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How thou art changed!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3358137,00.html
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I am the son of an immigrant. My father came here to integrate, and he integrated.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No Message Body
[Updated on: Mon, 29 January 2007 20:06] |
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Bottom, thou art translated.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Of course, I don't know how old you are, JFR, but I was simply a bit surprised that the attitudes of British Muslims had changed so radically and significantly since you were here as to warrant such an exclamation on the state of the nation. Only 1 in 40 people in the UK is a Muslim, and attitudes are not reflected by the rest of the population, which is by and large secular or apathetic.
That is not to say that the results of the study are not true, nor that they are not serious. I found the Policy Exchange's published document, which might be of use to you:
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/libimages/246.pdf
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The challenge faced my people of my generation is totally different from the UK facing you. How to say this without appearing to be racist is a challenge, because the following is not intended to be in any way biased. It is simply a matter of history.
In 1952, when I was born, though I recall littel of it, there were no black, very few Indian, and equally few Chinotype faces to be seen. When I was 6 and hospitalised I saw my first black face. Unbelievably I was told by my mother that "black ladies are used as night nurses", and I suspect that may have been because they were willing to accept lower pay, though I thought it was to do with the lack of daylight!
At 7 or so my father, himself an immigrant, took us to a Chinese restaurant near the place he worked, in central London. These were rarities.
I had also met my first black kid at school, the only black kid. He was from Nigeria, boarded at school because his father was some high ranking official in Nigeria and was a vicious little shit. He broke my nose and I never quite forgave Nigeria for that!
There were two Indian brothers at the school, too. Three hundred or so boys and 1% "other races". There were no Chinotypes.
By the time I was 11 a Chinese restaurant had opened nearby and black immigration was in full swing courtesy of London Transport. Enoch Powell made a remarkably dull speech predicting race riots, was branded a racist and proved to be able to predict the future in Brixton some years later with startling accuracy.
There were a few more Indian restaurants (note how food is a milestone in so many ways), though mostly of very moderate quality, as immigration from mainly what may still have been East and West pakistan started, but the major swathe of "Indians" were the Ugandan Asians who were expelled form Uganda by Idi Amin.
Hong King Chinese seemed also to arrive around this time, but immigrants of different colours to the "English norm" were still a curiosity.
At university, in my first jobs, there were very few "other races". I only saw an increasing number of Asians of all types from about 1986 onwards in high tech business where I worked. There were very few black faces. religion was unimportant even then, 20 years ago or more. Islam was seen as a peaceful religion, but we had no idea about what it was, nor about the Hindus Buddhits, Sikhs, etc. We were, of course, ludicrously anti-semitic as a nation, especially in schools. I suspect it is a tradition rather than a real phenomenon.
So, in 1986, "my" nation was sill predominately white faced. But thing schange. a tipping point is reached and it suddenly seems to be black, or Indian, or Islamic, or Asian. My own town is a case in point. 3 years ago we had no black faces. Today we have a sudden and huge number.
Deej and my son have grown up in this environment and see nothing unusual in it. They are right, because it is not unusual. It is normal. I grew up in a white post imperialist nation and my ingrained attitudes are different. I have had to learn to accept what appear to me to be sudden and huge chnages, but whihc are, in reality, normal. I find it perplexing to walk through Slough where I am a racial minority. I feel threatened walking through Brixton today, but walked there happily in 1976. To be fair I feel threatened by white kids in hoodies, too.
But it has changed. A snapshot of the same place in 1950 and again today will show huge racial changes. And that is a tough thing to grow through.
At the same time, as the Islamic population has grown it has become more confident in its mode of dress and its religious expfression. It is wholly entitled to both, though I have a personal bias against the subjugatgion of women by head to toe clothing.
What is not acceptable to me is the idea of Islam wanting its own laws in the land and separation from the rest of the population. The current generation's parents or grandparents left their nations of origin to escape all sorts of things. let the current dissatisfied generation find a nation with Sharia Law and let them emmigrate and go there. Or let them integrate here, properly.
My father spoke accent with a trace of English, but he came here penniless, integrated, found a "job" of sorts, and made his way as an Englishman (more English thsan the English in so many ways). He and his fellow immigrants did not press for "Austrian law", etc. They just got on with life.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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If you're interested in the actual statistics, they are on pages 46 and 47.
I have to confess to being quite shocked.
On page 47, 71% of 16-24 year-olds agree "that homosexuality is wrong and should be illegal".
