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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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On the 3rd of January there is a meeting in Israel of much of the rabbinate of Conservative Judaism where the topic under discussion is ordination of openly gay rabbis and celebration of gay partnership. This follows the decision in New York on 6 December, 2006, for the Conservative Movement to be able to do both of these things. http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=17355&intcategoryid=4 refers and is slow to load. Be patient, pease.
At the 3rd January meeting a very good friend of mine is presenting a paper which I would love to reproduce here, but it is in Hebrew. The paper is firmly in favour of both matters, and interprets the Leviticus apparent prohibtion on homosexuality in a substantially less rigid manner.
This meeting is a discussion rather than a debate. There are two entranched camps, pro and anti. Neither of these camps is important in the overall outcome. The waverers, the "floating voters", the undecided rabbis - these are the imporant part of the audience.
My friend reads this board. He finds it insightful in common sense gay matters. I'm not sure I agree with him totally, but on our behalf I accept his compliment  . My post is to ask simply for your good wishes, either expressed or thought, for his 10 minute speech on the 3rd. May those who hear hsi words interpret what he says as he means it to be interpreted.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And this is going to help the gay community how?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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In several simple ways, some of which I include here:- A major global religion is now accepting and discussing acceptance of outwardly gay clergy
- It is also discussing and accepting religious celebration of gay marriages/unions. While this is nothing to do with partner benefits it is an important step
- Conservative Judaism is one of the strands of Judaism globally. This is not a local matter for Israel. The initial decisions were taken in the USA where Conservative Judaism has a large following
- Every acceptance by a major official body is a step towards emancipation. This is a major official body
- The Leviticus passages being reinterpreted is important because it allows all sexual acts except anal penetration within the context of being obedient to the religion
The question you ask is a reasonable one. The answers are that this is probably not a huge step forward, but a step forward it is. Without The Gay Liberation Front of the 1960s and 1970s, without simple organisations like PFLAG, without gentle pressure groups and strong pressure groups globally, without ordinary, quiet people like you and like me, this could not be happening.
The Conservative part of Judaism allows many conflicting posotions to co-exist. Not every rabbi is required to welcome gay people. But this puts the subject very much onto the table. It is no longer hidden in backwaters and smoke filled discussion rooms. Instead it is a mainstream topic for open discussion by the entire rabbinate.
[Updated on: Mon, 01 January 2007 11:58]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There are so many more things:- Gay people will be able to receive synagogue honours like any other person (To lead services, to read from the Torah, and other liturgical functions)
- They will be able to celebrate life-cycle events like any other person
- They will be able to study for the rabbinate if they want
- They will be able to serve as rabbis
- They Will be able to have religious commitment ceremonies and so forth.
Israel is another country where ultra religious views dominate. If this passes into general acceptance the gay religious person will have a haven where he can live a normal religious life.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is all religous privilege....
and in the grand scheme doesnt do alot....
Without legal rights there is no progress.... only empty promises.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Where State and Religion are intertwined, unlike the USA where they are separated by law, it does more than you say. I absolutely take your point about legal rights. They are more important. And yet being able to practice one's religion in freedom is an important right, albeit without direct benefit in this life.
Steps along other roads that head in the same direction as one's own are useful too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc wrote:
> That is all religous privilege....
>
> and in the grand scheme doesnt do alot....
>
> Without legal rights there is no progress.... only empty promises.
I'd completely agree with the need for legal equality and protection: it's something I've taken seriously for a good many years now!
But, actually, I don't think that it's enough. People break all kinds of laws all the time, because they don't agree with them or because they don't see them as important (speeding laws, drug and alcohol consumption laws, Sunday observance local laws ...). What is needed is a change in what is publicly "acceptable" - much in the way drink-driving has over the past 20 years here in the UK gone from being seen as a desirable macho ritual to being seen as totally unacceptable. And this is the area where I think that religions have a part to play - as opinion-formers (rightly or wrongly). In that sense, I welcome Conservative Judaism constructively engaging in discussion, and can only hope that it will prove less divisive for them than the same issue has proved for the Anglican Communion.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Public acceptance doesn't mean squat when your partner is ill or injured and the hospital refuses to allow you visitation.
That is but one of the legal rights married str8 people enjoy.....
Some others are reguarding ownership, inheretance, health insurance as a family unit....
There are of course more....
And I agree that discourse is good..... But, without the full spectrum of legal recognitions it is not much of a step forward.
I hope it comes to more progress than their lame attempt at a gay pride parade.....
