're inside the computer they are plugged into the right slots. I don't leave wires trailing outside the case. While I try and keep them rational inside the case there are a huge number so occasionally one gets somewhere it shouldn't.
>am not an expert on p.c like you but I do know that you must keep a tidy house or things will go wrong.
It's very tidy from a technical point of view. I'm always extremely careful to make sure that things like hard disks, CPUs etc. are adequately cooled. That's why the dodgy fans have bothered me, and why the high CPU temperature makes me a little nervous.
>Fans run on bearings if they start making a noise then you must replace the unit.
It depends what causes the noise. Sometimes it's just dust, in which case you can get away with blowing it away. PSUs are not supposed to be user-serviceable, which means that repairing them is not always easy.
>if a hard drive starts making a noise you would back up straight away.
It is the backup drive; its sole purpose is to guard against the failure of any of the other disks. Thus is not a major crisis if it fails, provided it doesn't fail simultaneously with another.
David
[Updated on: Fri, 01 December 2006 19:11] |
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I've turned up the speed on the CPU fan, which I had turned right down. I think that may have been the reason for the high temperature.
I wouldn't turn down the psu fan, since the psu components dissipate a lot of heat. Instead I bought a 400W psu with a 120mm fan, and removed the grille in front of the fan. It is stable and dead silent.
Stay with your old ship, Deeej, and keep replacing its rotten planks! A new computer will only introduce new and unexpected sources of annoyance into your life.
Btw, did you say that you were using Windows? :-/
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Sailor said,
>Btw, did you say that you were using Windows?
I was waiting for someone to ask that... 
Actually, I said that Windows takes about five minutes to shut down. That's why I avoid it whenever possible. I will admit to having used it a little recently for an audio editing project, however.
My Debian installation is several years old and never has problems of that nature (touch wood).
There's not a lot of point in getting new fans, because the case already has seven, and replacing one won't make much difference to the overall noise level. (My two hard disks have two fans each; I instituted the policy of putting on extra hard disk fans after I bought a seriously warm-running 160GB Maxtor.)
The speed of the PSU fan doesn't seem to make a huge amount of difference. Generally the difference between noisy and quiet is only a degree or two. Internal air temperature of the case is 27 degrees.
David
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I will admit to having used it a little recently for an audio editing project, however.
Yes, even the recent SuSE 10.1 I use has its obvious shortcomings when it comes to software for multimedia.
I agree that having several fans running at low speed is better and quieter than one or two.
It take it that this is not your typical arrangement:
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Sailor said,
>Yes, even the recent SuSE 10.1 I use has its obvious shortcomings when it comes to software for multimedia.
The shortcomings are not usually with the OS itself but with the lack of commercial software and drivers from software and hardware manufacturers. The problem is that professional creative types (musicians, editors, sound designers, artists etc.) go for the platform with the software they want to use, and that's almost always Mac OS or Windows. Thus there is no incentive for the manufacturers to port their software to other platforms.
Love the "arrangement". It's amazing what things people have used as cases for their computers -- there are lots of photographs of small form factor computers at: http://www.mini-itx.com/
David
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not overly much to contribute here, you know what you are doing it would seem...
dust in the case was my major issue when it came to noise i discovered. i'm quite proud that my PC is nice and quiet, and remains so even after my recent PSU upgrade, but the dust in the case prior to that was blocking grilles, causing the fans to work harder (more noise) and also causing problems rotational wise... also noise issues
guessing you sorted all that though...
as for high CPU temp now... was it before or after the PSU upgrade?
obviously, a newer more powerful PSU will also put out more heat than a less powerful model. its own fans will deal with this, but it can also raise the overall internal temperature, which, if your other fans were on the blink, could explain the raise inside... 10C is a lot though... :-/
maybe its simply the case that some of your components are getting old. i appreciate that parts can last a long time, even if they become "obsolete" by the current market standard, but sometimes they just gotta go.
my DVD-RAM drive just totally stopped working 2 weeks ago, annoying right after i replaced the PSU. still showed on bios and all, but when you pressed the buttons, manually or via PC to open it, lights came on, and that was all. considered opinion of my techie friends was that the drive motor had gone. it was only a year and a half old. though i have a poor track record with CD drives anyways...
before the CD was the PSU, before that the graphics card needed upgrading, all in the last 4 weeks or so, so i can relate to the frustration.
interestingly, some other problems i was having with various glitches and bugs were solved simply by reformatting. its amazing the improvments you can make by just reformatting your main drive
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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I've had a go at the dust. The really old dust has largely gone now (most of it up my nose). The computer's not much quieter but it's not making the random buzzy noises it was: that's a start, at least.
The new PSU is not much more powerful (250W vs. 200W ish). Before anyone says that's not enough, the old 200W PSU worked fine with this setup for years. Most people these days seem to have vastly overpowered PSUs. There's nothing the matter with having 500W at your disposal, but I worry about how efficient they are -- you could be wasting a whole 100W in power before it even hits the electronics.
I think, on reflection, that the increased processor temperature is attributable to me working it heavily, having the fan speed down, and not using any cooling software.
Do you mean DVD-RAM or one of DVD-RW/DVD+RW? DVD-RAM is more specialised and generally more expensive.
I've no doubt that Windows could be sorted out by reformatting, but it would waste an awful lot of my time (even though I have clean drive images somewhere). Linux has never needed reformatting, and it was under Linux that the sound card kept coming and going. I found a workaround for that, luckily.
David
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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well david you have a nice way of saying mind
your own business.
it is a wonder you have freinds when you talk down to people.
i did not understand that when you made your post it was not opent to comments.
life is to enjoy.
