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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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At what age do you think young children should be educated, on the subject of being Gay/Lesbian, & do you think parents of today are mature enough or intelligent enough to explain it to there off spring or should it be left to the teachers.
one at a time please. only jokeing.
any spelling mistakes, please correct.
life is to enjoy.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Oh i can only talk about the interlec of some British People, because in london we send them to school but they leave i fear we a low level of ? for what ever reason.
life is to enjoy.
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As soon as they start asking questions, I'd say.
By the age of five, my niece had certainly worked out that some people grow up to love others of the opposite sex and become Mummies and Daddies, while some men (like her uncle) love other men and there's nothing wrong with that.
By age of eight or nine she was certainly aware enough to intervene when a rather effeminate friend of hers was taunted about his supposed sexuality at school - good for her!
However, there's probably no need to go into great detail of the mechanics of sex - either gay or straight - until age ten or twelve.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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When appropriate for the child. And by people appropriate for the child
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I would agree with NW that as soon as children are old enough to start asking questions, they should be told about relationships, straight and gay. They don't need to know about the mechanics of sex, which are much less important than love and commitment. The ideal case is surely that the questions are answered by the parents, throughout a child's upbringing, in a relevant and unbiased way. I don't think teachers could improve on that -- leaving things until later will only lead to curiosity and potential disinformation, if the curiosity is sated by the wrong person. However, neither should it be a taboo subject at school -- this would have the same effect among those whose parents had not discussed the subject with them.
It would be silly to make a disproportionate 'special case' for gay relationships, but if relationships are discussed generally at school, there is absolutely no reason to exclude alternative lifestyles. I have a suspicion that many teachers are reluctant to talk about anything they see as outside the 'norm', out of embarrassment or perceived lesser importance or even (though hopefully less than in the past) prejudice. This was the impression I went away with, anyway, from my own education. Hopefully this will change once my generation starts teaching.
In a related topic, I can still remember some pejorative words used by a couple of teachers when the subject came up, when I was 10 or 11 or so -- I don't suppose I shall ever have a chance to challenge them over them, but that I still remember them indicates that they did leave a lasting impression on me, and not a good one. Because such precious little was said on the subject, it left a bad taste in my mouth for several years, leading to growing embarrassment and anxiety about my sexuality. I suspect I got off very lightly, though, compared to so many people, so I can't really complain.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 25 September 2007 20:36] |
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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but what should be shown as he norm? at such a young age, do you not think it strange that you had a mummy & daddy but your friend had two mummy's or two daddy's this is assuming it to be you a a child of 5
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life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Since most children of 5 where I live have 3 uncles, and Paul who comes round on Friday, daddy went off years ago with someone else's mummy and they all go, kids included, tot he pub, what possible norm could there be?
I don't ask this to be in any way antagonistic, but reality is not 2.4 kids and a Cortina on the drive with a labrador.
And some of us who grew up gay would have liked to know that homosexuality was a minority normality instead of being closeted.
So, when appropriate for the child, in a manner appropriate to the age of the child, and by a person appropriate for the child.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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i think it'd be better left up to parents rather than teachers, because i just don't see teachers handling it well, expaining it to kids. plus then if you get the conservative parent throwing a fit because they're talking about gays and lesbians in class, you have lawsuits on your hands (at least, in Small Town, USA). schools these days though, SEEM to be more liberal...
but then again, you always have your handful of parents who want NO kind of sex ed taught in school, which to me is utterly ridiculous..
i started teaching my daughter about it when she was maybe 5 or 6. i had friends who were gay, and who also had children, so it basically is just as natural to her as "Man and Woman" is to the Straights.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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wow Timmy cool down i did not intend for you to blow your head apart.
i do not understand your point.
your wife teaches young children i am sure that she would have some understanding of my point. re think the situation and don't just take one view point.
life is to enjoy.
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Hey nicely put, i agree oh and welcome back.
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The point is several points:- there is no norm.
