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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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As I go through my life I am increasingly out to people. And yet I wonder why I am. Why do I need to be?
I was talking to a cousin I see very rarely on the way back from the hospital yesterday. We were discussing my mother, her mother, and so much else. I was busy trying not to cry, so was she. We managed ok. We got on to our individual upbringings. She had challenges I (naturally) never knew about. I had ones that she (naturally) never knew about. We started to trade challenges.
It's funny. I can tell her, but not her mother (her mother can be oversensitive about sexual matters). I have another cousin who is a habitual cross dresser. He has a business selling ladies requisites to gentlemen. She and I find that pretty unexciting. The rest of the family finds it scandalous and deeply hurtful - to them - and embarrassing.
So there are people I "am allowed" to tell and people I am not allowed to tell. There will come a point when I choose to tell one or two on the "not allowed" list, but that will be on purpose and as a hand grenade when they are being particularly homophobic.
I'm very interested in other people's feelings about my, or their circumstances. Why they are out and "how far out", why they remain in the closet and whether their concerns are real or imagined.
[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 14:27]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I came completely out when I was 19 and met Mark. I decided I was not going to be intemidated by what others think. Me nor Mark advertised or tried to hide our relationship. If asked I would tell the truth or if the conversation got around to gays. Im like you Tim, I love to drop a bomb on someone who is running their mouth being homophobic.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my.... This is not an easy thing to relate to for me.... First off i didn't come out... i was kicked out when I was 14 years old and a freshman in high school. This caused a series of cascading events that led to two suicide attempts in as many weeks, court appearances, formal dismissal from the local school system, incarceration in a state mental facility, massive doses of thorazene and a cocktail of other drugs that i had no idea about what they did but i think they were of a hallucinagenic nature, electro-shock-therapy, ice immsesion therapy (particularly painful), visual stimulation therapy coupled with shock therapy, and the remainder of me time strapped in full restraints to a bed for the remainder of the day and most of the night. add to that volleys of interviews with several so called doctors and the like asking for me to pronounce that i was no longer gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i would not. period!
and the bad shit happened at night...
[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 14:49]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I find the best bomb is "You find us all to be like that, do you?"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Just we three, then?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have found that among the older generation there are very few that were or are out. This is because of old fears, how others will react and all the crap we were taught. Slowly things have begun to change but its because of the younger generation who have decided not to be bullied and threatened. True there are many in the closet because of fear of family reactions. After they have moved away from home tho they come out. It has always been up to the older generation to teach and show the younger ones the way they should go. Unfortunately in the gay community this has not happned. In here at least a young man can get some guidance and answeres to his questions.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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I belong to a different generation from you, Timmy.
Most people do not know my sexuality. Not because I'm 'in the closet' or otherwise concealing anything from them, but because they haven't asked and I've never had a conversation in which it would be appropriate to volunteer the information. They might ask if I have a girlfriend, but in most cases I would smile and say no and that would be the end of it. If I were entirely straight it would be exactly the same.
On the other hand, if I had a boyfriend I would have no problem in saying, "No, but I have a boyfriend." This would apply regardless of which generation I were talking to. Grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, including the old-fashioned ones. If it were the truth then it would be perfectly appropriate in any circumstances. In any case, I can think of very few people in my family who would be scandalised by it; if there are a couple of odd people they are already perceived as odd by most of the family.
My sexuality is not something I would conceal for the purposes of creating maximum impact. To do so, in fact, strikes me as old-fashioned, a bit theatrical. How does 'You find us all to be like that?' help, other than to throw someone off-balance? Presumably it works better for older generations who honestly have not considered that anyone could be gay or bisexual to any degree. These days, in my generation -- or at least among the generation I am familiar with -- you don't have to be gay to be gay. Ordinary people might have gay relationships, but that doesn't make them any less ordinary. Finding out a friend is gay might still be a surprise, but it doesn't change our perceptions of all gay people when someone does come out, because it is and always has been a real possibility. That's the way it should be.
David
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In my youth “coming out” wasn’t even an issue or topic to be broached, no one came out but everyone knew about me. As an adult and I moved away from that environment I never made and an effort unless it was someone I was interested in on an deeper level hehe (sex), but even then most seemed to figure it out over time.
I have always felt “coming out” was unnecessarily confrontational on a certain level. In other words the people you know and care for and that care for you will figure it out, and the heck with the others.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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After a while, it just stops being something one thinks about. I know that this can seem incredible, and I know that the coming out process can meaning losing contact with some people who are unable to accept (as my father was).
But once that initial hurdle is over, it just becomes a part of who one is. Example: I started a new job yesterday. We had a delivery from "Viking Direct" - a firm of office suppliers. I was asked if I'd ever dealt with them before, and it felt entirely natural to say that "my ex had an account with them - he was self-employed and effectively running a small business from my spare bedroom, so I often took deliveries from them if he was out." It wasn't until after I'd said it that I realised this actually constituted me "coming out" in my new employment!
No drama. No visible reaction. Cool.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have never denied being gay... at first it was an issue because of things that were my fault but then afterward were out of my control.
