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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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As I walked round, doing my shopping, I saw the most beautiful boy child. He was jaw droppingly beautiful. Not sexy, not pretty, not cute. Just beautiful. He had unkempt blond hair, blue eyes, and freckles, and his clothes complemented his beauty. He has a white T and three quarter length camo cargo pants. He was perhaps 11 years old.
Heads turned, not just mine. He was seemingly alone, and wandering aimlessly round the shelves. You know how, when you go round a supermarket you always see the same people because you're doing a circuit? This boy was not, and he popped up hither and yon.
In a year or two he'll be breaking hearts, but, soon enough, he'll break his parents' hearts.
As I waited at the checkout he breezed through, carrying a can of drink he hadn't had before, past the till and out of the store. Shoplifter.
The thing is, he's so beautiful that he'll either get away with it, or just be spotted and caught. My bet is on spotted and caught.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Can a theif really be cute????
I don't think so....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I seem to remember that I said he was beautiful, not cute.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Can a theif be beautiful?
Nope to that one too...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Don't see why not.
Theft is a behaviour, beauty is a physical attribute.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Now for the philosophical question....
Seeing as you saw the boy stealing did you report it?
If yes, why?
If not, then why not?
--------------
Is stealing stealing? Is it a crime of degrees? Does a theif deserve not to be prosecuted just because his theft is trivial?
If so..... Then it seems that a bank rober that robs only trivial small banks should be let free.....
If not.... then a theif is a theif is a theif and all theives caught should have their comeuppance.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You miss my point entirely....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well, perhaps you need to state it more explicitly.
The child was beautiful
The child was a thief
All we know is that at least one beautiful child is in the set that intersects with the set of thieves.
Behaviour and physical beauty are not mutually exclusive
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I was collecting points on something called a "Reward card". When I tried to redeem them I was told that I had "missed the deadline". I still have the card. It has no expiry date on it.
Marketing people are odd. They will spend huge budgets trying to build "customer loyalty" and then cynically move the goalposts with the result that customers end up less loyal than they were before.
I hardly ever shop there now.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I did not report it for many reasons:- I was tired
- I was in a hurry
- I was in a long queue and would have lost my place
- I had hot food with me and had no desire for it to get cold
- I could not prove what I saw, I just knew it to be true
- I didn't actually care enough to bother
- He was well on his way anyway
- They have security guards, store detectives and cameras for that
- etc
- etc, etc
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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we are all too busy in the u.k. to spend our time over a trivial thing, any way sainsburys do have a in store security man who is paid to watch out for shoplifting, even cute young boys can carry knives.
life is to enjoy.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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and neither are they by default inclusive....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess playing the complaciency card is within the rules.....
he after all was beautiful.....
And why sully that?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Being truly jaw-droppingly beautiful can be a bit of a curse for people - I've known a couple over the years.
There's the "halo effect" (where humans make a connection between someone looking beautiful and being a great person), which means people are reluctant to believe anything bad of a beautiful person, they get better marks in school for the same work, etc. All of which encourages the kid's perception that they can get away with things.
There's the other effect where a beautiful kid attracts a lot of hangers on, many of whom are motivated by "look, I must be great if I can have such a beautiful friend".
And there's also the problem that a fair proportion of people who are jaw-droppingly beautiful before puberty are not so afterwards ... and vice-versa, though that is less of a problem - the kids may have problems coming in making that adjustment ...
All in all, being a beautiful child is not something to be wished on anyone. But my guess would be that it's generally better to let them get away with a little petty thievery, than to confront them as a stranger (who ultimately has no effective power of discipline) ... rather along the lines of giving themselves enough rope to hang themselves.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Hmm.
I'm sure you're right -- he'll be caught sooner or later. I hope that petty shoplifting is not the first step towards a lifetime of antisocial behaviour.
To go off on a tangeant, I've never noticed other heads turning when I pass a good-looking young man. I wonder how many people would notice my head turning. I'm sure I'd be highly embarrassed if I knew!
David
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Deeej wrote:
> I hope that petty shoplifting is not the first step towards a lifetime of antisocial behaviour.
>
I think that being a former stunningly beautiful kid can often result in attention-seeking behaviour, which can be acted-out in some fairly antisocial ways.
>
> To go off on a tangeant, I've never noticed other heads turning when I pass a good-looking young man. I wonder how many people would notice my head turning. I'm sure I'd be highly embarrassed if I knew!
>
If someone is truly head-turningly good-looking, chances are that other people will also be looking at them, rather than you!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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That puts two and two together and makes 5
I wasn't about to do anything about it, period. The store has people to do that job. There's a guy in a security uniform who gets paid to stand in the entrance lobby. Security cameras are everywhere. I had an unwell wife at home and was rushing to get supper for her.