- In today's society the marriage for ever and family for ever is a myth
- There is no correct age to explain something to a child unless
- It wants to know
- it needs to know
- the only person who should give children information about matters such as sexuality is the right person for that particular child
Additionally, it would be highly beneficial for children who happen to have the mixed fortune of being gay to be given the information in a neutral, non judgmental and unbiased manner.
Equally it is beneficial to celebrate differences in class, while not needing to refer to any form of sexuality.
By no means all parents, of where my wife teaches, almost no parents, are in firm, loving, stable relationships. After school the mother takes the kids with her current partner to the pub and they spend the entire evening there. The point here is that there is no norm. Unless, of course, that is the norm
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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you seem to have a problem with lasting relationships, that has nothing to do with sexual preference,
go back to my original post.
life is to enjoy.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Jack....... Oh jack........ I know you are there......
I certainly hope you are NOT serious.
No parent with an iots of little grey cells would teach a child about gay/lesbain...
Children are best left to play on swings..... not to learn how to swing....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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perhaps they are born swingers?.
oh are you alright.?
life is to enjoy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You are missing the point. And I am answering your point about norms. The norm is that the children today do not experience a societal norm. So you cannot in all seriousness ask for a norm for this topic.
Or, if your question is serious, the answer is impossible to give.
So, let's be clear about your original question. I have also answered that.
It's kind of you to tell me to cool down.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No. They are born children. And we should allow them to remain children as long as we possibly can. They grow up very fast in the school playground already.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Jack..... If you are intentionally trying to provoke something i will be more than pleased to accomodate you.
there was more...... but i was advised not to come down to your level so i deleted it......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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jack wrote:
> your wife teaches young children i am sure that she would have some understanding of my point.
You have asked a question. That really is not making a point. However your question is phrased in such a manner as to seek to eliminate the answer of "I do not" (an opinion I do not espouse) Perhaps that is your point - to eliminate that answer?
> re think the situation and don't just take one view point.
I will take the viewpoint I will take. Equivocation is not my style.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Why would it be strange?
People only think things strange if they go against their expectations. If you tell a child that a relationship is only ever between a man and a woman, they will be bewildered when they come across a relationship between two men or two women. If you tell them that it is not always that way, it means they are less likely to view difference as peculiar later.
As for this word 'norm' -- as far as a child is concerned, sexuality is exactly the same as skin color or religion or anything else. You should never have to say to a child, 'this is what is normal and this is how things are': it might establish a norm, but it's very dogmatic. Instead, you can say, when they ask, 'this is how most people are, but it doesn't always have to be like that'. Only a very bad parent would say, 'It's normal to be white', 'It's normal to be Christian' (where 'normal' also implies 'ideal'), to the exclusion of other alternatives, because it will lead their child to see people who are not the same as inferior. It's much better to say, 'most people are like this, but lots of people are different, and that's fine too', as it encourages open-mindedness and acceptance. The idea of the norm is slightly fuzzier, but I don't see that as a problem. It's only a problem if you make it one.
David
[Updated on: Tue, 25 September 2007 23:30] |
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Deeej wrote:
> Why would it be strange?
>
> People only think things strange if they go against their expectations. If you tell a child that a relationship is only ever between a man and a woman, they will be bewildered when they come across a relationship between two men or two women. If you tell them that it is not always that way, it means they are less likely to view difference as peculiar later.
>
Exactly so, Deeej. My nephew and nieces have never viewed anyone being gay as strange or abnormal - because both my brother and my sister have gay couples as friends (as well as me as an out gay uncle), and have been used to it from a very early age.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Timmy is right. I started learing things about sex in the first grad. Mostly from 6th graders on the playground.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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(Peeps nervously round corner of bar, clutching large glass of Speyside Malt) ... sorry I haven’t been in touch, but things have been pretty difficult for the past few months. Everything’s pretty much back to normal now, though, and I was just looking round the bar, wondering who I could bore rigid (get your mind out of the gutter, Nigel!) when I thought of you lot.
So here goes; a short epistle on kids ‘n’ stuff.
