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Please excuse mistakes, this is the first time I've ever posted anywhere.
Studies have shown that sexual orientation is formed by the age of three if not already formed in the womb. This means that being gay is not a choice but one of birth. No one, in their right mind, would willingly choose to be hated, physically/mentally/emotionally/psychologically rejected in a life time.
There is a God and HE speaks of love. We are all created by HIM and would HE create anyone (sexual orientation way before capable of mentally able to choose)purposely to a live of pain/heartbreak/hurt? God is love and HE doesn't change HIS nature. It's man that makes the hatred. I cannot explain the difference between what I've just said about sexual orientation being formed so early in life and what the Bible says. But I do know that the Lord is love. My reading some of the best stories of love, kindness, caring, family has just solidified my belief. "God didn't make no junk!"
Tad Durham
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think that came right from the heart. You're right. No-one would choose to be hated, and, assuming there is a god, he is unlikely to make mistakes.
So we have a gift, if you like, from when we were conceived.
Nice to see you here, Tad
[Updated on: Wed, 24 January 2007 21:49]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi Tad,
Welcome to the board.
You said,
>Studies have shown that sexual orientation is formed by the age of three if not already formed in the womb.
I'm interested by the 'by the age of three' thing -- which studies, and how can they possibly tell? Most children are asexual, certainly at that age. Studies that assume that 'gay' or 'effeminate' behaviour in small children necessarily leads to homosexuality are highly flawed, because it does not.
In my own case, in all respects I was completely 'normal' (read: apparently straight) until I was about 11 or 12. Before then, I cannot imagine any way (up to and including a brain biopsy) that anyone could have told what my sexual orientation was going to be.
I can't comment about the rest of your post, I'm afraid, because I'm an atheist. My own opinion is that if there is a God, mankind has no way of knowing what he is like, and certainly has no right to preach hate in his name.
David
[Updated on: Wed, 24 January 2007 23:13] |
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David,
Thanks for sending me your reply. Of course you know, I have to disagree with you.
I knew when I was seven that I was gay. I didn't fully accept it at that time but I knew what I felt around other guys. I tried, honestly tried, to get out of gay life.
I married thinking that's all I needed to be free and "normal"(?). My wife went to be with the mail man. Really! I knew my feelings hadn't changed. I had a breakdown and was in the hospital for 10 weeks. The psychologist told me I was who I was and that I had to accept myself or I was going to have problems all my life.
The second time I got married was because I had cancer and since everyone in my family who had cancer had died of it, I thought I bought the "farm".
My marriage was a plan and the woman I married knew all about me and knew I married her was to adopt her three sons so I would have a family after I had passed away. But it didn't work out that way. She died nine months after we got married by a justice of the peace on my lunch time. All legal. But she ended up being full of cancer (she smoked 4 packs of cigarets a day) and I had three sons. I moved back home and my Mom helped me raise my boys. I adopted them. They knew I was gay. But my Mom was so upset about my being gay (she was a born again Christian)and because she was such a loving, kind, Mom who had adopted me at six months, I felt that as much as I loved her I owed her. I gave up any hope of meeting someone and lived with her for the next 26 years taking care of her and for the last four years of her life, full time. She passed away five years ago next February: 2/22/2002 at the age of 95.
Since then I've been alone. I'm still gay but as you know or will some day, most of our community (not all)are attracted together by looks first. Old men are out of the picture (unless you have money). So I know my feelings and emotions are not of "choice" but of birth. I wish I knew when I was in high school what I know now. Maybe I could have been one of the lucky ones and found a "life partner".
You've heard the saying, "payback is a bitch". Well, I want to tell you, lonliness is an even more of a bitch-a living hell. I don't say that to feel sad for myself, only just a fact. It leads to no purpose, no one to come home to, no one in your life.
Thank God, I have some on line friends who bless me with friendship and emails and beautiful, loving, kind, caring stories to fill in the emptyness of the life I didn't have the opportunity to experience myself. I've learned a lot from these stories about experience, but more importantly about really loving someone. I am so blessed and grateful for these wonderful authors/friends who have come into my life.
