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Am I alone in thinking that the pictures we have been shown of the death of Saddam Hussein were quite horrifying? What was, in fact, a judicial lynch, was euphemistically described as an execution.
I am against the death penalty, in all circumstances and for all crimes. But some countries do retain this barbaric practice of judicial murder, and in such circumstances it is, hopefully, as the result of the fair trial of a wicked, truly wicked, person (such as Saddam Hussein undoubtedly was).
The manner in which such countries do a person to death teaches nothing about the wickedness of the criminal, but speaks volumes about the moral stature of the system under which he suffers. What happened to Saddam Hussein - or rather, the way it happened - is an indelible stain on the present Iraqi régime. It also shows up the complete incompetence of the American forces in Iraq: they weren't able even to control the decency of an execution performed by their own protégés.
There has only been one other scene in recent weeks that has revolted me more, and that was the sight of three young men hanging by the neck from a rope in a public square in Iran: they were guilty of being suspected of being homosexual.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Would you prefer that he was sent into exile to live out the rest of his life in luxury like amin, who had the heads of his people smashed in.
The reason he was hanged was so that people could see he was dead, it will never be to every persons taste but remember like hitler he was mad, it is a shame we were not given the chance to hang him.
I do not see that the americans had any say in how he was executed if at all.
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The major issue with a judicial execution is that we, the people, have time to ponder it.
My own mind says that, where the guilt is proven beyond any doubt and the crime was great enough then death is appropriate, even merciful, though probably never humane.
I have no desire to see the corpse, nor the application of the rope. But I do support the death of this man, revenge and lynching or not, in the same way that I support the death of the architects of the nazi atrocities, those in the old Yugoslavia, and similar events.
I do not support the death penalty for what might be termed "ordinary" murder.
With regard to your criticism of the US in their handling of this execution, they are unable to handle their own national death row with humanity, so why woudl we expect them to be any different elsewhere?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack wrote:
>(snip)... it will never be to every persons taste but remember like hitler he was mad, it is a shame we were not given the chance to hang him.
>
I'm very disturbed by this, Jack - you're giving the impression that you think it's acceptable to do almost anything to people who society for one reason or another classes as "mad" - ie not conforming to the currently-accepted model of "mentally normal". The effect that such a belief has had on many people - both some here in this place of safety, and in the wider world, is of course horrific, and the ranges of tortures that have been applied to gay people to attempt to "cure" them of the "madness" of homosexuality are well-documented. The beating of those who were thought to be "possessed of devils" in the middle ages, in order to drive the demons out, is another classic example.
If Saddam was severely mentally ill, he was probably not entirely responsible for his own actions, and I see no reason for execution (although I do see that if he had lived to reach a mental state where he could fully realise the effects of his actions, he might have sought suicide as a reasonable escape - his choice).
If he were entirely sane, then the concept of "responsibility" and "blame" have some meaning ... although I personally am not in favour of the death sentence in any circumstances.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Screeve
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Getting started |
Location: England
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 10
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I don't think anybody has suggested he be exiled. But the death penalty is abhorrent. As a civilised nation we dispensed of public executions centuries ago and we dispensed of capital punishment about fifty years ago. Saddam was subjected to what was in effect a public execution. The Iraqi government are not stable enough to provide a rigourous judicial system yet and they certainly cannot provide security for their country. I persoanlly have problems with the entire trial - that is not to say he wasn't guilty. But in the years and decades to come, it will come out that he wasn't given a fair trial. And like the war itself, it will be proved that there was no sound legal basis for doing what was done - even though it may have been right. If we are truely civilised, we need the rule of law behind us, or else the law is meaningless and we will live in anarchy.
Personally I do not believe in the death penalty, no matter what the crime. As civilised peoples we should not condone government sanctioned murder.
Life can be endured or enjoyed
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If he had been incinerated by a missile, would that have been "better" or "worse"?
The US was assuredly out to do just that.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Screeve
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Getting started |
Location: England
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 10
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Now you're going into the legalities of the war. In my opinion the war was unjustified. It was a pre-emptive strike which the UN does not support. If the US wants to continue with this policy they can go into Iran and North Korea, but they wont. They chose an easy target.