Once the bullshit melted away life became the adventure... granted there were bumps on the road... but overall the gay issue wasnt really an issue... it was just a pary of who we were...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It is a testament to those activists, large and small, that your generation is able to consider simply existing rather than hiding the most (then) awkward secret there was.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Being a "late-bloomer" I have been spending a lot of time "reclaiming" my true identity. During that process I have realized how much people's attitudes towards homosexuality have changed, not only among the young generation but also among people at my own age. In fact, there have been moments when I have been absolutely overwhelmed by people's positive reactions. Coming out is therefore not the big issue it used to be, and consequently I'll probably be out to a lot more people than I ever thought I would.
While I no longer need to hide my sexuality, I have no urge to confront people with it either. My closest friends and family already know, and others will be told, but I'm not going to proclaim publicly that I'm gay. By doing so I would leave both my family and myself to the mercy of our town's dinner table gossip.
I have a few homophobic people on my "not allowed" list too, and I'm also increasingly eager to find the perfect moments to drop the bomb.
What really angers me is that there is still more than enough homophobia around to cause despair among young people who discover that they are probably gay. A few weeks ago one of my former students tried to commit suicide. Fortunately he didn't succeed, and he has friends who have shown that they are indeed his true friends.
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Of course it is. It is surely the best way. Acceptance not as different but as the same is the holy grail of integration. Sexuality is particularly interesting from that point of view as there is nothing physical about a person that makes him one way or another -- it's all in the mind, literally. I think it could (and should) be seen as even more fluid than it is currently.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Deej wonders 'why drop the bomb?' (I'm paraphrasing, perhaps too baldly).
My justification is twofold:- These people have exhibited homophobia for such a long time that their attitudes are apparently hardened, but towards gay stereotypes. This will debunk their beliefs about some gay people, even if it does not change their minds
- Every anti-gay statement they make hurts me, personally. They need, suddenly, to be confronted, in a pleasant yet surprising way, with the hurt that they cause with their attitudes.
It is, obviously, my own fault for not telling them before. I should have had better manners. But they, and people like them, are the people I 'had' to hide from.
Perhaps my waiting to do this gives them a greater importance than they should have, but they took this importance for themselves with their high handed attitudes while I have felt bullied and defenceless.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Five years ago... i think... I took a summer job managing the little variety store at the local ammusement parks campground... we sold well... a variety of things including snacks, milk and bread as well as beer... which made the store a soet of destination hub at that end of the park...
Well... jubs being what they are... days came and days went... until fathers day........
Fathers day at cedar point is the "unofficial" gay day... a day when 10000 or so gay people from the surrounding area gather to have a fun day at the park. there is no parade... just a little flamboiancy here and there... and a whole lot of groups of gay and lesbian people going about their business of running to rides only to wait an hour to ride.... just like the str8 people do... no one runs around ravishing cute guys... no one sets up a tea room... just a day at the park
Well..... you get the idea and perhaps can picture what goes on...
And then there was me.... gay as the easter parade and yet looking just like every other guy at the cameground.... average...
well..... the next day a man of about my age and my 'apparent' disposition walks in and begins lecturing me about the degrading and absolutly disgusting spectical he and his family had to endure the previous day at the park....
this went on for i have to say... a good thirty minutes and i smiled and nodded... after all i needed the job.... i was making VERY good money and i didnt want a red neck coming back to haunt me....
Bu one reaches a point when one has had enough and i had reached mine...
I looked out the window and spotted Kevy walking my way... as was his custon to visit and get a snack for his break... so a engaged the man in conversation to hold him there at the store and when Kevy walked in and to my side of the counter i planted a noce wet kiss on his mouth and said, "how is your day lover" .....
I actually heard the mans chin hit the floor.... he turned white and literally flew out .......
He was shocked... mortified... and outraged that someone would pose as a str8 variety store worker...
When he complained to the park managment and demanded that the damnabnle queer be dismissed ""i was informed later"" he was told that if they fired all the gay employees they would have to close the park...
After all we were better than 2000 strong....
Anyhoo... the man packed up and left.... good riddance...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Hi Tim, I know that Marc had a particularly awful time in his teenage years and I was strictly in the closet all my life.
I have thought about letting some people know "officially" what they have probably already deduced on their own, but I am not so sure it is a nice thing to do to some of the guys who have been friends with me all these years to have people start to question their relationship with me. In all but a very few cases that relationship was totally non-sexual. I would never say anything about relationships to anyone else who knew us both so that it would not cause any problems for the other person.
I hesitate now because it really will not make a difference in my life now that I am almost 68 but it could harm some who knew me. I dont think I would lose many friends at this time, but it just is not necessary now to reveal things.
I admit that for the longest time I was really being cowardly about it, but then when I seemed I had conquered being afraid of what some would say etc, that it occured to me that it could be a problem for some who have lived with me and they didnt need to be defending themselves to anyone.
