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Now this may come out of the blue for most of you, hay it even came out of the blue for me but I really am thinking about this one.
Now I have not long been out, maybe 18months, and I love it. To just be me and not have to hide anything about who I am is inspiring.
I have met some one very special, as you may now know from my last post, and the question has been asked. Not will you marry me, but how we felt about the subject, and it brought a lot of feelings about and I was quite happy to deal with them ( for a change ).
Now in a personal capacity I have never been a very big supporter of gay marriage. This may stem from the fact that all the marriages that I have seen, and been there for seem to go very pear shaped at a speed second to non.And if a socially acceptable heterosexual marriage can go so wrong, how will gay marriage work, for me that is? I have no doubt in my mind that these people/unions where not meant to be, and thus the separation, divorce or attempts of separation.
As I have asked myself more and more questions about this topic of "MARRIAGE" , not just homosexual but heterosexual too, I seem to be easing into the idea. However, my biggest concern is why do things seem to change so drastically when one says they do:-??? I have always just been happy with been together, and if you love someone then whether you get married to them or not really holds no sway on the emotional, physical or intellectual attractions that you have with that person.
Now if you do not know I live in South Africa, and I have not followed the news much when it came to gay marriage, and was just wondering if any of you knew where I could get some more info.
Now please do not get me wrong, for those of you who have great marriages I begrudge you nothing, this comes from the heart when I say I'm happy for the both of you. I just want to know how do you make it work so well. I know that communication is one of many key factors, and yes you may have seen this one coming, but I am stuck in the middle of another failing marriage and want to help as much as I can. Or would it be better to just not get involved.
I really wish my thought process was a lot clearer, this all came out a bit back to front again, but hay if you got any questions I will be more than happy to answer the best that I can.
Many Thanks.
ME ;-D
To hate is instant, to love takes time, but a broken heart is ones own worst enemy forever.
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I'm really not a supporter of marriage, I think individual contracts are better. The rights of marriage should be extended to all couples that want them, though, gay or straight, married or de facto. Hospital visitation rights, next-of-kin, all those sorts of things should be accessable by any couple that wants them. Marriage itself is really something I could care less about. And a traditional wedding contains all kinds of symbolism that I could care less for. So if I were ever to "marry" it'd include a contract of my own chosing with a non-traditional ceremony. I don't know why governments feel a need to legislate for marriage at all. Division of assets on divorce, etc should be something that couples decide on themselves.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Don't waste your freaking time.....
In the end, either you or he will find someone better, move on and the other will be left flat on his ass.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I hate to say it Marc but do you get out of the wrong side of the bed every morning. I have only posted here 3 times and every time you have come back to me you sound like the love of your life has just left you with a cold pie and a wet bed. Why are you so down?
I never said that we are going to get married right away but I like the idea. So what you are trying to say is I should sit on my ass for the rest of my life and let love pass me by cause I " should not waits my freaking time "
Well I hate to break it to you like this but I am not going to do that. Yes I have been burnt and hurt and beaten, but I will never give up hope that I may someday find my soul mate. And just to let you know that I think I have already. What is it that they say " It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all "
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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Well, I believe that South Africa was the first country in Africa to legalise gay marriages (about three months ago, I think), so I'm delighted that you have the opportunity, should you and your partner decide to go for it.
I've never married, so take my thoughts with some caution, but:
You said "As I have asked myself more and more questions about this topic of "MARRIAGE" , not just homosexual but heterosexual too, I seem to be easing into the idea. However, my biggest concern is why do things seem to change so drastically when one says they do " I think that the legal recognition that you are starting a new family unit, and that that new unit will take priority over the family unit of parents, brothers, sisters that you were born into, is a really profound life change for many people (though not for everyone). I see marriage as primarily a social and public thing, and to do with recognition by other people and the law ... whereas commitment or affirmation ceremonies are essentially private and personal.
Like any relationship, marriages can go wrong - sometimes people just grow apart (several of my straight friends now in their forties and fifties are now divorced). Sometimes, people marry for inadequate reasons (my father has just ended his sixth or seventh marriage - I'm not sure if he actually married #4 - and his real reasons for marriage have always been to do with being seen as a "respectable churchgoer" rather than any real commitment to his partner-of-the-day). And many very long-term gay relationships have lasted even without the social benefits of a legal partnership. But on the whole, I think that the support that a marriage or civil partnership gets from being legally recognised must be helpful.
On a constructive note, I think that an "engagement" period is often useful, both for the partners and their friends and relatives, to work through some of the changes in relationships that an LTR inevitably brings.
