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Channel 4 in the UK has sparked controversy by announcing that it will screen a documentary called Virgin School this coming Tuesday at 10:00pm.
According to a recent study (by Radio 1, MTV and Durex) the vast majority of people lose their virginity between the ages of 16 and 18. However, there is a small section of society who remain virgins well into middle age. Around 4% of people haven't had sex by the time they hit 25.
One of them is James, a 26 year-old virgin. He's 'never even got to first base.' He says that 'Being a Virgin you get judged, you're isolated, an outcast. For me losing my virginity is a rite of passage, it's about becoming a man and feeling like everyone else, feeling that you're not abnormal.'
The documentary follows James's emotional and physical journey as he embarks on a unique four month course for sexually inexperienced men, in Amsterdam. Situated at Aquarion, an established 'school for love and leadership', the course is designed by experienced professionals to boost his self confidence - both socially and sexually, and concludes with the opportunity for him to lose his virginity to one of the (female) sex therapist coaches.
James had previously given up all hope of ever having sex or having a meaningful relationship. The programme tracks how that could all be about to change as he heads off to Virgin School.
The Daily Mail published criticism of the documentary when it was first announced last autumn, although the outcry seems to be mostly around the suggestion that Channel 4 is boosting ratings through showing sexual imagery.
What makes me uncomfortable is the implication that there is somehow something "wrong", or at least "odd" about hitting the age of 25 and still being a virgin.
But if the experience helped James and might potentially help others then surely it has to be a good thing, and it is right that the programme should be screened. What do others think?
http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/V/virgins/school.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=419973&in_page_id=1773
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think the issue here is that it truly is ratings building (0.9 probability). Equally there is nothing wrong with never having had sex, nor even with never having masturbated (apart from prostatic health).
Viriginity is only important when one has sex for the first time and wonders what to do. Two virigns on a wedding night are not a total recipe for successful sex.
Why on earth do people know that James is a virgin, and why would it ever be important to them?
If James is intent on shedding virginity there are very good and discreet prostitutes who will assist him at a probable far lower fee than any "school", and in a very practical manner.
Sex is fun. Realtionships are fun. Add the two togetehr and you get more fun. But that may not be the way (eg) James wishes his fun to be packaged.
Now, this programme is sexually biased. What if James wanted another guy? Would it provide? The prostitute route would.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You mean that is is not odd to be 25 and still a virgin?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I would like the word to be migrated from "odd" to "unusual" because "odd" gives connotations of abnormality.
It is unusual, but by no means rare. OK a paradoxical statement, but nonetheless true.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am uncomfortable with the word "odd", but virginity at 25 would certainly appear to be statistically uncommon.
Conversely, virginity at (say) 13 would appear to be statistically common.
Therefore at some point between the ages of 13 and 25 most males make the transition from being a virgin to not being a virgin. At what stage should the male virgin start to think "why is this happening to most other people, but not to me?". What, if anything, should he do about it? And what role, if any, should society play?
After all, society actively discourages sexually promiscuity amongst younger teens. But they tend not to say, when you get older, "it's OK, you can start now". So should the parents/family/friends/doctor/priest of the 25 year-old virgin say something or is this a private matter which is out of bounds to all but the individual himself?
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Interesting concept, but Im sure it will be boring as all get out. I have met some guys who were in their 20's and still virgin, but not a bunch. I was virgin till I was 20, but it was more out of the fear of being caught then not having the oportunity.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... the topic merits deeper thought.
Channel 4 is a terrestrial channel with national coverage; it is wholly commercially funded but has public service obligations in accordance with its Charter of Incorporation. These obligations include a requirement to transmit innovative programming. Since its launnch 25 years ago it has certainly striven to do so, and as is inevitable in such circumstances some mistakes have been made. Its demographic target is the young adult age group, from late teens to early forties, and most of its advertising revenue derives from placements aimed at that group.
Channel 4 is often held up to ridicule for its 'Big Brother' group of programmes, but those programmes are popular with the target age group and bring in the funds to subsidise other 'quality' programming. Over the years, the channel has earned wide acclaim for a sizeable number of groundbreaking series - ranging fom 'Queer as Folk' to the popular and long-running archaeology series 'Time Team'.
Against that background, I am not prepared to dismiss the forthcoming programme as a ratings-grabbing exercise. In principle, I think that programming about minority problems such as this can only be helpful. Channel 4 has broadcast similar programmes in the past, looking are unusual medical and psychiatric conditions. On the whole, feedback seems to indicate that they have increased public awareness and have been especially helpful to viewers with similar problems.