David, I know you don't believe. But when you find out the Truth it's going to be too late. I wish you every blessing and happiness in your life and hope you have a "lifetime partner" to help you over the sometimes rock roads of life. Bless you, David.
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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Thank you, Timmy. Bless you. So nice to hear from you. Hope you have a good week.
Tad
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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Sorry, David, I didn't answer your questions about the studies.
I can't give you the name of the studies or the doctors doing the studies. Neither can I remember all the information. But: it did involve children as young as three being studied with brothers: one child would play with "boy toys" trucks, building things, soldiers, etc. and the other one played with dolls, girly things and following his growing up was indeed gay; twins living in the same home, treated the same way, yet one twin was gay and the other was not; twins living in separate homes brought up by different parents: so many characteristics alike but either one or both grew up gay. Story after story of gay people telling that they knew when they were very young that they were "different" until they realized they were gay.
I can't explain the reason nor could they for why this happened. I didn't believe in the "born this way" either until I read the studies, read the readings of so many and then knowing I too knew so young.
Just have to let HIM decide on the final judgement. I do know HE's perfect and doesn't ever make mistakes. Some day I'll ask HIM why?
Bless you, David
Tad
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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Tad,
>I knew when I was seven that I was gay. I didn't fully accept it at that time but I knew what I felt around other guys. I tried, honestly tried, to get out of gay life.
Okay, that's fine -- I know that some (even many) people know they are gay earlier than puberty. But how many children know they are gay at three? I'm still interested in whatever study may have established that it's possible to tell before that age. Do you have a particular article or citation in mind?
Thank you for your life story. It sounds like you have had a lot of difficulty with your sexuality. I don't think anyone here has had a smooth ride. I have barely had a chance to begin the process of looking for a relationship, and I'm 22.
>David, I know you don't believe. But when you find out the Truth it's going to be too late.
I don't understand. Why too late?
I, a scientific atheist, accept the possibility, which I have to say I regard as almost infinitesimally small, that there is a God. If God exists and he is anything like as good and loving as you say he is, then I would hope that he will appreciate my rational atheism -- which is based around my system of morals, which are themselves justified according to my conscience, logic, and the anticipated effect on others -- far more than the blind, uncomprehending dogma which so many of his followers exhibit. If he will not then he is not worth knowing. If he exists but is entirely different then both you and I are wrong.
Tad, you may need to be a bit careful what you say about God, as (with a couple of notable exceptions) most people here are atheists or agnostics. Evangelism has caused problems in the past. I am sure you will be discreet.
Best wishes,
David
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Well, as you can't give the name of the study it's difficult to follow up. However, those sorts of studies are controversial, as they propagate stereotypes. There *may* be a link between 'effeminacy' in toddlers and adult homosexuality, but it's not an absolute one: there are many people who are not at all effeminate who turn out to be gay, and plenty of camp children (and adults) who are actually as straight as a die.
I played with the same toys as my brother and, as far as I know, everyone else. I certainly had no liking for dolls or girly things. Women are still something of a closed book to me, actually.
>twins living in the same home, treated the same way, yet one twin was gay and the other was not; twins living in separate homes brought up by different parents: so many characteristics alike but either one or both grew up gay.
There are statistical associations between twins, but identical twins are not always of the same sexuality (only about half the time). These studies are interesting but not conclusive.
Random link:
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html
I'll admit I really don't know much about this subject. I don't take anything on hearsay, which is why I asked if you knew which study you were talking about.
I'd appreciate it if someone else here who knows more about this could comment/correct as applicable, please?
>Story after story of gay people telling that they knew when they were very young that they were "different" until they realized they were gay.
Everyone thinks he is different.  I did, but I don't think that's because I was gay. It is more likely because of the way I see the world (which is apparently slightly autistic).
David
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David,
I apologize to you. I meant no offence talking about God. I was just lovingly conserned about a new friend. Be assured, I will not mention it again on site. Sorry to have offended you.