However, if he had been killed during hostilities, he would have been a casualty of the war. And in wars there are always casualties. However, war should only ever be the last resort. In this case it may have not been the first, but it certainly wasn't the last resort.
Life can be endured or enjoyed
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Well, I was really only asking the simple question. I have never believed the invasion was lawful.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Screeve
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Getting started |
Location: England
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 10
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When it comes to Iraq, there is never a simple question. GWB has seen to that.
Life can be endured or enjoyed
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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NW wrote:
> jack wrote:
> >(snip)... it will never be to every persons taste but remember like hitler he was mad, it is a shame we were not given the chance to hang him.
> >
>
> I'm very disturbed by this, Jack - you're giving the impression that you think it's acceptable to do almost anything to people who society for one reason or another classes as "mad" - ie not conforming to the currently-accepted model of "mentally normal". The effect that such a belief has had on many people - both some here in this place of safety, and in the wider world, is of course horrific,
and the ranges of tortures that have been applied to gay people to attempt to "cure" them of the "madness" of homosexuality are well-documented.
Please, lets not go there today.....
The beating of those who were thought to be "possessed of devils" in the middle ages, in order to drive the demons out, is another classic example.
>
>
> If Saddam was severely mentally ill, he was probably not entirely responsible for his own actions, and I see no reason for execution (although I do see that if he had lived to reach a mental state where he could fully realise the effects of his actions, he might have sought suicide as a reasonable escape - his choice).
>
> If he were entirely sane, then the concept of "responsibility" and "blame" have some meaning ... although I personally am not in favour of the death sentence in any circumstances.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Personally, I am divided on the death penalty issue....
On the one hand.... I believe that taking a life is wrong....
On the other.... I see in the news every day reports of heinous acts perpetrated on children and I would willingly step up to press the button.
Hipocritical.... perhaps.... but people that mistreat and harm children just pickle my giblets.......
As for Hussein's situation.... It was the Iraqui courts that convicted him and it was their legal system that sentenced him to death....
Now..... When it comes down to the brass tacks of the entire middle eastern attitude toward western society it is our foistering our values and social mores on the Arab community that has been the cause of this strife ever since the discovery of oil in the region.
They have their ways.... and we have ours.... It is OUR responsibility to leave them to their life as they choose it.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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I cannot understand some people; my statement that some one is mad does not mean that they can be healed in a prison hospital.
Perhaps I should have said that they were naturally evil.
And I believe that that man was barley human, he had no respect for anybody but himself.
We must realise that this will happen always happen in country that are ruled by a dictator.
Open your eyes.
life is to enjoy.
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I agree with JFR in one aspect, that the Hussein execution was a judicial "lynching" when using the perspective of the "show" atmosphere and vicious taunting of the condemned that made this a circus of sorts. That disturbed me even the first time I was exposed to the video.
That aside, I am in agreement with the others who state there is a morally valid reason for the death penalty. History is filled with examples where society was bettered by the finality of the death penalty. But I do believe that particular form of punishment should be reserved for persons of that stature.
I have never served on a jury where the death penalty is an option, but do understand that at least in the U.S. the judiciary is bound to instruct the jurors in matters dealing with the betterment of the society when considering that fate. I would hope that that aspect would be the sole indicator in choosing such a final and irrevocable conclusion.
Hugs, Charlie
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jack wrote:
> I cannot understand some people; my statement that some one is mad does not mean that they can be healed in a prison hospital.
>
> Perhaps I should have said that they were naturally evil.
Being "mad" and being evil are not in any way connected - and I don't think this board (where a number of people including me have had to deal with people regarding us as "mad" simply because we've had assistance with mental health issues) is an appropriate place to use the word. Yes, I'm probably over-sensitive on this, much like I am about the casual use of the word "cripple" and "fag".
>
> We must realise that this will happen always happen in country that are ruled by a dictator.
>
> Open your eyes.
Nope - this is what happens when a ruler does not feel secure, rather than in a dictatorship. Perhaps having a country persistently undermined by the US (with minor assistance from the UK) contributes to such a feeling of insecurity? Of course, thanks to the wonderful and illegal invasion, the chances of any government in Iraq feeling secure enough to dispense with detention, interrogation and torture without trial, and summary execution/pseudo-judicial murder are now very slender ... even the so-called "elected government" faction seems to have death squads.