"Now if you do not know I live in South Africa, and I have not followed the news much when it came to gay marriage, and was just wondering if any of you knew where I could get some more info."
This link may be helpful: http://www.durban.gov.za/eThekwini/Community/Civil_Union.pdf - there are a bunch of contacts at the end of it who I am sure will be able to give you more up-to-date information.
Best wishes, whatever you and your partner decide!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You might well indeed find your soulmate....
but the harsh reality is that more than likely your soulmate will be your soulmate for as long as it takes him to find the next one.
Or you to find your next one... as the case may be...
True enough it IS better to have loved and lost..... just get used to the "lost" part because it will happen as soon as he finds someone better....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Does the same apply to you? Do you discard your own partners when you find someone better?
If not, then how do you know that Tempo's partner is not like you?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I cited two options....... One or the other will allow his eye to stray....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I dont beleave that is always true. Just look at all the people that stay togather till death.
J
So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
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... and yet there are still couples out there who manage to stay together for decades. How could this be?
Sure, divorce and separation are common, but advising everyone never to enter a committed partnership means that those people, if they follow your advice, who might otherwise have found lifelong happiness won't. That doesn't even take "loving and losing" into consideration.
David
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Marrage is mearly symbolic. It doesnt work for straight people so why should it work for gay people. There are other ways of insuring legal matters as well as inheritance. There are plenty who have lived their lives with one partner, its rare but it does happen. If you dont smother each other and dont try to be so much alike, you will do well. You dont have to go everywhere together, you dont have to have the same friends but you do have to communicate and be content with each other.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Hi Tempo
This is a hard one to answer. You cant possibly know whether you can make a commitment to one another until you have been together for some considerable time.
I suggest you dont even need to consider marriage until you have done this.
Just enjoy the friendship until you really know how you feel about one another.
From someone who has been married for 36 years the following sums it up for me,
Love is a temporary madness,
it erupts like volcanoes and then subsides.
And when it subsides you have to make a decision.
You have to work out whether your roots have so entwined together
that it is inconceivable that you should ever part.
Because this is what love is.
Love is not breathlessness,
it is not excitement,
it is not the promulgation of eternal passion.
That is just being "in love" which any fool can do.
Love itself is what is left over when being in love has burned away,
and this is both an art and a fortunate accident.
Those that truly love, have roots that grow towards each other underground,
and when all the pretty blossom have fallen from their branches,
they find that they are one tree and not two.
Best of luck
Aussie
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Tempo, read Grasshoppers story "In the Blink of an Eye". That is what love is about.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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Thanks, Aussie!
I believe that those words apply to gay and straight marriages or partnerships alike. Yes, broken marriages and partnerships are the order of the day, and there are instances when a breakup is the only obvious solution. But I wish I had someone, whom I could hold tight and whose arms I could feel around me.
"I love both of you so much," Carter whispered. "You caught the gold ring and held on tight. God bless and happy eternity. I hope I see you when it's my turn."
from "In the Blink of an Eye" by Grasshopper (Thanks, Roger)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The answer, if there is an answer, varies both by the people involved and the time in their lives.
I am, by inclination, promiscuous, yet I woudl have been faithful to the boy I fell for if he had been my partner (0.9 probability)
I married a wife, feamle. I am faithful to her. In part because I will not bring STDs into the partnership and in part because I respect her. That does not reduce my wish to share my bed with a man.
We have been together since Juoy 1979. But we probably should not be. We fight like anything over trivia. Yet I doubt we will part, simply becauuse I doubt it. But different folks would have split up
Marriage has to be worked hard at. And even if you think you have got it right your partner may have a different view. We never know what they think, not ever. They may surprise you by staying, they may surprise you by leaving. People do that. Sometimes either of those alternatives is horrid.
I don't think I've answered your question.
I would say "please do not judge harshly anyone who posts here, in this thread." His experience is his experience, I presume. And we have to accept peopoe at whatever point on life's path they are. Partnerships are wonderful and vile. Love does hurt.
[Updated on: Wed, 07 March 2007 20:41]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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There's nothing wrong with idly thinking about commitment. But from my point of view it is silly to commit to someone until you have been living with them at LEAST a year. It takes a lot to make a "marriage" type commitment work and it's not a decision that should be made out of love alone, practicality and respect for each other are every bit as important.
Love is often short lived, passion in a relationship comes in bursts and waves. For the last 2 weeks Ryan and I have been happier and more in love, but the month before that we were bitching and fighting all the time. A mutual respect is all that got us through, because "love" is an emotion, emotions are volatile and there are times when anger is the stronger emotion than love. It is those times that you need a bit of rationality, because if your relationship is founded on love alone- it will crumble.