It seems to me that Jack asked a fair question, but I agree with Timmy that there’s no clear-cut answer, because there are too many variables. How bright/inquisitive is the child? How capable/caring are the parents? How capable and unbiased are the child’s teachers? All of these factors will affect the answer. So let’s start from first principles – why tell children about sexual orientation at all?
It seems to me that there are two distinct, though related, reasons why we should do so. Firstly, in order to discourage homophobia among those who eventually turn out to be straight. Secondly, to help those who turn out to be gay to understand what that means, and to know that they are far from being alone.
My personal view is that ‘teaching’ should begin early, and in school – say at around six years old – but by that I don’t mean formal teaching about sexual orientation. The ideal would be to constructively develop Deeej’s point about creating a sense of normality about differences – be they of skin colour, religion, orientation, disability or whatever – by including examples across the whole curriculum. Even maths problems can occasionally involve two guys who live together! The main difficulty, I suspect, is that the politically correct lobby would get involved, and we’d end up with the kind of stilted material produced under the banner of multiculturalism. My ideal would be to avoid any sort of in-yer-face approach; instead, the concepts would be ‘drip fed’ over a period of years, slowly creating a sense that none of the ‘differences’ mentioned above were a big deal. With this in mind, I wouldn’t let a gay activist within a mile of any syllabus discussions!
That, though, is an ideal I don’t expect to see widely realised in the near future. Though the UK no longer has discriminatory restrictions upon exploration of sexual orientation in the classroom, neutral-to-negative attitudes remain widespread. A few education authorities in Northern England have however taken positive steps in the right direction, and the same may well be true elsewhere.
You’ll have gathered by now that I think schools should take the lead. Good parents will do the right thing anyway, bad ones (and in this respect they may be in the majority) will not, and their kids are the ones most in need of help. And, in this context, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ has nothing whatsoever to do with wealth, race, religion or social class!
Traditionally, I would have supported NW’s suggestion that there was no need to get down to the nitty-gritty before the age of twelve. That was certainly the case when I was a burgeoning teen, but I suspect that ‘maturity’ comes ever earlier. I’d suggest that formal teaching should probably begin at ten or eleven; by twelve, they know it all; twelve may be too late to change attitudes and, equally, it may be too late to begin to reassure those who need reassurance.
So, having rambled round the issue, as is my wont, I’ll attempt a personal answer to Jack’s question.
• For the reasons given, schools should take the lead;
• Schools and parents should begin ‘drip feeding’ the normality of difference from the age of five or six;
• Formal teaching, or capable parental instruction should be given at about eleven;
• For kids under eleven, good parents should answer honestly any questions which arise, but never before they are asked! And
• Every child is different, so keep the principles in mind, but play it by ear.
The approach seemed to work OK with my own kinds; in any event, they appear to be more sane and rational than I am!
What’s that you say? Oh, thanks very much! – I’ll have another triple malt!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Welcome back Cossie. I wish I could give you a big hug and a triple malt. Ive missed so very much.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The thing is, that set of learnngs about sex just didn't matter.
When I was seven a boy in my class was a witness against a guy who gave him a blow job. He had no idea what had happened. "I had to tell them he tried to bite my willy," he said. He was none the worse for his experience, and we ignored his 15 minutes of fame.
No-one actually understood sex with girls because it was improbable anyway. You just never believed that stuff because they had to be teasing you.
We got all the way to 11 or so where we learnt the mechanics of masturbation by sharing experiences (verbally), but that wasn't sex.
Clinically, they taught us about sex in class when we were 10. We found it irrelevant, except Michael, who decided his parents were disgusting for doing that and stopped talking to them for a while.
They answered "What does 'bugger' mean?" as "Something two homosexual men do to each other" and ignored it. We knew that homosexual men buggered each other, but had no idea what it meant, nor was it even interesting except to giggle about.
We were too young, and it just wasn't important.