57% believe that a Muslim woman should not be able to consent to marriage.
56% believe that a Muslim woman should not be allowed to marry a non-Muslim.
I do not know where these backward attitudes are coming from, especially considering the progress that has been made in the UK as a whole in recent years, and that they are apparently not learning it (entirely) from their elders.
Are 16-24 year-olds in general just terminally stupid?
David
[Updated on: Tue, 30 January 2007 11:02] |
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David,
I left England nearly 40 years ago. But believe me, the experiences of the first 20 or so years of your life are what make you what you are. So, even 40 years on, living in a completely different society, I still think and behave (I hope) like an Englishman. But, I think and behave like an Englishman that once was.
In another post in this thread Timmy mentioned Brixton. In the 1960's I worked for two or three years in Brixton, and my 'beat' also included Streatham, Dulwich, Tulse Hill etc. Brixton prison was also part of my 'beat'.
I cannot remember noticing any black and coloured people in the area at all. I am sure that there must have been; there were just not enough to be noticed, as it were.
I think it is a wonderful thing to live in a multi-racial society. But there must be a 'general' culture that binds everyone together. When significant sub-groups start opting out of the general culture a great danger is created which could rip the nation apart.
I am terribly proud and grateful that I was born and educated in Britain. I went to an ordinary state 'Grammar' school. In all the 7 years I was at that school there was not one boy or girl who was black or coloured, and the Jews in the school (a very small percentage) were the only non-Christians. So, that is inevitably the England that I remember.
My grandparents arrived in England from Poland more than 100 years ago. They were staunch Jews and brought up their children (my parents, who were born in England) to be staunch Jews. But Judaism was their religion and their 'home' culture. As English citizens they never dreamed of expecting the British government to let Jews live their secular lives under Jewish law: they respected and obeyed the law of their adopted (and adopting) country.
I do not believe in religious integration. But I do believe that social integrations is imperative. I now live in a country where the all-pervading culture is Jewish. But there is a sizeable minority of Arab citizens (about 20%) - Moslems, Druze and Christians. Even though my country is at an unending war with its Moslem neighbours I am terribly proud that a few days ago an Israeli Moslem Arab became a cabinet minister, and I wish him every success. (I am not sure that Britain would have accepted a resident of German or Italian extraction to be a cabinet minister in the 30's and 40's.)
Forgive my rambling.
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Hi JFR,
The England you mention still exists, particularly in the public school system (note for non-British people: that means the private school system).
At my prep school and public school (1992-2002) most people were of English (or if not English, Anglicised European) origin. Doubtless a lot of them had parents or grandparents from other countries, but this was rarely evident. Then there were a number of people of Asian or half-Asian extraction (especially from Hong Kong, Japan, China, Korea), but even if they lived abroad they had strong ties to the UK in one way or another. There were very few black people, even on scholarships: this was for reasons, I presume, of culture and disadvantageous pecuniary circumstances rather than prejudice. Religion was even less obvious; both my schools were C of E and most people were either thoroughly secular or Christian. There was a minority of people from other religions/denominations/religious backgrounds, especially Roman Catholicism and Judaism. I was not really aware of them; some people chose to be more obviously religious than others, but even then this did not cause problems as no-one allowed his religion to taint his dealings with others.
Since leaving school I've had to reorient myself in some ways: the ethnic mix of the general population (and especially London) is different. Even so, despite working with at least a couple of hundred people at one point or another (two universities, a year-and-a-half office job, various film industry positions) I have come across no visible manifestations of problematic multiculturalism. By that I do not mean that there were no people from other cultures or religions; I mean that culture was irrelevant and people just got on and did their jobs.
I suspect I have had a very closeted existence so far. I honestly don't feel I am equipped to comment on multiculturalism per se, for I have never experienced adverse effects from it at first hand. Most of the information one finds about it is biased in one direction or another. While I am extremely disturbed by the implication that many Muslims have prejudiced and outdated opinions, I don't have enough experience to know what to do about it.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 30 January 2007 14:14] |
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clearly David, your uni experience is different from mine
allow me to post something
Among the hustle and bustle of campus life, a handful of doves glide through the university, rarely noticed. However, their marks are distinct: long flowing garments, perfumed in honour and sanctity, and a thin silk scarf shielding them from the unwanted looks of strangers. While others rush around franticly, they move with tranquility and ease. They are our sisters, the muslim women of Keele.
