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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I've been doing a lot of thinking about initial attraction. I am going to postulate, for you to tear to shreds, my thoughts. In this I am using the word "attractive" in its least sexual sense, as an adjective that means that we are attracted (wish to be close) to them.
I think that, when we see an attractive person, we probably do not think "Sex!". I think we think more about wanting to be in some way associated with that person, perhaps as a friend, perhaps as a companion, perhaps just to talk to them or be near them. But I do not think we immediately undress them and engage in sexual acts (in our heads).
Indeed one may see an attractive minor child and recognise that they have all the attributes except being sexually interesting of an attractive adult. In this there is no perversion, simply an aesthetic recognition of this simple attractiveness.
Sex then enters our heads ether because we have got to know them, or because we have not, and we fantasise about them. Except I hope we do not fantasise about the minor child as a minor child!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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I'm not sure if this what you wanted but you said "initial attraction". When I was a boy of around 10, I wanted to be around other same age but cute boys, so I guess I was attracted by looks. As I entered teen years it was a bit of the same, but now it was from a distance or in a group situation, as I already figured out my "problem". To this day I will eyef_ck any cute guy, but that is as far as I would go with it.
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"to be associated with them, perhaps as a friend, a companion,just to talk to them, to be near them". Yes, Tim, this is my first thought and feeling. Not sex. But emotional bonding in friendship. This is the most beautiful part of being attracted to some one. Desiring a feeling of trust, safety. But its working into something real, deeper, secure, is so rare. It's a gift. Thank you, Tim for expressing that.
Tad
Tad Durham
Belfast, Maine U S A
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What would be better to fantasise the minor child as?...... Would say, a cabbage be somehow more comforting?
I think these conversations do not need to have "a minor child" in the mix at any level.
But who am I to say.... One persona poison is anothers candy...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but I don't think anyone is capable of providing a definintive answer.
I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest, or fall out with anyone, but there are deep waters here, and for all the wrong reasons little academic charting has been done.
If you define 'attractive' as describing someone who catches your eye and whose physical appearance you consider pleasing, I seriously doubt whether the question of seeking platonic friendship arises. I'd suggest that your 'interest' is probably transient and superficial; if it isn't, it's probably sexual.
I think that seeking closer association with someone you find attractive is someting that comes later, when there is at least a tenuous link making such a thing possible. By that time, it's likely that you have some idea of the person's personality, and it's a combination of looks and personality which creates your reaction. (That, by the way, is the abstract 'you', not Timmy!)
But Timmy's reference to a minor child raises an issue of significant social and psychological interest. The hysterical overtones associated with paedophilia mean that the condition has not been subjected to any significant scientific analysis; in fact it CANNOT be properly examined because in today's climate it would be virtually impossible to assemble a study group which was typical, random and honest.
Taking a detached and academic overview, cross-generational sexual attraction seems to be pretty much as old as mankind. Certainly it seems ro be a common characteristic among Bonobos! It has been accepted at various periods in history; Ancient Greece is the best-known, but by no means the only example. In more recent times, it was fairly widespread in the European brothel culture of the nineteenth century.
It therefore seems logical to suppose that it is potentially a characteristic which can be transmitted, genetically or otherwise, and I suspect that it may even be a relatively common characteristic, at least among males. The number of prosecutions for accessing child pornography, as compared with prosecutions for child sexual assault, certainly points to such a conclusion.
But of course people who read murder mysteries rarely develop an urge to murder, and if watching violence on film or violent role-play on a games console engendered physical violence on the streets, society would have degenerated into total anarchy long before now. So why should cross-generaltional sexual attraction be different? I'm pretty sure that there are probably thousands out there who find 'cute' children sexually attractive, but who have no more urge to turn thoughts into actions than the mystery reader, the filmgoer or the gamer mentioned above.
Now let me make myself clear. Whilst accepting that it is not impossible for a cross-generational relationship to succeed - and for the purpose of this post I define a relationship as 'cross-generational' if one partner is under 18 and the other is over 18 and at least 40% older than the younger - I consider that the such cases are so much in a minority that it is appropriate for the law to prohibit sexual relationships with minors. My only caveat is that it seems bizarre to have an age of consent for sexual activity some two years below the age of consent for nude photography! It also seems bizarre to have an absolute cut-off date; relative age should surely a relevant factor, as is the case in several jurisdictions around the world. Subject to that, I regard any form of sexual activity with a minor as abhorrent and deserving of severe punishment.
That said, I'm instinctively a logical thinker, and I deplore the emotive hysteria which surround the subject and which has driven some recent UK legislation. What we really need is more research, to establish the real truth behind the tabloid headlines and, as an inevitable result, a better understanding of the issue and better comprehension of the characteristics which make someone a real threat to children.
Or do you think differently?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think you are missing the point somewhat. There are minor children who are attractive (not sexually) to be with, to play with, to be in the presence of. There is nothing sexual about this. Some children are a delight, others are repellent.
Perhaps you are taking my last line rather too literally, but I wrote it with a splitting headache, and it does look a little unclear. What I mean is that a sexual fantasy about a minor child, who features in the fantasy as a minor child, is undesirable.
But I don't want to divert this into yet another discussion about how unacceptable, legally and morally, it is to corrupt a minor. I was looking at a general discourse about attraction, not one about illegal activities.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Cossie said (amongst a lot else)
> If you define 'attractive' as describing someone who catches your eye and whose physical appearance you consider pleasing, I seriously doubt whether the question of seeking platonic friendship arises. I'd suggest that your 'interest' is probably transient and superficial; if it isn't, it's probably sexual.
