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COURT ACQUITS TEACHER OF "RETARD" ABUSE CHARGES Reuters: Thu Jun 28, 9:14 AM ET
A teacher who forced a pupil to write "I am a retard" 100 times was acquitted by an Italian court on Wednesday of abuse charges.
The teacher, whose identity was withheld to protect her privacy, forced the punishment on the 12-year-old boy after he blocked a fellow pupil from going to the toilet and called him "gay" and "girly."
The parents had sought 25,000 euros ($33,580) in damages and a public prosecutor had called for a two-month prison sentence, but the court cleared the teacher, a court source said.
The teacher said her punishment of the boy had been appropriate, particularly after a widely publicized case of an adolescent who committed suicide in Italy, apparently after receiving taunts at school about being homosexual.
Gay rights groups had called for the charges to be dropped.
"I never intended to humiliate the boy," the teacher told journalists after she was cleared.
In Italian, she made the boy write: "Io sono deficiente," which literally means "deficient" but is more commonly used as a disparaging term meaning "moron" or "mentally retarded."
"I explained, discussing with him and his classmates, that deficient means 'lacking'. He was 'lacking' sensitivity for one of his classmates," the teacher said.
*********************
What sort of message do the boy's parents send him? They not only raised him to be a homophobe but to be a bully. They saw nothing wrong with their child's actions and instead sought court redress. It is the boy's parents who belong up at that blackboard!!!>
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Whatever one feels about the teacher's use of punishment she was at fault in the implementation. Instead of deprecating the behaviour she pinned a label to the child.
If she had made him write a Bart Simpson style punishment, such as "I must not call other people stupid names" then no-one could have criticised her. While the child she punished behaved like a brat and may spend much of his time acting like a brat, labelling him "as a brat" is not a valid punishment.
I think I would have ensued she understood this, and made it the outcme of any disciplinary hearing. I support her intent but not her action.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Agreed.
The child was in the wrong to use those insults. But the teacher was more so. The job of the teacher isn't to discipline for wrong opinions, merely behaviours, in my opinion.
The behaviour of calling another student "gay" or "girly" should be disciplined, but homophobic opinions aren't something that can or should be disciplined for. A teacher has a duty to encourage opinions, but never to punish for them.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Shem said,
>A teacher has a duty to encourage opinions, but never to punish for them.
What about discouraging them?
There is a clear division between opinions that are gained through personal consideration of the issues, and those that are gained through imitating others. The former is a vital part of growing up and becoming an independent-minded adult. The latter is groupthink: in children, this leads to bullying; in adults, sexism, homophobia, racism and so on. Many religious groups encourage only the latter and I have nothing but disdain for them, regardless of the message they preach (even if it is could be judged objectively to be a good one).
I expect good teachers to steer children away from the imitation of adults and each other and to encourage them to think about the issues themselves. In this case, I find it hard to believe that a 12 year-old's homophobia is an example of a careful, considered opinion (the sort of opinion that you suggest should be encouraged). At 12, I had precious few opinions on the subject of homosexuality and would have been inclined to follow my peers: I can certainly remember being rather childishly silly about it. I believe that, in my case -- and probably in most cases of schoolboy homophobia -- it would have been absolutely right to deprecate the imitated 'opinion' and encourage proper thought on the subject.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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When the child croessed the line from opinion to direct contact abuse when he prevented a student from using the facilities.
The punishment was appropriate...
If anything it was far too leanient.....
If it were my child being refused access to the facilities i would have filed assault charges and persued them vigilently.
.........
also.... a 12 year old is old enough to form an opinion... at 12 i had an opinion about gay sex and qwuite activle persued it to fruition...
When one is living a secret life... as in the closit... one can easily rationalize their fear of exposure as "going along with the crowd"... but in reality that is living a with a false face on and that does no one any good. especially ther one behind the mask.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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At 12 (possibly that's pushing it slightly, but certainly at 10 or 11) I had no sexuality, no particular interest in gaining one, and I knew very little about either heterosexuality or homosexuality. I had no real opinion at all, and if I expressed one it was not because I had thought about it but because I was trying to 'fit in' with everyone else.
It was not living behind a mask because there was nothing to conceal.