The 'Daily Mail' is a right-wing newspaper peddling self-righteousness to the self-righteous. Its reaction was entirely predictable because it never fails to take the opportunity to be simultaneously salacious and disapproving. The expression of an opinion by the Daily Mail automatically predisposes me to take the opposite view!
We must wait and see whether the programme is well-made and presents a balanced view - though unfortunately I won't be able to watch it myself. In the meantime I cannot imagine how it can be seen as harmful in any way.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I sure wont be able to see it, so I have to rely on good Scotsman and Englishmen to tell me if it was boring. I just cant for the life of me see where there is going to be anything excitting or enlightening about this kind of show. Basicly they are pandering sex to these younger people to make a buck. The dude can always get laid, unless he is butt ugly and his mom had to tie a porkchop around his neck so the dogs would play with him. I just cant see where this guy getting laid would be an enlightenment to anybody, except for the fact that sex is involved. Of course there is always the Bevis and Butthead effect and Im sure the teens will be glued to the TV. It sounds like they have done a lot of good shows, but I dont think this is going to be one of them. So, someone let me know how it goes.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Unless one is Cliff Richard and wants to make a great play about chastity then I think it is an essentially private matter.
"Opportunities" abound. But an opportunity may be unsavoury to one individual and the very essence of living to another.
Older uncles in the middle and upper classes seem to have bought the 14 year old a tart and "disposed of" virginity in that manner. I'm not sure that was particularly useful, though
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Roger, I usually respect your opinions, but I'm surprised that your opinion is so one-sided. You're starting to sound just like the Daily Mail (and that's not a good thing, even if you're a middle-aged right-wing English housewife!).
>I just cant for the life of me see where there is going to be anything excitting or enlightening about this kind of show. Basicly they are pandering sex to these younger people to make a buck.
If so, what does it matter? I seem nothing harmful about the depiction of such a problem, and if the target audience appreciates it then good for Channel 4. You're probably not one of the target audience -- but you have no obligation to watch it either (especially considering, with the greatest of respect, that you come from a different, rather more uptight culture). Channel 4 is subject to industry regulation, it receives money from the license fee as well as advertising, and its remit frequently comes under scrutiny -- as it will do if there's anything insensitive or gratuitous about this programme. I say give them a chance. It hasn't even been broadcast yet.
>The dude can always get laid, unless he is butt ugly and his mom had to tie a porkchop around his neck so the dogs would play with him.
That's rather facile. I'm now 23 and still a virgin. I'm told I'm not butt ugly. By the same logic, I should have no problem getting laid either. True -- if sex were all I were after then I doubt I would have any problem. But that's not what I'm looking for.
Have you not considered:
- that this man's upbringing might present a complete social block
- that he might be asexual
- that he might completely lack the self-confidence to ask anyone out?
Yes, he could always consult a psychologist rather than baring all for the camera, but that doesn't mean that such a course won't help him.
>I just cant see where this guy getting laid would be an enlightenment to anybody, except for the fact that sex is involved.
How could Big Brother ever be enlightenment to anybody? Obviously it couldn't. Scrap it!
David
[Updated on: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:58] |
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Ah my friend, If you had read my other post you would have read that I was a virgin till I was 20. I wasnt looking for just sex either. I think you are very brave to hold out for the right reasons. Dont give in till you are ready. He may have a really good reason to seek help from this school or whatever, but airing it for all the world to see is something else. I just cant imagine what would be intertaining about this. Thats why I said someone let me know how the show went. I was being a bit facetious in my other post, but does this not sound a bit strange to you? Have you ever seen the Jerry Springer show? This show is like the arm pit of the TV industry. They have such wonderful shows like " I slept with my wifes brother on our wedding night". And you wonder, where in the world did they find these people. Then you begin to dought that they are completely honest.
I am very courious to know if the show is worth watching. It may actually help someone else, but I cant see intertainment value in someone being taught how to proposition someone for sex. Yep, our country is uptight, but what do you expect from a country founded by Puritains.
Yes you are very handsome and your mind is sharp as a tack. If I were 23 again and single I would make my bid to date you. Hang in there. Look for friendship and love first. Everything else will follow.
I cant see this show holding my attention. I may be wrong and if I am I will eat crow. since we cant get the show here, I will have to rely on someone to inform me how the show went.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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I agree with you, cossie, about suspending judgement: C4 have produced some really very good shows on difficult subjects, as well as some total dross.
I don't actually think that being a virgin in ones 20s, or even 30s, is notably uncommon. I even think it may be becoming more common: as the kind of rather shy gay guy who might previously have settled for a straight marriage now accepts their homosexuality earlier, but may find it even more difficult to find an appropriate gay partner (for "relationship" sex).