Complacent? No. It was a positive decision to say "Their problem not mine".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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You are right Deeej and for his sake let's hope he is caught sooner than later. I nicked a few things from a store when I was his age - it was on a dare. I got away with it and so attempted it again. This time I was caught. My Mom was called to the store to collect me. She was deeply ashamed and embarrassed. It was the thought of what I put her through that straightened me out from thenceforth. Sometimes we need these object lessons in our lives. Let's hope the beautiful child receives his and that the authorities don't go overboard.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well, if they were, thenm all beautiful children would be thieves and all thieves would be beautiful children.
Where are you going with this?
My observation was that beauty makes being caught for theft potentially more likely because the child was noticable
[Updated on: Sun, 06 May 2007 15:27]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Well, if they were, thenm all beautiful children would be thieves and all thieves would be beautiful children.
>
> Where are you going with this?
I am not going anywhere.... just sitting here....
I could ask the same to you.... but i didn't
when i see a theif i let the innocent party know he/she is a victom.
it is what is right and proper...
>
> My observation was that beauty makes being caught for theft potentially more likely because the child was noticable
But you saw him and let him go.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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OK, let's just rewind this.
While I know what I saw I cannot prove what I saw. There is no way I am about to make an accusation to a store whose public policy is to prosecute without exception or management discretion on "unprovable knowledgde"
What if I never saw his mother, and she'd given him the can and was paying for it? How unpleasant an old busybody would I be then?
Why do I have to be at fault here?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In your origional post the word "shoplifter" is pretty much defining a theif.
It didn't say "maybe a shoplifter" or "perhaps a shoplifter"
It said "shoplifter"
If you can't make the accusation there how is it right to do it here?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Doing it here I have named no-one, simply said a beautiful 11 year old or so male child.
Doing it there means "Stop that child! It is a thief!"
I can see the difference between those two actions very easily. I still have no idea why I must be made to feel guilty for observing, not acting, and posting about my observation.
I don't feel guilty about it, and nothing anyone can say will make me feel guilty about it, but you are certainly trying to do it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Doing it here I have named no-one, simply said a beautiful 11 year old or so male child.
>
> Doing it there means "Stop that child! It is a thief!"
>
> I can see the difference between those two actions very easily. I still have no idea why I must be made to feel guilty for observing, not acting, and posting about my observation.
>
> I don't feel guilty about it, and nothing anyone can say will make me feel guilty about it, but you are certainly trying to do it.
To mention that you saw a beautiful boy is one thing...
To mention that you saw a theif is another...
Both unimoprtant...
But when you combine the two it says to me that a beautiful boy is due a free ride...
It has nothing to do with guilt on your part... It is just an observation.
Do I think it is wrong to allow a theif to go free? Yes, I do.
Do I believe that to let a theif go free sends a signal to the theif that it is all right to steal? Yes, I do.
My opinion...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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I was told by timmy that this board was for helping people, or have i missed something.
life is to enjoy.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is indeed for helping people....
but help comes in many forms....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I said that I felt that the fact that he was beautiful made people notice him, and that he was thus more likely to be caught.
"The thing is, he's so beautiful that he'll either get away with it, or just be spotted and caught. My bet is on spotted and caught."
All else comes from you, not from me, as you say. But you are trying to hang a guilt trip on me over this, and there is nowhere to hang it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well, it is. But the child in question is not likely to be about to come here for help, because there is only a 10% chance that he is gay (Kinsey), and also a low probability that he would find us.
I hope he does not come here. The atmosphere, should he recognise himself, seems highly directed towards reporting the brat for an act that, while illegal, is trivial. People walk out of the store with TV sets. Why should this 11 year old kid be pilloried for a can of drink?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Would be really interesting to hear the kids story, wouldn't it?
Also the look on his sweet innocent beautiful face when he learnt what a storm he brewed up.
Aussie
PS I hope I'm not interupting anything here
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I'll stand by "beautiful", but not "sweet" nor "innocent". 
I expect all he would say is "Yeah, I nicked a can of drink. So what?" Assuming I am right and he did.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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I was just assuming if he was beautiful he would also have 'looked' sweet and innocent (but maybe not)
Anyway looks can be deceiving.
I was recently crossing a very narrow bridge on a shared footpath and bike track. Half way across I was met by 2 nice looking young teenagers on a motorbike going the other way. As we squeezed past each other I said to them "I don't think you are supposed to ride motorbikes across here"
To which one of them replied "you had better keep moving or we'll throw you off the bridge you old f**k.