Of course a 12 year-old can have an opinion, and I did on many things, but I suspect that *most* 12 year-olds are not mature enough to have a strong and valid opinion on matters relating to relationships and sexuality. I am not saying that you, as an individual, did not, Marc.
Oh, and you would file assault charges against a 12 year-old? Good Lord. Would that really help the child to reconsider his behaviour?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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First.... i disagree.... most 12 year olds definatly have opinions regarding sexual behavior...
Exeryone has sexuality.... from the time they are able to take hold of it they are aware of what feels good and ehat does not. a select extreemily few coule possible fall into the dry category and one extreem end of the bell curve... true.... but don;t lump the majority into that world... it just does not work that way.
At 12 I knew which side of the fence i sat on but I also knew with certanty that every boy..... yes every boy i chose to have sex with did. not one ever refused.... now i dont particularly say this to blow my own horn... i was not that flexible... but not for a lack of trying... anyhow... my point is that every boy i ever approached for sex was a willing participant....
The good lord has nothing to do with it... assault is assault... and yes a good stint in the juvinile detention center would drfinatly send a message that imposing physical force to intimidate someone is not to be tollerated.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2007 15:30]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I fear I expressed myself badly.
The teacher was absolutely right to discipline the child. The incorrect thing was to (effectively) call the child a name herself.
The correct punishment is for the behaviour of being spiteful towards the other child, but she achieved labelling the miscreant "Deficient".
When you punish people you address their behaviour, not their beliefs nor their personality. She addressed the child's beliefs or personality and thus behaved precisely as he had done.
You do not punish a child by telling them "You are an idiot" and requiring atonement for it. You punish the child's behavipur by saying "Your behaviour was idiotic" and requiring atonement for it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Not everyone has sexuality. You cannot assume that everyone developed the same way you did. I can be absolutely honest when I say that I was not in the least bit attracted to anyone, male or female, young or old, before the age of 12 or 13. Gay people often report that they felt 'different' from a younger age but it did not apply to me. (I felt 'different' for other reasons but then, I suspect, so does everyone.) If you had met me as a peer at the age of 12 in the right circumstances, I might have been willing to experiment sexually, but this does not mean that the attraction, which I regard as the core of the sexuality as it is the thing that is immutable, was not there yet.
I was also being rather specific regarding opinions and attitudes that one might possess at the age of 12. A sense of curiosity? A youthful open-mindedness? Certainly. A firmly-ingrained sense of homophobia based on experience rather than the bigoted opinions of one's elders? Unlikely.
I agree with Timmy and others that a bully must be made to appreciate the consequences of his behaviour, and if a certain type of punishment is appropriate then by all means it should be applied. But I do not believe that turning a 12 year-old child into a jailbird for the purposes of retribution is the best way to go about it. Blocking someone from going to the lavatory and name-calling are not (unless I failed to read something that everyone else is taking for granted) the same as physical assault. In a school situation, the law is surely a last resort, and only if the school is entirely unable to arbitrate. Perhaps American society is like that, but it depresses me.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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as far as crime and punishment.... dance and pay the piper.......
It does not matter one iota the age of the dancer.......
And yes ... everyone has sexuality.... everyone..... if you read my post i mentioned the bell curve..... take that to heart.......
Just a very few sit at one extreeme of the varied and copius varities of sexual proclivity it does not mean that they are without sexuality.... they just dont or refuse to acknowledge it for various reasons....
But it's there notwithstanding...
that being said..... believe what you will..... the rest of the world knows the score
[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2007 16:32]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Could you provide anything beyond your own experience to back up your claim that everyone (including all 12 year-olds) has sexuality?
I am not talking about sexual acts or the inclination towards those. I am talking about sexual attraction and I was specifically talking about children, not adults.
I did not have sexuality as a child. Bell curves or no, and regardless of where I might be on one, this disproves your statement. I have a sexuality now and I know perfectly well that I did not have it before the age of about 13 (perhaps there were a couple of hints that I might have been gay at 11 or 12, but nothing that would have enabled me to develop a fully-fledged philosophy about my sexuality).
Does an eight year-old have sexuality? A five year-old? A baby? I define sexuality as something that can tangibly be felt, not something that may or may not exist at some point in the next few years. It might be innate, genetic, environmental, whatever, but if it's not expressed until 12 or 13 then it's not a sexuality until that point.