The only thing we might have benefited from is a discussion, divorced from sex, about relationships, but along the lines of "When we grow up, some boys and girls find they love each other, some boys find they love boys and some girls that they love girls. It's more usual for boys to love girls and girls to love boys, but it's all pretty ordinary and normal."
That sets the scene for lack of persecution of the queer kid, just like other lessons set the scene for lack of persecution for the disabled kid.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I don't think anyone should be educated about "being Gay/ Lesbian". It's not really something you need training in...
Kids should learn that not all families are the same whenever they first start learning about families. Playschool, a TV show here targetted to preschoolers, had a "2 mummy family" on it, once. I think that is fine. Sometimes it has "1 daddy families" too. "Some families don't have children" is important to teach as well. A family is an arbitrary social construct, after all. The genetic family and biological family are two different beasts.
Once kids start learning about the mechanics of relationships, puberty and sex at 10-12 they should be given a comprehensive understanding of all the holes that things can be stuck in. "Sometimes 2 males or females might fall in love" and "some people try sex in different ways" are two perfectly neutral statements that sum up homosexual relationships and sex. Values aren't something to be forced by curriculum. Education is about learning and information, especially at that age. Opinions and values becomes more relevant at higher levels of education.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Welcome back, Cossie! Missed your input.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Cossie! Lovely to see you back. I've been missing your dissertations. This one is up to your usual standard. 
We were taught about male-female reproductive sex in biology lessons at the age of 11, but otherwise I remember virtually nothing about relationships, almost nothing about homosexuality, until I worked most of it out for myself in my early teens (well, not all the bits about sex -- but let's not go into that here!). This was not at all good as until then all the attitudes towards homosexuality had been either neutral or negative ('You're so gay!' or 'That's so gay!' in the playground -- Timmy has said that most people don't mean it as genuine homophobia, but if that's all one ever hears, one does make the association ...)
Oddly enough, the thing that started to persuade me it was okay was the attitude of the boys around me when I was 14 or 15, who were generally a liberal and intelligent lot, and not teachers, who simply didn't talk about it (these were still the days of that immeasurably evil thing, section 28 ... I'd have no idea if things have changed since its removal). If I'd not been with such a reasonable lot of people I might well have turned into some sort of bigot, because there were no positive gay role models I can remember at all. As it was, it was touch-and-go (I was not sure whether to feel awful or accept myself) until 16 or 17, around which point I came across this site -- it was the first time I'd actually come across gay people who weren't trying to be clandestine about their sexuality.
Um ... I'm drifting off the point rather, here, but I do think that if my schools had even mentioned homosexuality even in passing, with a slightly better-than-neutral attitude (rather than the uniform very neutral or slightly disapproving one), it would have made my life much easier between the ages of 12 and 16/17. It would have taken only a few sentences (I know that I'd remember them because I can remember many of the disapproving comments teachers made) but it would have done plenty for my self-esteem. Ah, well, too bad. It didn't happen. I only hope that progress has been made since the removal of section 28.
David
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 09:50] |
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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so pleased! your intellect is way above mine.
please say what you want, that is the idea, i welcome your opinion as long as you dont get personal.
i think this post deserved posting just look at all the good content that it has made surface.
Marc life is to enjoy please do . we dont know how long we will have it.
V
life is to enjoy.
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Cossie, what a lovely surprise! Welcome back. It's wonderful to read that you are on the mend: make sure you keep it that way.
HUGS from J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The concept of your oridional post is abhorant at best.....
Children do NOT need to know about gay/lesbian.... If they are gey or lesbian it will come to the surface in good time.... If they are not, then its doesnt matter to them.
I believe you posted this origionally to provoke a response.
It worked....
The sad thing is that i believe you have no true malice.... but beliefs are sometimes clouded and wrong.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my......
Its been a long time since ive read the words "queer" and "disabled" in the same sentence.
sigh.....
im going to go sit in the closet now.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Great to see you posting here again, Cossie!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Huggs tight.....
I've missed you.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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Marc wrote:
> The concept of your oridional post is abhorant at best.....