Just my 2c. I've been with Ryan for almost 2 years and been living with him 18 months. It's a long time, yet a drop in the ocean compared to marriage.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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......... this is hard to say..... it hurts to say it.....
kevin and I are no longer together.....
Therefore if I feel a bit down on the subject of everlasting love and relationships..... you now know why.....
oh well..... it doesnt matter.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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sorry to here that!
life is to enjoy.
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Dear Marc,
I'm so terribly sorry to hear this. I know what life is like after a breakup, about the sense of grief and loneliness, and my thoughts go out to you.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I suspected as much. And I don't even know what to say. You had a lot to be upset about in life, but you were happy with him. I hope you can still be happy, Marc. *hugs*
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I'm sorry. I'm not quite sure what else to say. I know what it is like not to want some one and never have them but I would have no idea what iti s like to loose the one you love.
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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This is to all that posted and will post on this topic.
I would like to thank you all for all of your varied views and inputs. It was not my aim to upset anyone with this post, I just had a few questions of my own that I needed some help with and you have all been most helpful.
The process of clarification takes time, and time I will take. So I am in no hurry to make any rash decisions, for a change.
Thank you all once again.
Regards
Tempo
Hear me when I say
When I say I believe.
Nothing's gonna change
Nothing's gonna change destiny
Whatever's meant to be
Will work out perfectly
" Keep holding on - Averill Levine "
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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::hugs::
Marc, I'm very sorry to hear about this. You deserve better. You deserve much happiness. I hope you know that you have a lot of friends in this world who care about you and wish you only the very best in life. Always.
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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Hi all,
I was not going to say anything, but feel it only fair after everything that I have said.
It was a very sad day in my world when, on Saturday 10 Mar 2007, I picked up a magazine and saw the head story " S.A's First Gay divorce "
I have not yet been able to find an electronic copy of the article, but as soon as I have I will post it for you all.
Regards
Tempo.
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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We're not special just because we're gay. We make the same good choices and the same not so good choices as everyone else.
We're just newsworthy when we are gay and married to another man, not special. And we make the news when we split up only because we're gay. It's pretty much the same as when, in each country, heterosexual divorce became possible, then easier. It hit the news.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Sad but true, I have to say that I feel the same way. It just upsets me so that, like timmy says, we are newsworthy because we are gay.
Are we not people like everyone else, we all look the same on the inside.
However what upsets me more is the fact that the two parties involved in the story agreed to the interviews, are they glory seekers.
Oh well...
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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People love their 15 minutes of fame. Let them have their stupid glory. We don't need to care about that, though we can care that they made less than good choices in life.
A long partnership is not always a happy one. It's just a long partnership. Or it may be happy. Who can say?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi, I guess that most who know/remember who I am will probably say I am against gay marriage, but that is not my whole take on the subject. It is one thing to have unions between any two people and another thing to call it marriage. However, that is just to say who I am so those who are on the extreme opposite can position themselves to answer what I say.
You said, "Well I hate to break it to you like this but I am not going to do that. Yes I have been burnt and hurt and beaten, but I will never give up hope that I may someday find my soul mate. And just to let you know that I think I have already. What is it that they say " It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all "". I would especially agree with that last sentence and would encourage you to live with whomever meets your fancy. I refuse to impose my own preferences on anyone and I wish others would do the same really!
You have the right idea. If most all relationships end in some kind of failure, does it mean you shouldn't even make a try at it? I think not! I think there are a lot of ways to be happy and I would no more recommend someone who is straight to get married than I would to say no to someone who is gay living with another person he or she loves.
I am not sure if I would do my life over if I were to live it again, but I do regret never having a love of my life. Whether that person was male or female doesnt seem to matter so much to me at the present time as I know I am going to be alone. Of course many are alone while in a crowd of people but I think that never having felt in love is far worse.
So, no matter what is said here, go with your gut feelings. To risk nothing in life is to not really live at all is it? I am almost sure that a lot of my friends and family figure I am gay by now or at least it would not be too much of a shock to them. I have a gay couple living with me now and I am quite happy to have them around. They are nice guys and I want to see them succeed in their relationship. They have had some rough times in the last few months but I am trying to help them thru it. I told them the rent can wait while they get things in order and I hope that can be enough. "Life is too short to ration your candy", I guess that says most of what I can.
Ken
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Re: Gay Marrage 
Re: Gay Marrage 
Re: Gay Marrage 