I now have two guys living with me who are openly gay and in a relationship with each other. I have only said that I approve and it makes no difference to me at all. I am still not "out" and I will probably remain that way. It is nice however to have someone around that I can talk to openly about anything at all without worry of offending him. It is liberating just to be open about it with someone.
I guess if I were really confronted with it now, I would just let them think what they wanted and be upset that it would make any difference to our friendship either way. I would tell them it hurts to think that it would make them avoid me if it is true and go from there.
[Updated on: Wed, 04 July 2007 15:07]
Ken
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If you lose a friend simply because they realise you are gay then they were never a real friend to begin with.
Even the most hardened bigot should be able to look beyond the stereotype in the case of a friend. Friendship works both ways -- friends respect each other's opinions even if they don't agree with them.
I find myself literally unable to think about it any other way.
David
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Dear Timmy.
Thanks for posting this.^^
I'm still in the closet pretty much regarding my sexuality.
No one in my family's gay or bi so its kinda hard to talk about it to them. My mom knows im gay, so does my dad. And they don't have a problem with it, which is totally awesome! Cause I wouldn't want them to disown me or anything. I know my real dad would. I live with my mom and dad whose really my step-dad, but hes much more of a dad to me then my real dad. So I call my step-dad my dad. Sorry if that's a little confusing for you.
My friend's family members is gay. I go to see my friend a lot. She's awesome to hang with.
Peace. *hugs all*
~Josh~
21.
Love who you want to.
~Josh~
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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That you are right is a truism. But the fear is that you lose the acquaintance, perhaps the respect of someone you respect yourself. Friendship is a two way street.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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What if you adopted Deej's approach? I'm not saying "Adopt it", I am asking what would happen.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I see homophobia as a significant character defect, a mark of immaturity and lack of consideration for others. If a person behaved in such a way it would act as an impediment to prevent me from being anything more than reserved with that person.
You can respect a person's accomplishments without respecting their views; but I could not be a friend with someone whose views I do not respect.
David
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God, I love a happy ending! 
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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But if you were so unsure of their views and valued what you perceived as friendship, would you jeopardise that?
Homophobia is a learned response from peers. As a defect it is treatable.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Again, it's a generational thing.
To 'learn' homophobia in my generation in the UK -- at least, in the circles I move in, which are admittedly privileged ones -- you would have to be highly obtuse and ignorant. Or deliberately to mix with people who are.
Even for past generations, however, there is a difference between paying lip service to homophobic views -- going with the flow, so to speak -- and genuine bigotry. In the former case, however, I would expect people, now that such views are seen as undesirable, to rebut them. If they do not then I am inclined to suspect the latter.
David
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Timmy said,
>But if you were so unsure of their views and valued what you perceived as friendship, would you jeopardise that?
I would not view my relationship with someone as a friendship until I could be fairly sure I knew what their view would be on such an issue.
David
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You are exactly correct in how to address the issue of someone being gay or not being gay and it would be great if everyone did that!
Homophobia and outright violence towards gays is not dead by any means and it is not always a great idea to be openly gay; that is very unfortunate and I know it is mostly those who are older who keep that going by instilling those things in young people.
I am hoping that the way you approach each other in the current generation will eventually win out. You may not think you are making much impact at times, but at least I can see there is one less bigot out there to make life miserable for someone.
Ken
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I'm going to Ryan's Grandma's birthday tonight. As "just a friend", but half of his aunts and uncles know, even if they don't know I am living here. The other half will probably find out soon. The only person "not allowed" to find out is his Grandma, because she's 85 and might not be able to handle it. It's just better not to risk it, and there's little point in telling.
On my side of the family everyone knows. Though I'm not sure about my Grampa, but I've never had a close relationship with him. I don't mind if he knows or not, it's just not important to tell him.
So really there's only one person in my extended life "not allowed" to find out. Anyone else- I don't make an effort to tell people anymore, but I don't care if anyone finds out. And sometimes I do make a point of telling, but rarely.
It's such a small part of me. As I always say- I have much more in common with other "online gamers" than I do with other "gays".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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No-one in my family was gay or bi. You might be surprised how many people in your family find out once your parents know.
My mum told everyone. I didn't need to tell anyone but her. When she found out she needed people to talk to. So she turned to her family. They worked through it together.
Similarly Ryan, with his aunts that know. His mum talked to them all about it, then recently we found out one of his cousins is a lesbian.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Definitely agree with this. As much as I used to think homophobia existed, I'm starting to feel a lot of it is on the same level as racism nowadays. People might have racist beliefs- but they are beliefs and prejudices- rather than TRUE bigotry. At least in my experiences. Name calling is still bad, and group-think prevails, but the number of people that legitimately believe being gay is "evil", is quite small, at least where I'm from.
Gay kids will still be picked on- but then again so will geeks/ nerds, and fat kids, and racial minorities. People will discriminate against all these groups- but most of the time they aren't really, truly seen as inferior, especially when faced with an individual.
A lot of people discriminate against groups, but not against individuals from within those groups. And I think homophobia has moved even more in this direction.
People look at me first, and my being gay second. If they know me at all.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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