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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The answer is that we probably do not. But we can check that they are roughly where they say they are by checking IP addresses. Even with global services like AOL the IP address is faithful to a continent.
The board does not display them, of couse. I have it set not to. But emails reveal IP addresses in their headers.
What are other ways we can tell if someone is who they say they are?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, we never really know if anyone is real, do we? Even people we know well in real life may have major and unexpected things to them that totally contradict the part of themselves they show in public. The hardworking man who also sits on the board of several charities may run several mistresses and beat his children (as my father did ...), or be a closet paedophile, or whatever.
But any inconsistencies in what a person says should make us suspicious. And - unless they're very personal matters - if they shy away from discussing the subjects of these inconsistencies, we can proceed with caution. But at the same time, we need to recognise that people may express emotional truths which may not exactly correspond with how others see it - a closet transsexual might post as gender-of-choice, not gender-of-birth, for example.
And there are a very few of us who are in the fortunate position of being able to connect our posts here to our real-world existence - I'm one, in that I can easily be connected to (one of) my websites, which has my CV and stuff on it. Of course, I could be spoofing that identity ...
And there is the issue of regular posters here who have real-world contact - phone numbers or who have met each other. It's not foolproof - but people who interact both on this board and realworld are less likely to fool each other, I think.
All of which rambling leads me to say that we can't know for sure that people are who they say they are ... either online or realworld. But we can be suspicious if stories don't add up, we can form an impression of people and be cautious to start with, and we can do our best to protect ourselves against the consequences of getting it wrong.
Or we can trust no-one. But that's a very sad way to spend a life ....
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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detail is key to me
i remember once aksing a guy where he was from. got an answer.
next time we talked, i feigned forgetfulness and asked the same question.
got a very different answer. the excuse for it just wasn't believable.
consistancy is good.
i've also only met one person that i hadn't seen previously on webcam. webcam ovwer MSN or a similar service is not hard easy to fake, though not, i admit, impossible.
for certs, i would be suspicious of those who ask for photos but offer none, ask for cam, but offer nothing.
links are good too.
in my profile here you'll find links to the website of Keele University LGBT society. in the committee section of said website you'll find a link that leads to a page all about me, including pictures.
when you get/discover such links, see if the information displayed matches with what you know.
i for one haven ever had a bad experience meeting any one i've met online, and in the last 4-5 years i've met a good number of people. i may have been lucky... but caution is never a bad thing. if you get bad vibes, or feel worry, trust your instincts
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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Whitop
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Toe is in the water |
Location: USA
Registered: June 2005
Messages: 73
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Timmy,
Can you post -How to get IP addresses from eMail addresses and -How to find the location information they carry, for the less compliterate here? (or eMail me?) Should be useful as will any further replies to your excellent post. Thanks, Mac
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The site http://www.dnsstuff.com has all the tools you need. It looks daunting, but try them all out. The "Whois" tool tells you which ISP. Even global ISPs have national IP address ranges, so the nation is normally easy enough to tie down. Be aware that there are exceptions. It is posisble to use a proxy server in one nation and to be located in another.
Emails have headers. Those headers contain IP addresses or clues to what the IP address should be with domain names. I tend to run out of technical skill here, so I'll be very happy for an expert to jump in and correct me.
You want to set your email client or your webmail application to show you the full headers. Now your detective work can start.
Here is a header from some spam I received. I've disfigured my own email addresses:
From buriqapwy@cgb.com Sat Dec 9 08:32:36 2006
Return-Path:
X-Original-To: its_only_my_mailing_list
Delivered-To: its_onlyme
Received: from [221.131.61.26] (unknown [221.131.61.26])
by iomfats.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FEF04C3002F
for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2006 08:32:35 +0000 (UTC)
From: "SR"
To: its_only_my_mailing_list
Subject: Re: Hello my friend.
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:32:34 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/related;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C71BAF.A146B1A0"
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510
Thread-Index: Accbr6FGyduch51BQ3ua35AlyS11GA==
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869
Message-Id:
Status: R
OK, now the detective work:
cgb.com is
CGB Enterprises, Inc.
1001 US Highway 190
East Service Road
Covington, LA 70433
US
Since this is spam we know the "from address" is faked, but, if it were genuine, this person is part of a US corporation (0.9 probability)
But we know it is faked, because it comes from China:
http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=221.131.61.26 shows you that
If you just look at my own email domain of iomfats.org you don't get much information:
http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=iomfats.org - all you see is that for this site I value my privacy
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Even in the real world it is always a leap of faith when we meet someone new. The only arsenal each of us has to fall back on is common sense, intuition and faith in our own good judgment.