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jack said,
>well david you have a nice way of saying mind your own business.
This from the one person on the board who has consistently refused to give out any information that could possibly let us get to know him better.
Do the words pot, kettle and black mean anything to you?
>it is a wonder you have freinds when you talk down to people.
I was not intending to talk down to anyone, and if it sounded like that I apologise. However, talking to someone in understandable terms does not mean dumbing down one's manner of speech or adopting a childish tone when posting, as you seem to, which is arguably much more patronising.
David
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Jack,
I, for one, don't read Deeej's reply to you as a way of telling you to mind your own business.
And I do like to think that Deeej is one of my friends.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, I think he had a way of saying what happened. I don't support his telling you off (lower down), but I don't support your telling him off either.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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o.k.
I over reacted sorry David.
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am sorry for my rude reply, jack. It was unnecessary.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ten minutes ago there was a sudden hiss from the computer and a strong, chemically smell of burning (a bit like fireworks).
The computer continued to run fine, but I shut it down and looked inside anyway. There are no signs of anything amiss.
So I've turned it on again and am writing this post. What could it possibly be?
The most likely thing is that somehow some dust got burnt (though dust doesn't usually smell chemically, does it?). It didn't smell like a burnt insect (i.e. horrible) though I saw a couple of small insects flying around somewhat bemusedly afterwards.
The frightening thing is not that that happened, but that there is anywhere hot enough inside the computer to achieve that.
Then again, there is the remote possibility that the smell of burning drifted in through the window and I am getting worked up over nothing.
David
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I ought to add that there is nothing inside the case that is hot or even warmer than body temperature to the touch, so, whatever it was, it must be deep inside.
Methinks that I ought to get a new, good quality PSU sooner rather than later, as the most likely place for the smell to have come from is the cheap replacement PSU.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 05 December 2006 13:54] |
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dyllbrad
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 34
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sounds like a job for the pc/laptop exorcist david lol
dyll's jac's cousin brad is my boyfriend...
so wat if i kissed another boy in class and got caught
(THIS MAY WELL BE OUR LAST POST)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In general that comes fomr transformer windings. The insulation is probably lacquer and it just means two adjacent turns of the copper have shorted out through what was a weakness inthe lacquer coat. There will be no heat, just a marginally downgraded transformer.
I have a sewing machine whose motor does the same thing.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Ah, thank you very much, Timmy. I would never have guessed that!
Presumably if it does it a very large number of times the voltage will raise or lower itself slightly (depending on which side the coil shorted)?
David
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Perhaps I could ask the religious among you to pray for my computer?
All my components are reaching their end of life, I think (even though some of them are only a couple of years old). Whatever happened to "building something to last"? It's presumably not worth it these days of instant electronic obsolescence.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Spot on.
Generally it happens on the side where the thinner windings are, probably because they are more stressed when the transformer is wound, and also because there is a greater length of the thinner wire so the probability of a fault is increased by virtue of more wire being present.
It is likely that the fusing of a pair of turns has weakened the lacquer nearby, and a chain failure will result eventually
Very few people have ever bothered to look at a transformer closely, so it's little wonder you thought right past it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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If it's the 240V side that went this means that if there is a chain reaction then the voltage will drop to zero on the 12V side without hazarding the electronic components (because too low a voltage shouldn't hurt them).
If the thinner windings are on the 12V side and there's a chain reaction then there is a serious hazard to the electronics, because the voltage will shoot up.
Which side is more likely to have the thinner wires? I would guess the 240V side, because the current is lower and there will be more windings, but I'm not sure.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 05 December 2006 22:49] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If my physics are correct, along with a drop in voltage a decrease in impedance will occur and along with that there is a possibility of a spike in current.
This scenerio can be problematic to intergrated circuitry.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I can't remember that far back to my physics lessons. But I suggest it is a unit in the process of failure and suggest a decent one be acquired without undue delay. Marc seems to have a better memory for physics than I.
One thing I suggest is that it remains in the state it is in currently! Off is better than on, but switching on and off is likely to improive the probability of catastrophic failure.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Is it possible to have a spike in current? I thought electronics draw a certain amount of current, and no more. Thus you can use only 0.1 amps on a 13 amp mains socket if that is all the equipment requires. One more commonly talks about a spike in voltage.
David
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I'm beginning to think it might actually be a good idea to repair my old PSU by putting in a new fan. It ran for six years pretty much non-stop without any problems (except for a failed fan). This one hasn't even gone for six days without doing its best to upset me.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Current is inversly proportionate to the resistance and voltage.
As voltage rises current deminishes proportionatly.... and visa versa.... provided the resistance remains constant.
But there are several variables that contribute to what happens within a coil....
Impedance, phase angle, conductivity and relative magnetic permiability....
All these factors have a direct effect on multitasking transformer assemblies.
Also to be considered are eddie current fields as well as depth of penetration of relative fields as they relate to one another within the assembly proper.
All that aside, in easy to understand terms, I would be looking to replace the power supply asap.
[Updated on: Tue, 05 December 2006 23:26]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> I can't remember that far back to my physics lessons. But I suggest it is a unit in the process of failure and suggest a decent one be acquired without undue delay. Marc seems to have a better memory for physics than I.
>
> One thing I suggest is that it remains in the state it is in currently! Off is better than on, but switching on and off is likely to improive the probability of catastrophic failure.
That is very true.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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There is also, presumably, the chance that this power supply will never have a fault again in its life.
I've tested the voltages with my multimeter and they're all a little low but otherwise okay.
I think I will replace the fan in the old PSU with the one in the new PSU and hopefully be able to prolong its life.
I'm off to do that now.
David
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Re: I feel like ranting 
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