[Updated on: Mon, 01 January 2007 19:38]
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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NW wrote:
>
> >
> > Open your eyes.
>
> Nope - this is what happens when a ruler does not feel secure, rather than in a dictatorship. Perhaps having a country persistently undermined by the US (with minor assistance from the UK) contributes to such a feeling of insecurity? Of course, thanks to the wonderful and illegal invasion, the chances of any government in Iraq feeling secure enough to dispense with detention, interrogation and torture without trial, and summary execution/pseudo-judicial murder are now very slender ... even the so-called "elected government" faction seems to have death squads.
So you agree with him killing his own people do you.
by the way dont be offended by the word fag, move on i do not think that the word is used now, at least not with the people who i like and mix with.
you are entitled to your opinion although i think it is out
of date, no pun intended.
Settle back have a glass of wine this is only dayone of the new year.
happy new year Jack!
life is to enjoy.
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jack wrote:
>
> So you agree with him killing his own people do you.
There is nothing - in any of my posts here or anywhere else - that could by any stretch of the imagination imply that I approve of any form of killing: indeed, I generally get flack for my rather absolutist pacifist position.
I by no means support Saddam, nor Bush, nor Blair, ... nor Pinochet nor Castro, come to that. But I *do* seek to understand what goes wrong, in the interests of trying to work out how we can avoid other places degenerating into the appalling carnage that we are currently witnessing in Iraq.
I have disagreed frequently (and I hope usually fairly politely if heatedly) with a number of people here as to the best way overall to minimise death and destruction, but I think this is the first time anyone has misunderstood me to the extent of thinking I support any kind of killing!
> by the way dont be offended by the word fag, move on i do not think that the word is used now, at least not with the people who i like and mix with.
The point generally is that it's used by people one neither likes nor chooses to mix with - like the kids hanging round making trouble that you were so concerned about a while ago.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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> I by no means support Saddam, nor Bush, nor Blair, ... nor Pinochet nor Castro, come to that. But I *do* seek to understand what goes wrong, in the interests of trying to work out how we can avoid other places degenerating into the appalling carnage that we are currently witnessing in Iraq.
>
>
> I am so pleased it sounded as if you were in some kind of agreement with the sad person.
Look at your previous post you were saying that the Americans & the U.K.
sort of made him into the person he was due to the oil.
Do you remeber when he blew up the oil wells in kuwait.
was this to cause us in the real world big problems.
Should i feel sorry for him,Emmmmmmmmmm dont think so.
still have a good new year. Jack!
>
>
>
> >
> >
life is to enjoy.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is plain enough that the world condemned Hussein's methods in Iraq. It is plain enough that when he was captured he was going to stand trial. It was plain enough that the evidence of mass killings was going to be his end.
That does not mean that a public exhibition of his death was even remotely proper.
To punish a person in that ultimate way is one thing. To make a public exhibition of it is to sink down to his level.
To take these pictures and put them on the internet is as abhorant as the beheadings of some years back.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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so what would you have done to him?
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The part of the world he is in requires proof of death. They are used to lies. Proof of death, however macabre, was required if execution was to be his end.
The thing about this topic is that no-one will agree on it. One is either for or against executing monsters. Those pro executon will not change their views and those anti will not chnage. Thus this has all the hallmarks of a discussion that will cause vitriol to flow. Perhaps it is time to end it?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack wrote:
> so what would you have done to him?
a trial in a country with an established independent government and judiciary - for preference, in Iraq in several years time (in takes a couple of years for murder cases to come to trial in most western countries ... odd how quickly things can get done when there's a political point to be made).
Although I personally am opposed to the death penalty, and would have kept him in gaol (but not on suicide watch - his choice, if he'd chosen to take it), if the death penalty was to be carried out I certainly would not have carried it out in front of a jeering and taunting audience - see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6221751.stm
I think John Simpson is absolutely right when he says "But the most disturbing thing about the new video of Saddam's execution for crimes precisely like this, is that it is all much too reminiscent of what used to happen here.