Suddenly however, the very shield that protects them from the fame so many women crave has been plunged into the brightest limelight. Seemingly everyone from Jack Straw to Jack Sparrow is willing to place his 2 penny's worth into the veil debate. So, seeing as every other Tom, Dick, and Harry has expressed their opinion, let me explain to you the only opinion these girls will listen to. No, not their crazed belt-waving fathers, but the view of their religion, their way of life, Islam.
Unlike women of western, liberal, democratic society, Muslim women are not free. However hard this is to hear, it is true. Muslims are not free to say what we wish or act how we feel and Muslim women are not free to wear what they wish. They are chained and shackled by the beautiful chains of divine law. Muslim women do not believe in freedom, they believe in submission, having chosen to submit their life to the will of their Lord.
For over a month we have heard how the Hijab (otherwise known as the veil or the Burqa) has nothing to do with Islam. It is claimed that it is a cultural practice and not a religious one. But what is the reality? Is this clothing that we see prevalent throughout Muslim society actually prescribed by Islam?
The answer is yes, the Hijab or veil is obligatory for every Muslim woman who has reached the age of puberty. There is much evidence for this fact, seen for example in the following extract:
"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty, and not to display their adornment except that which appears ordinary thereof, and to draw veils over their necks and bosoms.." The Qu'ran - Surah An-Noor 24:31
The benefits of wearing the veil are many. The clearest being the natural protection it provides the wearer, for by wearing this covering a woman is able to shield herself from the rampant desires of men. She does not have to reveal her body in order to gain respect. If a man desires her, it has to be for her intellect and her religion. The hijab gives him no other choice. In the times we live in, where rape and molestation are risng faster than the tide, and where women are being encouraged to sacrifice all features of their natural femininity, why is it that the Hijab is not celebrated as a tool of liberation for women and as a thriving aspect of a multiculturakl society?
Signed... A Muslim Brother
The above article was published in the student newspaper "Concourse" on the 20th November 2006. it was submitted by Keele Islamic Society, possibly the second most insular society on campus (after the East Asian Society). it raised a number oof eyebrows and a number of responses for the next edition...
my point is, this is the problem with multi-culturalism. certain groups hide behind their isolationism and call attempts to draw them out as an offence against a multi-cultural society. prejudiced and outdated opinions among muslims? hmmm... i wonder...
i know 3 muslim women who are in most of my law classes.
1, wears long dresses and headscarf. one wears jeans and jackets and a head scarf, the third wears totally western clothing.
another muslim girl i was in halls with in my first year only ever appeared "muslim" when her family were around. her cousin made frequent visits to keep an eye on her. Most times, apart from not drinking you'd never tell she was a muslim.
I've never dared ask any of them if they share the view of their "muslim brother" but oh yes... there's problems here.
Keele is a very diverse uni, we have a load of students from east asia, who mostly stay in groups with each other and almost never intergrate. But annoying as this is, its partly excused by them being foreigners, not always having perfect english. But the 90% of the muslim students are british... yet they are the second most isolated group on the campus. sure there's a handful of them who do... but i'm thinking of societies, of uni politics, or sports clubs, and i can think of only 1 muslim, the environmental officer, who as it happens, is a woman and doesn't wear the veil. there's no muslims, men or women in any of the biggest societies, in any of the sports teams... no where.
And people wonder why Keele also has the biggest BNP presense of any british uni...
i disagree with the BNP and everything they stand for, but i have to admit, sometimes, they do have a point
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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Royal Holloway is a very middle-class and (two thirds) female university, based in Surrey, in the heart of the predominantly white, business class commuter belt. I was brought up in this area, and I was sent to a series of white, middle-class schools. Although through these I do know people from ethnic and religious minorities, they are in virtually all cases very Anglicised and secularised. I can't say I know anyone who is obviously a member of any religion (who would announce it or make it plain to other people outside the relevant context), and that includes Christianity.
This has the result of not making me feel challenged or threatened by religion in my daily life. It also prevents me from finding out from real people how religion can justify practice -- especially the sort of practice (female subjugation, intolerance) that I do not understand. The third party sources available to me are almost invariably biased one way or another.
If I make any criticism of Muslim culture I can be accused, in most cases correctly, of not having any idea what I'm talking about. It is difficult to know what to say, for I feel that people are entitled to privacy in their beliefs. But I also feel that people with bigoted views should be enlightened in some way. I will readily admit I don't know what the solution is, and I hope that other people (not the BNP) have a better idea than I do.
David
[Updated on: Wed, 31 January 2007 02:59] |
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