|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
I have a collection of studio still photographs from that film....
I will ask for it at the library.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
The first half of that film is as good a documentary as you will ever see on the 1960's British Public School.
As a snippet, the boy in the bath really did fancy the hell out of "Bobby Philips" in real life and had majore erection issues during that scene over him!
And Rubert Webster, who played Bobby was not killed in a stabbing in New York as popular myth had it. He proved this by attending a cast reunion a couple of year ago, several years after he had died.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
And Rubert Webster, who played Bobby was not killed in a stabbing in New York as popular myth had it. He proved this by attending a cast reunion a couple of year ago, several years after he had died.
And people say that there is no life after death! ;-D
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
'If...' has finally arrived, and I have to say it's really super to see it on a good quality DVD rather than a battered 15 year-old VHS television recording from the university library. If you haven't ordered or rented it (assuming that it is available for rental in your area) you should do. The Amazon UK version also includes the screenplay and some postcards.
It's much more visually sumptuous than I realised: much of the cinematography is really lovely and the style has barely dated at all. (The reason for the black and white sections is even more weird than I realised: it was partly budgetary, but some scenes were shot in black and white simply because Anderson, a monochrome fan, decided, on a whim, to change film stock for the day's shoot.) The actual content is odd ... simultaneously familiar (to me, as an ex-public schoolboy) and yet also very dated; I understand that, being based largely on Anderson's childhood, it was also fairly dated at the time it came out. It depicts a world grossly distorted from the one I knew, one rife with casual fantasy and violence -- but that, of course, was the point: it is never really clear when naturalism stops and fantasy takes over.
It's almost relentlessly bleak in its portrayal of the British establishment as bullies and deluded fools; I can imagine that it must have caused a tremendous stir at the time it came out. I wonder why no-one cares about it any more (witness the enormous length of time it took to arrive on DVD). Perhaps because the country is no longer ruled by the upper-middle and upper classes ... theoretically. Or because it's a niche-British film that doesn't pander to American tastes. Ah, that's probably it. (There is a valiant attempt on the commentary to explain the structure of a British public school to outsiders, but as you generally don't listen to the commentary until after you've seen the film, you may need to watch it a few times to get a really good idea. Fortunately it stands up to repeat viewings.)
There's also an odd little romance between a sixth-former and a younger boy. Ironically (given the progress since the 60s on that front) it's probably the only thing that would really raise an eyebrow were the film to be made nowadays.
Anyway, definitely worth watching if you're a fan of British public schools, or conversely, taking into account the 'message', particularly dislike them.
David
[Updated on: Mon, 30 July 2007 23:17] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No Message Body
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Oooh.... I dug em out and have 43 great shots
[Updated on: Tue, 31 July 2007 06:48]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Having lived through a minor public school in the 1960s I would say that the part up to the cafe scene is pretty much a documentary, including the romance. I witnessed one such romance in my school career (it remained amorous, not erotic).
The staff are portrayed accurately, the idiots truly were idiots, and we had just such a chaplain! The prefects ran the school, the staff ran the education.
I would say that we were five years more modern than the school in question.
As a piece of trivia, the boy in the bath brought tea by Rupert Webster fancied him rotten in real life and had, so a school colleague of his told me, major erection issues in that scene.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tim said,
>As a piece of trivia, the boy in the bath brought tea by Rupert Webster fancied him rotten in real life and had, so a school colleague of his told me, major erection issues in that scene.
Yes, you said (three posts above). 
Not sure I really believe it, though ... the sixth formers were mostly acted by men in their twenties (McDowell was 24 and he was playing a 16/17 year-old) and you would certainly expect actors of that age to be able to control themselves somewhere as harsh and businesslike as a movie set. Who would scupper his career in such a way over something so adolescent?
There's an interesting random trivia page here, including links to photographs of Webster and a explanation of the 'rumour'. Also a description of the 'fake script' which was invented purely to fool Cheltenham College so that they could get permission to shoot there:
http://www.geocities.com/malcolmtribute/if.html
The DVD, incidentally, also has an interesting little documentary, co-directed by Anderson, called 'Thursday's Children' about teaching deaf children to talk in the 50s. It won an Oscar, I believe.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
http://tinyurl.com/32b6mq
The 2001 theatrical re-release was 111m 21s. The DVD version is 106m 48s. This suggests it has been cut by several minutes. Apparently in the original there was a sex scene involving Mick and the girl, and also some (more graphic) nude shower sequences. I don't think these are on the DVD.
Hmm. Spoilsports. Almost certainly Paramount's doing, as the BBFC makes no mention of any required cuts to reach a 15 certificate.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Qyite a number of the 6th form came from Rugby
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I understand that many (most?) of the extras were part of Cheltenham itself.
I'd love to have been at the shoot. It's really amazing what they accomplished on such a small budget (£1/4 million).
'Run! Run in the corridor!'
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
And we altered that afterwards to yelling "don't run in the corridor", or the pretentious ones did.