I never defined it as either long lasting or transient. Nor indeed was I defining the friendship as platonic or otherwise. But I do know that it is perfectly possible to see an attractive person and not want to rip their clothes off and fantasise about body part interplay, and that it is perfectly possible to maintain that friendship without any form of sexual desire entering into it. One might "check the idea out" but it may simply not cause even a mild loin stirring.
I do reject the suggestion that the interest is transient and superficial. Consider the schoolyard. Who has sought ought the ugly kid as a friend? Don't we try to surround ourselves with people we find it attractive to be with? Is that transient or superficial? It can't always be sexual! Gay kids have good other gender friends and str8 kids have good same gender friends.
I find myself in agreement with all else that you have said, including deprecating the mediasteria over anythingh that will sell advertising.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am going to give this a shot, and give the best type of "answer" I can.
I am a make-up artist in my spare time ( all 2 hours of it  ) and I look at a lot of people and think they are attractive. Even small children. I look at bone structure,eye colour, skin tone, height, body type, hair style and colour, and loads of other things.
I often walk through a mall and look at people and think they really are good looking, with no sex in mind. I have on a number of occasions even told them so. It scares them all at first but I think eventually it sinks in that I am giving them a compliment.
People can be attractive without any sex involved.
"And so the lion fell in love with the Lamb"
"What a stupid Lamb"
"What a sick, masochistic lion"
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Timmy said,
>I think that, when we see an attractive person, we probably do not think "Sex!"
If we are aesthetically attracted to them, probably not. But we have nevertheless been brought up to respond to a pretty face, a smile, youth, healthiness. And we do, regardless of gender or age.
If we are sexually attracted to them? Well, from the number of comments I have heard from straight people watching members of the other sex (gay people too, but the ones I know tend to be more discreet) I would assume that most people do think of sex pretty much straight away.
We can rationalise it away, and often it is much easier and more socially acceptable to engage someone in conversation, to pursue platonic friendship -- and often much more fulfilling in the long run -- but I don't think this means that it is not there underneath. I find many women attractive in a non-sexual way, but this does not mean that I find them equally attractive to men, because (in most cases, though, incidentally, not all) the sexual element is not there.
I don't quite understand what you mean by, "one may see an attractive minor child and recognise that they have all the attributes except being sexually interesting of an attractive adult". There is no hard and fast rule here. There are people for whom a child would be sexually interesting. A person doesn't start being sexually attractive the moment he or she hits 18; it's all subjective.
David
[Updated on: Fri, 12 October 2007 10:01] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Deeej wrote:
> I don't quite understand what you mean by, "one may see an attractive minor child and recognise that they have all the attributes except being sexually interesting of an attractive adult". There is no hard and fast rule here. There are people for whom a child would be sexually interesting. A person doesn't start being sexually attractive the moment he or she hits 18; it's all subjective.
You are right. Hence my use of the subjunctive. One may also be sexually attracted to them (by which I do not mean that I give permission; if one is then one is!). Indeed there is nothing inherently incorrect in being sexually attracted to them. It is acting unlawfully on that sexual attraction that is incorrect. The thought police are not yet with us.
I don't actually care if people get turned on at baby beauty pageants, as long as they do not exhibit that to the child!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I would have to agree with Cosie on this one. I read or heard somewhere that a study had been done with boys who had engaged in a cross generational relationship. these boys had not been forced or raped. If I remember right the study found that there was no physical or phycological damage to the child. these relationships are rare, but they do occure. It is possible to consider someone attractive and not have perverse thoughts. There is a young boy down the street from me who does odd jobs around the neighborhood during the summer. Hes 12 going on 13 and is a beautiful example of humankind. If Im outside He will stop and talk. He is very intelligent and well spoken. He got all the right genes from his parents. Yes he is beautiful or attractive if you wish, but I have no attraction to him sexually. There are those children who will catch your eye and are a pleasure to be around and then there are the little monsters you wish lived in another country. This has more to do with upbringing than looks. You know it boilesdown to , Ugly girls dont date the football quarterback and ugly boys never make prom king.
Of course there is this "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". things or people can be beautiful for beauties sake.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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I think that there is a difference between attraction, love and lust. As far as attraction is concerned: I think it is all in the eyes. One sees something in the other person that attracts one - probably what one sees is physical but it may sometimes be something that can't be perceived with the physical senses.
I know that I am peculiar as far as attraction is concerned. There have been men in my life who have been enormously attractive to me (one in particular - and he's just popped up on Skype as I write this). I have very much wanted to see these men naked, perhaps kiss, perhaps cuddle; but I have never wanted to have "sex" with them.
I think that the urge for sex derives from love or lust, not from attraction.
That's my twopennyworth. Flame away. 
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, it's not the "who is beholding who" it's the "who is beholding the who who is doing the beholding of the boy beheld."
That is in where the misunderstandings occur.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Now that is the truth. I have a neighbour child like that too. And I feel a little afraid even to look at him.
But he's just a really lovely kid. Happy, sporty, larking about, and easy on the eye. But I feel guilty looking at a beautiful creature in case someone misconstrues my looking for lusting
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Why in the world would someone want to flame you for being attracted to another man. To me My Mark was the most beautiful man I have ever met or known. He was one of those men who was able to remain boyish looking. People who didnt know him always mistook him for a freshman student rather than a prof.
Hope you said hi to your friend.
If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think he's concerned about the desire to look rather than touch, but I can;t see an issue at all. It's one of the many facets of sexuality that we all have.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Re: Attraction 
Re: Attraction 