Love,
Tad
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The study style you mention seems to have been a TV documentary favourite a few years back. But it appears to have been somewhat selective. There are many boys who play with dolls. Action Man is a doll. And some of these grow up gay and others not.
There are many boys who loathe dolls. Some of these grow up gay and others not.
David mentions stereotypes and he's right. Not every cabin steward is gay and not every airline pilot is straight. Here we have a group of people who are gay, yes. Some are gay and married to women. We have macho occupations. One has been a firefighter, for example. We have less macho occupations. I doubt we have a single flaming queen hairdresser, and I somehow suspect most of us did not play with dolls.
The message? Beware the study which compartmentalises you into a place you feel you have to be in order to conform.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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First of all - a warm welcome. I hope you will enjoy your stay here and contribute to our discussions, our joking and even to our arguments  .
I think that both you and David are right. Maybe you would both agree with the following: "science has not yet concluded whether homosexuality is genetic or acquired before the end of infancy." (David, surely there is a difference between the acquisition of homosexuality - if it is acquired - and its first manifestations in life.)
As far as theological stances are concerned: just as David is entitled to his opinion so are you. I think that what would be considered here 'in bad taste' or 'ill-mannered' would be to overly parade those views but to express them soberly when relevant to the discussion.
Again, a warm welcome.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Thank you, JFR, for your welcome. It's nice to "meet" you and I appreciate your posting. I look forward to getting to know you all over time. Bless you. Hope you have a wonderful week and weekend.
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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Timmy,
Thank you for your info. Sorry if I seem locked into a sterotype. Have a wonderful day.
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Locked in? Heck no. Only apologise when you have something to apologise for
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Tolford A. Durham wrote:
> Please excuse mistakes, this is the first time I've ever posted anywhere.
> Studies have shown that sexual orientation is formed by the age of three if not already formed in the womb. This means that being gay is not a choice but one of birth. No one, in their right mind, would willingly choose to be hated, physically/mentally/emotionally/psychologically rejected in a life time.
> There is a God and HE speaks of love. We are all created by HIM and would HE create anyone (sexual orientation way before capable of mentally able to choose)purposely to a live of pain/heartbreak/hurt? God is love and HE doesn't change HIS nature. It's man that makes the hatred. I cannot explain the difference between what I've just said about sexual orientation being formed so early in life and what the Bible says. But I do know that the Lord is love. My reading some of the best stories of love, kindness, caring, family has just solidified my belief. "God didn't make no junk!"
> Tad Durham
I am not sure about the HIM thing and I especially do NOT allow anyone dead or alive to LORD over me..... but thats neither here nor there.......
Anyhow, it is nice to meet you........
BTW.... I used to take a week or two at Searsport in the Summer....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> The study style you mention seems to have been a TV documentary favourite a few years back. But it appears to have been somewhat selective. There are many boys who play with dolls. Action Man is a doll. And some of these grow up gay and others not.
>
> There are many boys who loathe dolls. Some of these grow up gay and others not.
>
> David mentions stereotypes and he's right. Not every cabin steward is gay and not every airline pilot is straight. Here we have a group of people who are gay, yes. Some are gay and married to women. We have macho occupations. One has been a firefighter, for example. We have less macho occupations. I doubt we have a single flaming queen hairdresser, and I somehow suspect most of us did not play with dolls.
Perhaps not hairdressing.... But it's been said I have a flair for decorating.... and Kevy just adores a good solid shopping spree.
>
> The message? Beware the study which compartmentalises you into a place you feel you have to be in order to conform.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Good morning, Marc, nice to "meet you". Searsport is only 14 miles away from where I live. Maybe someday you will come back again and we'll have a chance to meet. In the meantime, have a nice day and weekend. Bless you.
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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JFR said,
>(David, surely there is a difference between the acquisition of homosexuality - if it is acquired - and its first manifestations in life.)