It is going to be increasingly difficult for the government of Nouri Maliki to convince Sunni Arabs here that Saddam's execution was not merely an act of retaliation. "
That is what is at the heart of my objection to "capital punishment", and even more strongly so in cases where it is associated with degrading treatment. The Martin Luther King quote that's been my sig. here for the past few weeks seems entirely apposite in this case.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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>History is filled with examples where society was bettered by the finality of the death penalty.
I fully agree with JFR, and I wish you could present just a few of those examples, where the obvious need to keep the monsters off the streets couldn't have been equally well taken care of by following the example of the post WW2 Nuremberg Trials, which gave Rudolf Hess a life sentence and locked him up for life in the Spandau prison in Berlin, where he, "the loneliest man in the world", committed suicide in 1987.
Apart from the fundamental discussion about the use of death penalty, there is always the risk that innocent people may be executed, not only in China or Iran. It's beyond my comprehension that a nation which takes pride in calling itself 'civilized' is willing to run that risk.
[Updated on: Tue, 02 January 2007 00:28] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I would do nothing. I didn't need to.
His country, and the people left behind, after his reign of terror was ready to handle this for once and for all.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First of all, the manner of the execution. Even if we accept that, in the Iraqui context, proof of death is required (and personally I see no evidence that this is so) such proof could be demonstrated by releasing the body for burial. That argument offers no defence for the obscene spectacle of what amounted to a public execution, nor does it reflect any credit upon the Western newspapers which chose to carry the obscene illustrations. Most importantly, and - I would argue - entirely predictably, the public execution has increased, rather than decreased, the tension between the Sunni minority and the Shi'ite majority.
Secondly, the question of whether judicial killing is ever justified. Well, I speak from the UK point of view, and there has been no death penalty in the UK for half a century. It seems to me that, in logical terms, (and posters will know that I'm very fond of logic!) this has to be an absolute question; there is no rational basis for a selective approach. It's a moral issue; is it right that the state should have the right to kill? Personally, I don't believe that it has; if cold-blooded, premeditated killing is wrong - as it obviously is - it is wrong in ALL circumstances. But let's look at the problem from a different perspective. Is our objective simple vengeance, or do we seek to make the world a better place? Morally, we HAVE to choose the second alternative - and, if we do, Sailor's post presents an unanswerable case. We CAN keep convicted murderers in close confinement until they die. I appreciate that this, and the following sentences, have a European bias - but, as Sailor says, we did this with Rudolf Hess, and - internally - we did this with 'Moors Murderer' Myra Hindley, and continue to do it with her accomplice Ian Brady.
I cannot see that premeditated killing moves the human race forward in any way. I remember, from my youth, the cases of James Hanratty, the 'A6 murderer', who was hanged but was almost certainly innocent, and the teenage Derek Bentley, who was convicted and hanged on the grounds of his extremely ambiguous shout to his underage companion - 'Let him have it.' Did that mean 'shoot him', or 'give him your gun'? Bentley did not kill anyone, but he was hanged as a accessory to murder. There are, of course, arguments as to how life imprisonment should be interpreted, but that is a separate and complex area. For my part, I cannot see that judicial killing has ever moved civilisation forward, nor can I see that it ever will.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I can certainly understand your point. However, I have serious doubts as to the contribution to society of Hess's lengthy (and costly) incarceration. I oppose the death penalty in most cases because of the the reason you cited (possible innocence) but when faced with overwhelming evidence of guilt and the probability of recidivism the option should not be rejected out of hand (Gacy and Mendez come to mind).
I also agree with timmy in that much acrimony could come from this discussion because of the diametric opposition of heart (mercy) and mind (practicality).
Hugs, Charlie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... is still a subjective concept.
If you haven't done so already, can I recommend that you read John Grisham's factual report entitled 'The Innocent Man'?
My point is simply that judicial killing is unacceptable in civilised society. There can be no 'sliding scale'; it is a fundamentally moral concept. To a Christian - which I am not - there is the added complexity of belief in redemption. Regardless of the sin, true contrition affords forgiveness. A principle which is apparently beyond the intellectual capabilities of the Governor of California.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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