Online, the rules are the same if only expanded by the global platform we all are wandering in.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Rather like your offering me the chance to visit for the weekend. We knew enough about each other to be confident that we were each who we said we were, and that we would get on sufficiently well for it at least not to be a disaster.
Reality proved that we knew each other well enough and it was a great weekend.
Before we met we had chatted long and pretty much knew what we were each letting ourselves in for. 
And the visit cemented the friendship, which was great.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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You can also enjoy using http://www.maxmind.com/app/locate_ip to locate the city, but this is, I think, on dnsstuff.com as well
Emails can have multiple IP addresses in them. When I find one I will post it and interpret it. It is important to use the right one. Hotmail, for example, tracks the IP it was sent from AND the IP that you logged in from.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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A more complex email header:
From someone@hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 02:16:26 2006
Return-Path:
X-Original-To: its_onlyme....
Delivered-To: its_onlyme....
Received: from bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.213])
by iomfats.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AABA4C30022
for ; Sat, 9 Dec 2006 02:16:26 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from hotmail.com ([64.4.56.17]) by bay0-omc3-s13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668);
Fri, 8 Dec 2006 18:16:25 -0800
Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC;
Fri, 8 Dec 2006 18:16:25 -0800
Message-ID:
Received: from 64.4.56.244 by by101fd.bay101.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:16:20 GMT
X-Originating-IP: [80.177.205.10]
X-Originating-Email: [someone@hotmail.com]
X-Sender: someone@hotmail.com
In-Reply-To:
From: "Someone’s name"
To: its_onlyme....
Subject: Subject line
Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:16:20 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Dec 2006 02:16:25.0510 (UTC) FILETIME=[07217460:01C71B38]
Status: R
X-Status: A
This is from a real email, sent through hotmail to me. I have removed ALL personal details
Look for X-Originating-IP: [80.177.205.10]
http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=80.177.205.10 shows this is a UK user of the hotmail service. It declares that the user is using a london based IP, but location research using the same tool shows that they are not London based. And this correlates with the personal knowledge I have of my friend
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I think I would like to add a little to the perosnal things area.
A very good friend of mine was sorely deceived by someone who found his profile on a gay dating site. I think it was planetout, but that is immaterial.
They got on well online. Neither had the ability to travel to meet the other, for they were in different countries and seoparated by distance and circumstances.
Much happened and a wonderful online relationship was formed, such that they planned to meet, and, if the meeting was successful, they planned a life together. And there is nothing unusual or wrong in that.
They exchanged emails, they chatted, they used MSN to talk in real words. Pictures were sent each to the other. Webcam was never used, but even webcam is unreliable. The deceiver was allegedly in full time education at a UK Public School. He picked a school where I knew a pupil well, whcih was a serendipitous error. That pupil could not find him! Surprise me some more. But that did not matter
The romance flourished. But then my friend found his love's picture on facepic. At which point trust died, and investigation started.
Suffice it to say, is love was not at school, nor was he even of school age. Instead he was my age. I checked with the school.
The point here is that, even if internet detective work shows them to be in the same location, everything else has to stack up too
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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When someone has AOL as their ISP great care must be taken with determining their location. AOOL is not as easy as it might seem.
http://www.modernbill.com/order-verification/faq.php#3 says: "Many users around the world use AOL to connect online. AOL IP addresses are broken down between the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, and Brazil.
Note: Some French AOL users appear to come from Great Britain or Germany due to the way that AOL routes their traffic through proxy servers.
As you can see, this is complex, the more so when proxy servers are involved
[Updated on: Sun, 10 December 2006 15:55]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There is no longer any need for cloaking one's identity. A simple exchange of letters, real, posted letters, is a great start to ensuring that your beloved (etc) is at least likely to be at the address they say they are at.
It's not foolproof. People can have things "sent to an aunt". But, and this is the point, the planned meeting makes the hiding of a real address suspicious. An online relationship can tolerate almost anythikng, but tow people who plan to meet must be satisfied that each is who and what they say they are.
After all, odd people do exist.
Now, letters can be forwarded. Of course they can. But those who are about to meet should know beyond dispute that their meeting is at least with someone of the age they expect. So an exchange of pictures is useful, the more so if they can be tied to dated material.
From experience, some of it bitter, if people who are going to meet resist this, they are better unmet. There is never, ever "too little time" to do this when personal happiness or personal safety are concerned.