Of course there are, JFR. I honestly have no idea whether homosexuality has a genetic or an environmental basis, or both. If it is the first, then it would be latent at all ages. If the second, it could be affected by nurture in the first couple of years. If both, well -- a bit of both.
I only suspect that, given today's knowledge of science, it's impossible to tell with reliability at an early age. I don't think behavioural research is necessarily rigorous enough. (How do we know, for instance, that an effeminate child does not in many cases 'become' gay, not because he would otherwise have done, but because his very effeminacy, coupled with social cues, propels him in that direction? In other words, it might be a cause, not an effect.) If homosexuality has a strong genetic basis -- maybe even if it has an environmental one, if there are demonstrable physiological changes associated with homosexuality -- it may be possible to tell one day, even at the age of three. I, however, hope not: people have a right to privacy in their attractions. In many cases it would destroy any possibility the child might have had for a happy childhood.
I suppose I am also a little touchy at the suggestion that for me to be gay now I must have been effeminate as a child, which was the only way that Tad mentioned for detecting potential homosexuality. I was no more effeminate than any of my straight friends. Those people for whom a stereotype holds true (I'm generalising here; I'm not talking about anyone in particular) often make the assumption that, despite a sample size of one, it must be right, and therefore that everyone else felt the same way they did: not true, of course. Everyone is different.
David
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Tad, you didn't offend me. I only feel on unsure footing because I have a habit of countering (in a non-confrontational manner, or at least it's supposed to be!) most things on this board I don't agree with. But it's obviously rude to disagree with someone purely on the basis of their religion.
I have no problem with you having a personal faith. The problem only rises when you say things like, "But when you find out the Truth it's going to be too late" (bringing me into it). There is not really any polite logical comeback because I can't counter this statement without saying you're wrong about your faith, and yet, as an atheist, I am convinced that there is no truth to find out.
Anyway, let's move on!
Best wishes,
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Whever this leads, never, ever, confuse effeminacy with homosexuality
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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You replied to me, Timmy. Were you responding to my comment? I would hope that it was plain that one does not imply the other. I am not sure, so I will clarify my answer in case of misunderstanding.
I know I wrote the following, which could be seen to be slightly ambiguous:
>How do we know, for instance, that an effeminate child does not in many cases 'become' gay, not because he would otherwise have done, but because his very effeminacy, coupled with social cues, propels him in that direction? In other words, it might be a cause, not an effect.
This is taking the case of a child who is apparently effeminate and subsequently turns out to be gay, which does happen (and which could be seen as 'proving' something in the eyes of less rigorous researchers). I am not implying either that that child will inevitably be gay, nor that a 'masculine' or 'neutral' child will turn out straight. I believe, however, that there is correlation even if not well-understood causation between the two traits. Whether effeminacy is due to environmental or biological factors, or even deliberate behaviour, I do not know, and I see no particular reason to find out. Everyone has a right to behave in a manner which makes him feel comfortable.
I wonder if there is a better word than 'effeminate', as it's a rather pejorative word? I hope it is clear that I am not using it in that sense. 'Camp' is not quite the same thing.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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nancyboy?
That is another word.......
LOL
At least that is what Mr. Federson called Ricky and myself when we rented a flat from him....
Oh.... and he also called us "poofs"........
But it was all in good fun and we treasured the time we spent in his home and with his family..... especially over the holidays.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And never confuse a lady plumber with lesbianism.......
yeah right........
ROFLMAO........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It had to go somewhere. Anywhere would have done
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Okay. By convention if you reply to someone's post it looks like you're responding to them in particular. No harm done. David
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DrBurkstrom
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Getting started |
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: January 2007
Messages: 3
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I've read a few threads on here before but never posted, I thought I'd chime in with this because it seems relevant. I have several straight male friends who behave in a very 'camp' manner (one of them in particular makes Graham Norton look like Clint Eastwood).
One in particular interests us the most in this case, happily married with two children, his 9 (I think) year-old son would be described by many as an 'effeminate' child; shying away from 'traditionally boyish' activities and far more comfortable around girls than his peers. Yet it's obviously impossible to tell yet whether or not the child will be gay (although I know his father will be loving and supportive regardless).