I've noticed I posted a lot twice. My excuse is advanced years. Things are always better if you say them twice! We have limited opportunities at my advanced age to bore people, and I like to take all the chances I can get
Did "bath scene boy" go on to be an actor?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The name of the chap sipping tea in the bath and supervising the showers is Denson, one of the whips, played by Hugh Thomas. His was quite a major part, and, according to the IMDb, he is working in television to this day (or at least until a couple of years ago).
He would have been 18/19 at the time of shooting, assuming that the birth year in the IMDb is correct.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0858930/
DENSON: You, Phillips, stop tarting.
PHILLIPS: I'm not tarting.
DENSON: You need a haircut.
As the character of Denson in the film is constantly teased by his peers about his attraction to Phillips (despite denying it; it's not clear if he is really attracted or not) it seems more likely to me either that someone got the character mixed up with the actor, or that friends extended the teasing to the actor simply because of the part his was playing. Given the intense artificiality of a film set I honestly doubt he would be given any opportunity to be aroused -- I suppose it is possible, but in any case most of the time I imagine he would have been wearing shorts (not visible on camera) anyway.
So, hmm -- your story is possible, but I'm suspicious! It just sounds like too much of a coincidence if the real-life actor was in almost exactly the same situation as his character.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 31 July 2007 17:24] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Well, all I have to go on is the report from one of my student colleagues who was at Rugby at the same time
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ah, but was he being tongue-in-cheek?
And it also depends on whether Thomas went to Rugby. Perhaps I should write to him and ask.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hmmm, now I'm gonna have to buy the DVD to see what bits are missing!
"If ... " remains one of my all-time favourite films: it was one of the very few films at the time to feature a positive same-sex relationship, and the parts of the film that deal with rebellion, autonomy and authority are to me still pretty powerful stuff. As an adolescent, it gave me stuff to dream about, role-models, and a certain poetic truth.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ah ... now I come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.
Film is usually shot at 24 frames per second. British television (PAL) is shot at 25 frames per second. The telecine process therefore usually speeds up the film very slightly so that the frames match.
111 minutes x 24/25 is approximately 106 minutes. Whoops!
There's a review of the DVD here:
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=65418
Apparently 'More can be seen if the film is viewed open-matte'; open-matte means not masking the film to the aspect correct ratio and viewing the film at 4:3 rather than 1.66:1. I suppose you would have to find a copy of the 35mm film to establish whether that is correct!
David
[Updated on: Wed, 01 August 2007 10:41] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
OK, I have to do this. I've been resisting all day, but I can't help it.
Geek!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's all geek to you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Ah timeo Danaos et dona ferentes!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've been watching the extras on the disk. Apparently there was more nudity, but Anderson removed it before the film was ever released as part of a bargain with the censors. So I think all the released versions are pretty much the same (unless they've been cut for television, which is, of course, evil and immoral).
Has anyone else seen any more of Anderson's work? I've not seen any of it, largely because it's been so difficult to get hold of.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy said,
>Ah timeo Danaos et dona ferentes!
... which, of course, translates as:
'Timmy fears Daniel even when he bears gifts'
The question on all of our lips is, 'Who is Daniel, and why has he been giving Tim presents?'
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Ah Daniel. Well thereby hangs a tail. Or was that on the lion? Or perhaps on the loin?
I was just going through my little list. Nary a Daniel is on it, quite a surprise.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I've seen Oh Lucky Man without any memory of it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think you'll find it's O Happy Man (says the πεδαντικ γ[ρ]ηκ...)
Sorry, just felt like using Greek letters for no reason at all.
[Updated on: Wed, 01 August 2007 22:04] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Even I don't understand my post. I *know* it's not O Happy Man and I'm genuinely baffled as to how it got to be written there under my name.
I think I must have started writing a post correcting your 'Oh' and somehow managed to convince myself temporarily that you'd got the adjective wrong too.
Please feel free to patronise me. I deserve it. I'm sorry.
I'm currently banging my head against the wall out of sheer embarrassment and it's mak i gn it v eryh diff clt to typ e
[Updated on: Wed, 01 August 2007 22:59] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Are you a pedant if you correct someone and get it wrong?
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
A pednut I think
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have read this thread with interest. I can still remember the first time I saw it in London's West End as a midnight movie and who I saw it with. That evening was significant in another way as while I was at the cinema my room mate was being seduced by a boy I too was greatly attracted to. At the time I was little to know that I would now be living seven or eight miles from where it was filmed. I recognise parts of the A38 from the b/w scenes with the motorbike; the transport café is long gone. I have 'If…' on VHS and I think I even have a copy with a German soundtrack somewhere.
The battle scene had never seemed that much of a fantasy to me for when I was at school and a member of th Corps I needed to get one key inorder to gain access to live ·303 rifles and ammunition. Why a CCF would want need ·303 ammo in the first place still beats me.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
|
|
|
|
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