I may turn this into a web page.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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We can never know, as others have said, but we can never know 100% in real life, either. Phone calls, webcam, letters. They are all good indications that tend towards a certain level of truth, but especially when dealing internationally it can be hard to verify.
I've been deceived by people even after talking to them on the phone, sending them letters and seeing them on webcam. Thankfully the intent wasn't hurtful, but it still can cause real pain.
One thing I've noticed is often deceivers will refuse to meet in real life, or at least, if a real life meeting it proposed it will have to be on their own terms. This is a dangerous one, though.
In my opinion there are two types of deceivers online:
Those that are real predators and intend on causing real life harm.
Those that deceive for their own reasons but never intend on what they do leaving the computer.
The latter can be just as hurtful, though, and usually must harder to notice. "My mum says I'm not allowed" and "No way I'm too shy/ nervous" put up 2 great barriers that stop real life contact whether that be face-to-face, phone or webcam. It allows the online deceiver to stay online and to stay deceiving.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I have met several people in person whom I have first only met on line. The first time I met someone it was the person I had first disclosed my past life to in detail and he had done the same with me. I had assured him so some extent by sending my picture and my real address and of course he had my real name and the phone number listed to that name. I had the same things from him and he was in a position where disclosure of his gay side could have been much more destructive to him than to me. I was not worried about him doing anything harmful to me as I figured he had a lot more to lose than I did.
One thing that I think has assured some of those I met on line that I was who I said, was the fact that I gave my real name and age to them as a pre-condition of being able to have them feel safe to meet me. I was also assured as to who they said they were not only by pictures and phone numbers and caller id on the phone, but by the fact we knew other people who would verify the information we were giving to each other. It is not always fool-prrof to do that, but is does lend affirmation in my opinion.
If there is real doubt or any suspicion you can always first meet in a neutral place and in public such as a restaurant. I think also that since I was over 60 years of age and willing to affirm my real identity that those I went to meet were much more assured that I was who I said I was. I was always willing to meet the other person in company of others and the other person should be willing to do the same.
Whenever someone is unwilling to share identity you should have some caution about meeting them at all. A 3rd party can help assure they are truthful about themselves in most cases. But the advice about trusting your instincts is very good advice. If there seems to be something to hide by the other person then you should be more cautious.
In all my instances I figured it was up to me to take the lead with being open with my identity. I figured that since I was willing to admit to my real age, that most would not figure me to lie about most of the other things either. Most of the deciet is about age it seems or sending a false picture and I sent my picture willingly and it showed me as grey haired. I knew I could possibly find myself being fooled by someone pretending to be younger, but I wasnt after a sexual relationship so it made things a bit easier for both of us.
I would always advise extreme caution when meeting someone from here or any other board or site. The parties should be willing to give some kind of proof as to their address or identity and be sure to have some 3rd party involved in knowing the information. If you are going to meet someone then someone else you trust should have information as to who and when and where you are meeting. There should be some way to have the friend contact you after or during the time the meeting is happening to assure you are alright. It doesnt guarantee it will be ok but at least the other person knows that there is another person who knows about the meeting.
Ken
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I think this is a very important thread.
There are twelve people I met via the Internet who know my true identity and my profession. Five of them visit this MB either regularly or from time to time. Most of them know my address, my telephone numbers, and have been in touch with my family at some stage or another. I have met six of them "in real life" - and they each live a very long way away from where I live.
In each case the meeting(s) was either proposed by me or was proposed mutually and was most joyous. Of course, I have only met with people whom I had learned by experience could be trusted implicitly - and they felt the same way about me.
It is truly liberating for people, like me, who have to live their life "in the darkest and deepest corner of the closet" to have people with whom they can be absolutely themselves.
Since those meetings I have been in contact with a few more people from this board and I would very much like to meet them when the opportunity arises.
BUT, I am not a teenager and neither are all those I have met 'in real life' - and that's an understatement if ever there was one. If I had been under, say, 25 I would have been much, much, much more circumspect.
J F R
[Updated on: Mon, 11 December 2006 08:13]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So what you are saying is that you don't really trust the rest of us?
Oh my.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Dear Marc,
If and when I ever get to the USA you will be one of the people I shall visit - if you will have me. But it's a long way and a lot of money - so don't hold your breath!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have learned a long time ago that opportunities are made not stumbled upon.....
I never hold my breath for anyone or anything.....
But, nevertheless, we have a spare room for you when you do visit.
and I have a Kosher cook book or two as well.....
Nothing like a nice hot homemade kugel.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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