In retrospect this post is actually rather irrelevant except as another of the aforementioned "sample of one" case studies, and even then one which will take years to show a result! Still, I've spent a while writing it so you can have it, and I'll keep you posted!
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Hi Tad,
I am also late in life and alone mostly. I do have some online friends and there have been at least 7 of them whom I have met in person. Not in any way as a sexual thing, but as real friends. One is in California, one in Illinois, 2 are in Mississippi, and 2 are in Germany. There are a couple of others and also I am now renting to a couple of nice guys who are a couple.
I am not out of the closet to my family or friends except for a few and it is the way I would prefer it right for the time being. I have lived with several guys in the past and it was not of a sexual nature (they were straight) and I do not want anyone questioning them about those time they lived here.
I dont think you have to be lonely and you dont have to seek out guys for one-night stands either. I plan to visit as many of my on line friends as I can and stay for a bit with each of them with their approval of course. I dont want to overstay a visit. I am not done traveling and now have some good reasons to visit England and the environs to hopefully meet up with some of the guys I have met here. It keeps me occupied to be on line and deal with day to day things. I help some friends of mine and still do some little electrical jobs so I am busy.
If you ever get to Mpls, Mn you can contact me and we can sit and have a beer together. Life is precious because of the simple things we do and not for all the profound things we had hoped to accomplish. Well, I sure as hell hope not or I am one hell of a failure for sure. Keep your sense of humor and dont be afraid to meet people; for every one of them who turn out to be a real jerk, you will meet 10 you will regret not knowing all your life.
Ken
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Yeah and I am gay and couldn't do the interior decorating for a dog house. I also had NO gaydar or I could have been a lot happier I think. I have no idea what clothes go together and only get by because I tend to remember what my mother told me went together long ago.
Ken
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I agree David. I may disagree about the root cause (born gay or environment) but I dont think you can conclude much from observation of little kids. I dont think I showed any kind of effemite behavior and I still dont except for the fact I am so sentimental about things.
I can say though that being a boy or girl tends to be "wired in" as it was so well demonstrated in the case of the "Boy Who Was Raised As A Girl" which is a true story and shows what a tragic mistake it can be to try to change someone's sexual identity or orientation. This is well documented and refutes a lot of the "proof" that many studies had referenced which might still be influencing those tv documentaries which were spoken of earlier. The doctor who was instrumental in having the one twin boy raised as a girl, wrote up the case history as proof of his theory and was later soundly refuted; but since this doctor was so emminant in his profession, this lingers on.
The book I mentioned above: "As Nature Made Him - the boy who was raised as a girl" by John Colapinto.....www.harperperennial.com
Ken
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Hi, Tad, I'm glad to see you here!
The discussion about how and why we are gay is an interesting one, academically speaking, but sometimes it's like another attempt to find an excuse why we are gay, and that unless someone finds an acceptable scientific explanation to why some of us are gay and others not, we can't really expect other people to accept us for who we are.
Today, 27 January, is Holocaust Memorial Day. History tell us that leaders of authoritarian regimes and power structures aren't really interested in science. They easily invent their own 'science' on demand, extracting from it the 'facts' they need to justify the prosecution of people who don't adhere to their doctrines. When Jews, Gypsies, disabled and homosexuals of the Third Reich were killed, it wasn't because of some sort of scientific evidence. Being a Jew, or gay, was enough in itself.
The key to the question lies in fundamental ethical principles and human values. For me as a Christian believer it is also a theological question. I believe that God made me who I am, and it's an absurd idea that God would want to reject me for the same reason.
Like you, I've been married, and my kids now have their own families. It took me almost a lifetime to accept myself for who I am, but at last I did, and when I came out to my kids they immediately accepted me. I am also fortunate enough to have old friends who fully accept 'the new me'. I work with young people every day, so I'm neither alone nor lonely, but I wish I had someone to love and care for.
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Re: Gay orientation 