I have actually met a couple of people who did not lose their virginity 'til their 40s - but in both cases there was a fear of women, or I think that at least one of them would have got married.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The show might air on the Canadian Television Network, which I get here piped in from Windsor.
I will watch for it and copy it if it does play.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I did read your other post. But it's overkill to use such provocative language unless you really have a bee in your bonnet about something ("The dude can always get laid, unless he is butt ugly and his mom had to tie a porkchop around his neck so the dogs would play with him"), as it gives the impression -- whether true or false -- that you're the sort of person who wouldn't give anything a chance. Certainly to ridicule the chap like that for not just going out and getting laid is a bit cruel.
I don't watch the Jerry Springer show, and I don't like the little I have seen of it either, but I don't object to them making it. It's a lowest common denominator show and, if the lowest common denominator enjoys it, then by all means let them. The network makes money and the audience gets what it wants.
David
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Like I said, some of that was my attempt at humor. Ill give anyone a chance and like I said I could be wrong. In the back of my mind Im saying "This is a set up". This guy supposidly is to shy or socially awkward to ask a girl out, yet he can spread his personal private business out for all the world to see. LIke I said, Let me know how the show turns out. Where did the media find this young man? How much is he being paid? What prof do they have that he is a virgin other than he says he is? Im very aware of how the media can funtion here in the States. I know that the BBC sets high standards, thats why I watch it here, especially for the news. I know that a lot of these reality shows kinda leave you wondering about the people involved. It may turn out to be a wonderful show, but then Im out of thier age range, so that may explain why it would not catch and hold my attention.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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>This guy supposidly is to shy or socially awkward to ask a girl out, yet he can spread his personal private business out for all the world to see.
Well, a shy person can open up to a therapist. It's fun to be the centre of attention, and acting for the cameras is worlds away from trying to chat up a girl in a difficult social environment. I myself find it almost impossible to meet new people, but working with a film crew is easy once you know them, as they're not strangers any more, and everyone has a specific fixed role.
David
[Updated on: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:20] |
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I lived with a man who was so shy it was painful. He was the most loving person I had ever had the privilage to know and to love. He could give a lecture and never bat an eye, discuss physics with students, but putting his laundry out for the world to see, something like that would have terrorized him.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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did anyone watch it?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Some people like to take things slow, no dig deal. What IS a big deal would probably be if He hasn't been in a relationship or a date, ever. personally I think something would have to be seriously wrong in that scenario, wouldn't you agree?
*Scribbles on the screen* There You go....
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I suppose it would depend on what one described as a date.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I saw the programme and thought the subject matter was sensitively handled.
Part of James's problem was low self-esteem, which stemmed from the time he had been teased and ridiculed at school.
The ladies gave him the opportunity to explore his sexual side in a safe environment. And, yes, in the end he did lose his virginity.
I thought he was very brave. Bridget was scary.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Did he enjoy the experience? TV and loss of virginity?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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The main thing that came across was a sense of relief.
On the TV aspect:
Interviewer: When people watch this film, do you think people will make fun of you?
James: I don't care if they do really, frankly. At the end of the day I didn't do this film really for entertainment value or for people to watch and go and say "oh look at him, he's acting, pretending". I did this for me.
On losing his virginity:
Interviewer: Was it amazing?
James: For me it was. First time and all.
Interviewer: So, you're not a virgin any more.
James: No. YAY! (laughs) It's hard to describe something like that really. It's a relief to me though. Because I thought I was impotent. I panicked about the whole thing. I thought: "oh no, what if I can't actually... and I was thinking oh no please please please... I wasn't going to be so embarrassed and feel a complete idiot.
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Attachment: James.jpg
(Size: 55.41KB, Downloaded 351 times)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In real terms, and not having watched the show, it looks to me to be much the same as if a kindly uncle had bought the lad a tart. Except this was 12 years later than "usual".
I know this went out of fashion in the 20th century, but it used to happen. I had one such event planned for me, so I was never allowed to visit that uncle!
I'm still not sure why it was a TV item, though. I suppose there is the "will he, won't he" element, but it still seems to me to be a personal thing in society's "normal" morality. I'm not saying that it should be personal. I think society is too preoccupied with "morals" and keeping equipment covered in case it frightens the horses while actually "wanting to know every little detail of what goes on. I'd far rather see a more open attitude to all bodily functions. If you can sneeze in public....
I really think that all we need to know is that people have different reasons for remaining virgins, and that some wish it were not so, or need or want to find out of the equipment functions with another person present.
Some of those reasons, but by no means all, are down to low self esteem over the naked body. To me a show like "How to Look Good Naked" does far more for the populace's self esteem than a show regarding the loss of one specific virginity.
[Updated on: Mon, 21 May 2007 06:15]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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