I admit that I am only an individual; but I'm not the one making a blanket statement about everyone. I am not contradicting anything you might say about your own upbringing or your own experiences. On the other hand, you are trying to contradict my own experience, something only I can know, which simply does not make sense.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2007 16:45] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Can you provide proof to substantiate your position?
The true fact is that as long as you postulate on the absence of sexuality you will continue to be without it.
In life there are those that ride the carousel and those that sount thr revolutions from the sidelines...
who is the better for it?
Personally i would rather ride....
but you stand where you want..... you believe what you want.... no one can ever convince you of anything once you have set your mind to it....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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You are evidently not reading my replies; if we're at crossed purposes you're not bothering to explain where or why. Instead you're resorting to clichés which make no sense in this context.
Why should I need proof that at the age of 11 or 12 I had no sexuality? That's how it was. You're the one with the extraordinary claim that I did (if I read you correctly). Presumably you think I'm denying it just to annoy you?
>The true fact is that as long as you postulate on the absence of sexuality you will continue to be without it.
A huge non-sequitur and evidence, as far as I can tell, that you haven't read my posts. I do have a sexuality, and have since about the age of 13. I wish you would explain what definition you are using, as it seems to change from post to post. I have explained my own definition -- sexuality on the basis of attraction, not sexual activity. If attraction doesn't count then there are several people here who don't have a sexuality or aren't homosexual either.
>In life there are those that ride the carousel and those that sount thr revolutions from the sidelines...
Er ... ?
>but you stand where you want..... you believe what you want.... no one can ever convince you of anything once you have set your mind to it....
My problem is that you are suggesting that you know my 12 year-old self better than I, which is odd, considering that you weren't there and didn't know me at the time.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Sexuality in person is his or her knowledge of an existance of urges other that those of removal of body waste that bring a good feeling anlog witn the realization that ite feeling can be reproduced at will.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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you problem is that you can not concieve the idea that other 12yo's did have a sexual presence...
Not all are your small boat
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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The teacher was bang out of order to make the child write i am a retard.
she should have made the child write i am sorry i called the boy gay.
we must also appreciate that some kids use the expression very freely,
i.e. oh you are so gay. it is used quite often in the u.k. (working class areas)
life is to enjoy.
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Marc said,
>you problem is that you can not concieve the idea that other 12yo's did have a sexual presence...
I simply don't understand where you got that from. I have put in disclaimers throughout my posts to say that I only speak from my own viewpoint and it may have been entirely different for everyone else.
To go back to what I originally said,
>I suspect that *most* 12 year-olds are not mature enough to have a strong and valid opinion on matters relating to relationships and sexuality
What's the problem with that?
Just because a boy may have had a bit of nookie behind the bike-shed, this doesn't mean that he has to have an opinion on the morality of sexuality, appropriate behaviour and so on. Which is what the original topic was about. An understanding of sexual morality and related social issues takes years to develop.
Nor did I say that 12 year-olds cannot have a sexuality: you have yourself said that you did, and I'm taking you at face value. In my case, I said that I didn't, and I regardless of whether I'm in a 'small boat' or not, it's the truth, so you can hardly deny it. But that was a side issue to the original argument and I'm not quite sure why it's so important to you.
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That the teacher handled it inappropriately is, I think, obvious to all. As Timmy said, she should have addressed the boys behaviour rather than attack his belief system. I think the teacher acted in haste, unthinkingly, to try and correct a problem. She did attempt to explain to the miscreant and the class that 'deficiente' meant he was 'lacking' in sensitivity for one of his classmates. The court evidently accepted this as the suit was thrown out. Sometimes we need to read between the lines because news stories are rarely objective.
But no one seemed to want to comment on my reason for posting, which I expressed at the bottom of the news article. To whit, that it is the boy's parents that are the real culprits in all this. Perhaps he learned all his behaviour from his peers but I don't really think that is likely. The fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. Children need to be educated to think for themselves rather than blindly accept the prejudices of their parents. Failing that, this child will grow up to instil the same homophobic bias to his children - and on and on. Too bad the press didn't see this as an issue. I would hope that it would pop up in an editorial somewhere down the way - although not likely.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No......
