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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The largest turn off to posters is when pedantry steps in the way of conversation....
That is what drives people away....
It is demeaning.... It leaves most people with a bad taste in their mouths.... It extends an air of superiority that drags down the (sometimes limited) self esteem of contributors.... and that keeps people away....
Just so ya know....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I tend to agree. However pedantry can, well expressed, bring a leavening of humour. In print it is not always what we say, it is how we say it. The eyes and vocal tone are important, and invisible.
Treading the line between amusing pedantry and pernicious pedantry is an art form in itself.
Now should that be "Just so you know...", or was that pernicious?
See the problem? It can be viewed either way.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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True enough.... but we have no artists here....
And as for ya quesrion.... what d'ya think?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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When I first started to read this board some years ago, the pedants knew who they were, everybody else knew who they were and it was a bit of fun. Unfortunately over recent times the fun has disappeared and one of the reasons is that some of those who make mistakes in grammar, spelling and clarity have tried to claim victim status for themselves or others and present making mistakes as a virtue.
I do not accept that it is rude to correct someone. One of the main methods of learning is by trial and error and without correction no progress is made. Sometimes people need to be corrected to prevent harm or inconvenience to themselves or others. The key of course is the way it done, the spirit in which it is done and the gracious or otherwise way it is accepted, and naturally the pedant opens up his own vulnerability, should he make a mistake in future. I pointed out one poster's grammatical error in a message where he complained about being so bored in an English lesson that he was mailing the MB. (Rudeness towards the teacher?) That was not intended as rudeness, but as irony. I am told, however, that irony does not cross the Big Pond well. Having stuck my head above the parapet I shall now quietly retire behind it.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I have this image of you trying to retire behind your head, now!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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The answer depends where you stand. I mean it as amusing, but it can be viewed very easily as pernicious
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All true.....
And yet,
And this is a BIG yet, No one comes here to be schooled. They come here for so many reasons but being gramaticaly precise is not by any means one of them.
As for rudeness toward a teacher... Well, I think it is rude of the teacher to allow their charges to become so mind-numbingly bored they have to search for stimulation elsewhere.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13801
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I remember in boring lessons the trick was to stimulate one's self.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I have to go with Marc and disagree with Nigel; I maintain that it IS rude to correct in public a poster's spelling or grammar in the context of this forum, because - as Marc rightly says - posters do not come here to seek instruction in those topics.
As regards boring teachers - well, like death and taxes, they will always be with us. But, in the UK at least, the national curriculum and the obsession with testing jointly conspire to take boredom to places it never went before.
Finally, Marc's comment 'There are no artists here' is a concise example of what I find unnecessarily offensive. If he had said 'I don't think there are any artists here', that would be OK with me; he's simply expressing an opinion. But 'There are no artists here' is expressed not as an opinion but as a fact - and I do not think that, on the evidence of his own posts, Marc has either the knowledge or authority to make such a statement. Oh, and in case anyone feels that I am regarding myself as an artist, there are at least two other regular posters who have at least as good - and very possibly a better - ability to express themselves in English than anything to which I could possibly lay claim.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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To be honest I can't say I agree entirely with Marc or Cossie.
I am a geek-elitist myself. I've been on the internet for a while and not so long ago, the internet was mostly for geeks, nerds and intellectual types. We took it as a matter of respect and of pride to be correct. We're the intelligent ones, after all! We can't afford to be wrong.
I was a part of an internet culture from early on where accuracy was equated with intelligence. And in part, I still hold myself to that. Although I've gone through phases, I don't like a lot of the sloppy use of language on the internet, because in most cases it is laziness.
I see a lack of care in writing to be rude. I seldom correct people, but I'd hope they'd be self-correcting. If they want me to care about what they write, then why not take care with it themselves? And if there is kind-hearted correction it should be taken gracefully.
Understandably people make mistakes. I don't claim for a second to have perfect English. But communication is obstructed by a lack of clarity. English does have some quirks, but by and large the written language is the way it is for a reason- it is easier to understand when used properly.
Of course, this is more a criticism of punctuation and abbreviation than spelling and grammar. But even if people have problems with spelling there are firefox addons with inbuilt spell checkers. Grammar is a harder one.
So you may talk about being rude by correcting someone. But give thought to the rudeness a lazy-offhand response may imply. Think about what you're going to say, how you're going to say it and put some effort into accuracy. People who are well spoken and well written are well liked. I, myself, will never criticise someone who makes a few mistakes. But if I can't understand what you are writing, then please, take some more time to communicate clearly.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but my comments were tailored to this specific forum, as I assume was true of other posters. If the banner 'A Place of Safety' is to have any meaning, this forum needs to be freely accessible, especially to young posters whose powers of expression may be limited. I'd suggest that it's important that they should not be frightened to make an approach because of any perceived linguistic inadequacy on their part.
I'm with you all the way on the courtesy point - the forum has a preview mode which makes it easy to correct unintentional errors, and thus failure to do so can legitimately be regarded as rudeness. Nevertheless, if posters nitpick about spelling or grammar in a way which isn't quite obviously humorous it will tend to discourage rather than encourage those who are less confident, and thus - I would suggest - we should not do it.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Perhaps I should just run everything I say past you first to see if it meets with your approval?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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If you're going to criticise others for being pedantic, then you should be prepared to accept some criticism of your own style. If not, then don't start a thread like this one.
Cossie's point is very fair and I am sure, Marc, you could have anticipated it if you had thought about it. I nearly posted something to the same effect. It may not be high art, but many people here write, for instance, and many others do not comment on their professional lives.
David
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I was brought up to believe that it is intolerably rude to explicitly correct another persons spelling or grammar etc unless specifically requested to do so (as, for example, some of my friends for whom English is a second or third language have asked me).
The "polite" thing to do, so I was taught, is to use the correct spelling or usage shortly afterwards.
This is probably a rather "inhibited English middle-class" approach!
It doesn't really worry me on a board like this how people spell or phrase their ideas - if I really don't understand, I can always ask for clarification. I seem to feel that here we are essentially having conversations - and conversational English has always been more informal and demotic that written English.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 November 2007 13:24]
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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