Things aren't what they used to be, I would never have dared to say that to an adult in my youth.
Seems like respect is a thing of the past these days.
Aussie
[Updated on: Sun, 06 May 2007 23:43] |
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Thats because parents now days tell their children they dont have to respect elders. All of this is one mans fault Dr. Benjamin Spock. Im pretty sure the boy has been told hes beautiful plenty of times and he has used that and sad puppy dog eyes to get out of trouble befor. One of these days it wont work, then what?
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Nope, not a bit.....
I am just making the point that a theif should not get a free ride for any reason...
Be that reason good or be that reason bad.... or indifferent for that matter...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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One can extend that.
Theft is unlawful. Unlawful acts should always be punished by the law. Theft should thus always be punished.
In Saudi Arabia, homosexuality is unlawful. Homosexuality should be punished by the law. Homosexuality should always be punished. Since homosexuality is punished by death, all Saudi homosexuals should be executed.
In the USA in certain states, I think Virginia for sure, it used to be unlawful for a man and a woman to have sex in any position other than the missionary position. Oral sex was "sodomy" it seems, and punishable in law. All such felons should be punished in law.
In terminal stages of cancer the pain relief required is likely to be also sufficient to kill the patient. Killing a patient is unlawful. Any doctor who prescribes sufficient pain relief to a terminal cancer patient and should thus be punished under the law. Since the intent was to give enough of the drug to kill (can't be helped) the doctor should be charged with murder. In a nation where the death penalty applies that doctor should be executed.
There is such a thing as degree and appropriateness.
[Updated on: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:25]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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This thread has been reduced to the ridiculous in order to undermine a principle of morality.
The commandment "Thou shalt not steal" is still valid.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Not really. There is nothing ridiculous about the genuine exhortation not to steal. The issue I found unappetising is the fact that it appears that anyone who views what they believe to be a crime appears to be duty bound to report it.
This means, presumably, that I must report all road traffic offences, presumably including my own. All peole shouting in quiet streets are exhibiting behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. They must be reported.
This child was 11 years old or younger. A serious grip is needed on a sense of proportionality.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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What a generalisation!
I'm sure there were unpleasant youths when you were young too. I always do my best to be polite to strangers, regardless of age. The same applies to my friends, and while I know that they are hardly a representative cross-section of society, they do count for something. If you were brought up to be polite to others, so are many, many people nowadays. It's just a small proportion that let the side down.
Incidentally, respect and politeness aren't necessarily the same thing. It's important to be polite to everyone, but respect is something that is earnt. A cantankerous old bat on the bus is not more worthy of respect than one's same-age peers, except where she is clearly at a disadvantage (if she is in need of a seat, for instance).
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Since you demand to extend this to a broader view of the situation.....
Then the answer is by default (of and by the legislation of any soverign state involved) YES.
If one commits a crime they run the risk of punnishment for that crime.
All the more so if the miscreant chooses to commit the crime in broad daylight and in public view (say such as a busy store).
A crime is someones taking a conscious decision to break the law with the (implied) expectation that it will not be noticed thus avoiding prosecution for said crime.
It is rather a basic concept, that if one does the crime they run the risk to do the time.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is because they get away with it. over and over again.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Nigel wrote:
> This thread has been reduced to the ridiculous in order to undermine a principle of morality.
>
> The commandment "Thou shalt not steal" is still valid.
"Thou shalt not steal" is not a basic principle of morality, it's a local principle applying only in societies that have a notion of personal ownership (as ours does). Basically, it's a tribal taboo. What is considered "stealing" is local custom. And - like most local customs - it has a complex range of exceptions (most people would consider it OK to steal to feed a starving child of theirs, but probably not to steal in the UK to feed a starving child in Africa). Would you steal a person's slave, in order to set the slave free? I would!
The basic universal moral principle is something like "thou shalt not deprive other people of access to the resources that are theirs".
That means, for example, no signing land treaties with autochthonous peoples who have no notion of private ownership of land (they don't, in a Western sense, "own" it, but treat it as a resource-in-common).
These comments are relevant in that I really don't think that kids that age are ever fully socialised into the particular taboos of our society (the age of criminal responsibility used to be fourteen): while they know what they "should" do, they have not internalised the taboos, and may indeed be actively resisting doing so (known as "adolescent rebellion"). And it is right that kids should go through a period of challenging our social norms - if we cannot defend them, the norms should be scrapped.
In the case of the beautiful shoplifter, the norm clearly CAN (and should) be defended ... although only on the grounds that two wrongs do not make a right, even though the ethical conduct of supermarkets leaves much to be desired!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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