All that aside, the unnamed person Tim mentioned as giving the commentary is indeed worthy of our praise for trying.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> Public acceptance doesn't mean squat when your partner is ill or injured and the hospital refuses to allow you visitation.
>
Oh, I absolutely agree that full legal equality is essential, and that's why I've argued for it and worked for it in a number of ways for the past (nearly) forty years. And it's why I will continue to argue and work for it until we do in fact have full legal equality and protection, rather than the watered-down Civil Partnership, and yet-to-be-decided exemptions from the Equalities Regulations here in the UK.
But I don't think that legal equality is by itself sufficient ... most people actually live their lives by custom and habit, not law.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It is but one route forward. Alongside that route must come other routes. Bear in mind that the Conservative Judaism discussions have already happened in the USA, a nation not well known for upholding the civil rights of any minority unless that minority is wealthy, and that the outcome will influence civil rights discussions there, albeit from a minority religion's perspective.
This is a discussion deep in the heartland of Judaism, in a nation where religion holds power. Such a nation is as outside my own experience as the US Bible Belt. All I know is ghat each type of area presents unique challenges to homosexual men and women. And knowing that a major part of Judaism is having a free and open descussion in Israel says to me "It is a step forward".
Part of the stepping forward is for us to encourage the walkers, much as we encourage the infant when learning to walk. So I applaud when I see an initiative that influences public thought.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi, Marc.
I understand where you are coming from, but, as in so many other things, Israel does things differently from almost every other country. In fact, gay rights are very advanced in the State of Israel. This has not been achieved by legislation in the main but rather by proactive judicial intervention. Certainly, the Knesset has passed some pro-gay legislation. It all began, I suppose, with the repeal of the Sodomy Law in 1988: gays no longer had to rely on clandestine visits to dark corners in Independence Park. Then in 1992 the amendment of the Equal Workplace Opportunities Law to outlaw discrimination in the workplace on grounds of sexual orientation. But much pro-gay progress has been by social pressure: for instance, the decision in 1993 by the top brass of Israel's Defence Forces to (successfully) stamp out harassment within the army on the basis of sexual orientation. (Remember, in Israel military service is compulsory from age 18-21, and thereafter regular reserve duty for several more decades.) In 1998 a lesbian was first elected to the Tel-Aviv municipality and began to be very active in committees etc. Thus Tel-Aviv was the first city in Israel to accord equal rights to same-sex couples as to all other couples.
But, if the LGBT community worldwide ever issues medals of honour, surely one should go to a man named Aharon Barak. This man, a shining example of humane liberalism at its very best, was the Chief Justice of Israel's Supreme Court until the law forced him to retire a few months ago upon reaching the age of 70. Through his 'interpretive' intervention gays were gradually accorded basic rights without the activity of the legislature. Often this was achieved by landmark decisions in individual cases. A famous one was when an employee of El-Al, Israel's national airline, sued the company, demanding that his same-sex partner be accorded all the same rights and privileges as regular spouses. Barak's decision in this case obviated the need for legislation - with much gnashing of teeth among the ultra-religious members of the Knesset. Later, in a similar case, the right of inheritance was recognized. Then followed decisions concerning gay parenting and many, many similar landmark judicial decisions. Barak's very last decision before his retirement was concerning gay marriage. While he could not make gay marriage legitimate in Israel (only the Knesset can do that) he did the next best thing: his decision instructed that where a same-sex marriage had taken place between Israeli citizens outside Israel that marriage must be registered (thus validated) by the Israel Ministry of the Interior ('Home Office'). An Article in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharon_Barak) describes Barak as "the 'John Marshall' of Israel, the 'world's greatest living jurist'.
So, Marc, civil rights for the GLBT community in Israel are way ahead of religious rights. So, if God forbid, you were ever seriously ill in Israel Kevy would certainly be legally qualified to act on your behalf.
Forgive this rambling. Enough for one day. Thanks, Marc, for your interest. Hugs you.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All of your replies are correct.....
The thing is, does a step forward benefit if it pushes other efforts back?
If you don't think a top discussion at the Southern Baptist Convention is going to be.....
"those bastard (praise the lord, amen brother) Jesus killers are going to let them goddamn queers ______________________!!!!!! fill in the blank here as long as it promotes the bible thumping holier than thou christian agenda and increases donations to the cause four fold...
then you are mistaken.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well of course it is going to be on their agenda. But that is no reason for others not to move forward. One cannot stand still for fear of being debated by the imbecilic religious right; instead one might hope that their discussion alienates still more of their alleged faithful
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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