Courts are for talking care of people that impose force on others.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Who the hell is talking about morality....
I am talking about the mechanics that kids learn about how a cock works.....
And how to make it work again and again.....
There is nothing moral about that..... there is nothing philosophical about that... there is nothing wrong or right about that...
I am saying that it happens... granted not to you... but you are the exception...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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But what does that have to do with the topic of discussion? I wasn't talking about it (not intending to, anyway). We were talking about morality, a 12 year-old's understanding of sexuality, and so on. That's got very little to do with learning how a cock works.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2007 19:45] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my..... you are so very wrong there.....
How the toys work is paramount in determining how the game is played....
The same goes for sex....
And anyone that has any inclination reguarding sex ..... is displaying sexuality......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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It's perfectly possible that a 12 year-old might be discovering sex; perhaps even with other people. But this does not mean he will automatically have given thought to the issue of homosexuality and whether it is appropriate to call another person 'gay' or 'girly'. This is something that requires thought, consideration, empathy, and it is *this* I was talking about in the first place, not sexual precocity.
Just because a 12 year-old might play with his cock it does not imply any sort of intellectual maturity on the subject of sexuality or relationships.
I am trying not to get sidetracked here, but perhaps the conversation is already irretrievably so.
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Marc wrote:
>…and yes a good stint in the juvinile detention center would drfinatly send a message that imposing physical force to intimidate someone is not to be tollerated<
This treatment is far to good for a twelve year old first time offender who has stopped another lad from going to the lavatory and called him girlie. You would have to feed and clothe him at the taxpayers' expense. It would be far more practical to roast him on a spit after torturing him and when he is half dead hang, draw and quarter him. At least he won't re-offend. Let's get a sense of proportion into this.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Who said anything about maturity?
As far as conversating it travels where it goes...
I see no problem with a thread that mutates into different areas of thought...
Just like coffee table conversation happens in the real world....
At lrase in the world i live in.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my... that does seem a bit extreme... but then again.... who knows...
I think i have well in proportion.... it was the boy doing the bullying that lost his perspective...
You are of course entitled to an opinion...
But that does not by any stretch of your imagination preclude me from mine.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I'm not sure I agree with your point, or I would have said so.
I am a parent. Before I came out to my son I and my wife brought him up to be tolerant. "Oh that is so GAY" still escapes form his lips today. He is not homophobic, but he speaks like his friends do.
He has many gay and str8 friends and a gay dad.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Maturity plays a great part in how schoolchildren act together. Bullying is immature behaviour.
I take exception to the conversation mutating in a particular direction if the other party is not reading my posts and twisting my words to mean something quite different from that which was intended. It means that every single response has to be a clarification -- and if every clarification is ignored it becomes extremely upsetting.
Right from the start I was not talking about the physical act of sex but the consequences of sex and the ramifications of sexual attraction and sexual difference. I do not believe that many 12 year olds have that on their minds when having sex behind the bike sheds and nothing you have said has changed my opinion -- not, apparently, that that was what you were talking about at all! If I mentioned my own situation it was only in an attempt to clarify my own viewpoint; it was not the main thread of my argument and I did specifically try (unsuccessfully as it turned out) to avoid an argument on how usual or unusual it was.
Anyway, I'm withdrawing from this thread.
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"Oh, that is so gay" was largely restricted to particular groups. I never said it and very few of those people of the same age in my house said it. It was not an unavoidable artefact of a particular style of upbringing; I remember that it was something that only really became fashionable in the year below at school. Why, I don't know, but there was evidently a collective decision to adopt the phrase and I don't think that those who did were entirely without blame. Even at that age one could see that it was a bit childish.
David
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I have a good friend who has 2 sons. One day I was helping him with something and we both heard the two boys talking and the oldest made the statement "That's so gay" My friend had a long talk with both boys. When the oldest one realized what he had said where I could hear it, he got very upset. He came to me hugged me and said he was sorry and I have never heard him say anything like that again. Children learn from each other and it becomes the in thing to do, but sometimes they realize that its wrong.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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As a rising 55 year old poof, I don't mind if a kid says it 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Oh that's so gay! ;-D
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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