>
> Children do NOT need to know about gay/lesbian.... If they are gey or lesbian it will come to the surface in good time.... If they are not, then its doesnt matter to them.
>
> Why do you think that it is now acceptable to be gay/lesbian.
It is because the children and childrens parants accept that it is possible for your child or your best young mate to be gay. infact in the u.k. it is quite hip to go both ways.
the whole point is it makes no difference to kids they accept and dont hate.
life is to enjoy.
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Marc,
Maybe it is different in America, but I speak from my own experience, which is the British private school system.
Children DO find out about the concept of being gay at an early stage whether they like it or not. If you pretend they don't need to know yet, they will pick up disinformation and get a skewed picture of what it is all about. That is far worse than letting them know, at a level that suits them, in advance.
When I went to prep school (aged eight) suddenly people were using a new meaning to the word 'gay', which previously I had know only in the old-fashioned sense, all the time. Usually it simply meant 'bad' or 'rubbish', but sometimes a boy was labelled 'gay' and I naturally wanted to understand why they were using this word. If, when I asked my parents, I had been told what it really meant, and told that other children were using the word wrongly, then it would not have worried me. Instead I didn't really find out for years (I remember various definitions, but all accompanied with a disapproving look and a command not to use it), and by then the concept of gayness had been firmly cemented in my mind as something bad.
By the time my sexuality had come to the surface the damage had already been done. I didn't have an inkling whether I might be gay or straight until I was 11 or 12. But when I discovered I was, I felt very guilty about it. It *does* matter to all those people who grow up to be gay, and it also matters to all those people who won't be gay but need to learn to accept other people's sexualities.
David
P.S. I don't think, in this case, that jack was trying to provoke a reaction. You may be taking the thread too personally; no-one else seems to be getting upset about it. Talking about full-blown sex (gay or straight) to a five year-old is obviously inappropriate. But I don't see any harm in saying, 'some people have two mummies, who love each other just like mummy and daddy'. It sets them up for later in life when they come across gay or lesbian couples.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 September 2007 11:33] |
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Marc wrote:
> The concept of your oridional post is abhorant at best.....
>
> Children do NOT need to know about gay/lesbian.... If they are gey or lesbian it will come to the surface in good time.... If they are not, then its doesnt matter to them.
>
Marc, I'm going to have to disagree on his one. Kids DO need to know about gay/lesbian: at least here in the parts of the UK I know, they are likely to run into gay/lesbian couple who are friends of the family, or neighbours, or family members. Let alone the fact that they see gay people and gay couples on TV and in other media. I would worry a lot if we went back to a position where gay people were invisible, and there was no need for kids to know anything about gays!
One way or another, kids are going to know about being gay from an early age. The question really is WHAT they know, and who tells them. My inclination is that it's best if parents answer questions that naturally arise, in an age-appropriate way .... but that schools have a role to play as a second-tier / fall-back.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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Sadly they will learn in the school yard, then hopefully they will ask Mom or Dad, and again hopefully they will enlighten them to the degree that is necessary for the age of the child. If memory serves me right, we were taught sex-ed around the 7th or 8th grade, it was a big deal back then (No caveman jokes please!) and we had to get parental approval to attend. Homosexuality was very briefly covered by embarrased teachers, course we egged on the subject just to get her goat, I remember being threatened if I didn't let the subject drop.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In the lead post, the question was "At what age do you think young children should be educated, on the subject of being Gay/Lesbian"
Not if they should be made aware of gay and lesbian people in the world....
The word "being" is the indicator that denotes indoctrination into the club so to speak.
I do indeed have a major problem with adults teaching children the subtelities of "BEING GAY".....
It is wrong.... on any level....
and any person that thinks its right.... has serious problems....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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To know about ....... absolutly......
But that is NOT what was asked in the parent poet.....
At what age do you think young children should be educated, on the subject of being Gay/Lesbian
BEING...... not knowing about....... BEING!!!
There clearly is a difference here.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Re: young children. 
